Life after death exist?

[woodworm]

Saw on another forum this link:
http://www.liberfoundation.com/pressroom.htm
What is you stance on life after death, step up to the booth
and lay down your vote!

[PacAce]

The Liber Foundation wouldn't somehow be related to Cloneaid and the Raelians, would they????

[kanwingshing]

I wish there is. But I don't believe there is....

[PacAce]

Me, too, but I'm making sure that my digicam gets buried with me just in case I'm wrong... :)

[marie]

I have no doubts!

I never had , in all kinds of everything which happened and I never (hopefully ; ) will...... have any doubts...... in a god of love being there , through everything, always

luv
marie

"I have no faith " the skeptic cries,
"I can only accept what I see with my eyes".....
yet man has to have faith or he would never complete.
just a simple task like crossing the street.
for he has to have faith in his manly stride,
to get him across to the other side.

and the world would be panic - stricken indeed
if no one thought that he could succeed
in doing the smallest, simplest thing
that life with its many demands can bring..
so why do the skeptics still ridicule
and call 'the man of faith ' ... a fool
when faith is the basis of all that we do -
and that includes unbelievers too

*******************************
in a myriad of miraculous ways
god shapes our lives and changes our days,
beyond our will or even knowing
god keeps our spirit ever growing
for lights and shadow and sun and rain,
sadness and gladness, joy and pain,
combine to make our lives complete
and give us victory through defeat....

"oh, love divine, all love excelling,
in troubled hearts you just keep dwelling,
patiently waiting for a " prodigal son"
to say at last, "thy will be done"

*******************************
in the beauty of a snowflake, falling softly on the land.
is the mystery and the miracle of god's great creative hand
the silent stars in timeless skies,
the wonderment in children's eyes
the autumn haze, the breath of spring,
the chirping song the cricket's sing
a rosebud in a slender vase,
are all reflections of god's face

*********************************
god is no stranger in a faraway place,
he's as close as the wind that blows cross my face.
its true I can't see the wind as it blows
but I feel it around me and my heart surely knows
that god's mighty hand can be felt every minute
for there is nothing on earth that god isn't in it -

the sky and the stars, the waves and the sea,
the dew on the grass, the leaves on a tree.
are constant reminders of god and his nearness,
proclaiming his presence with crystal - like clearness -

so how could I think god was far, far away
when I feel him beside me, every hour of the day,
I've plenty of reasons to know god's my friend,
and this is one friendship that time cannot end

**************************************
who can see the dawn break through,
without a glimpse of heaven and you..........
for who but god could make the day ,
and gently put the night away

[mpaul73]

Good question!

Here is a compelling argument for there being life beyond the grave:

If there is NO life after death then it follows that there is no such thing as ultimate justice in our universe. And you are saying that evil men such as Hitler basically got off 'scot free' for their evil crimes. Did such a man as Hitler get a fair 'measure' of justice for what he done? No.

How many murderers, rapists, child molesters, robbers etc in the US alone have not been brought to justice for their wicked crimes? Many will be caught and tried and jailed but many won't. When we hear about the murder of an innocent child on the news something in our hearts cries out for justice to be done. Why is that? It is because we live in a moral universe where there is right and wrong. We can't escape our consciences that constantly judge our (and others) actions as good or bad.

I challenge the reader to the belief that there is life after death where justice will be dealt out to each of us for the good or bad things we have done here on earth.

Again, if there is nothing beyond the grave then there can be no ultimate justice.

Martin Paul.

[Laziferous]

Sounding like C.S. Lewis there Martin. I totally agree with you, and Marie.

There is no hope in living now, if there is no life after death. What would be the point? Merely exist until death... and that's it... that's all. I just can't wrap my psyche around that concept... I know there is more... and I long for it.

[CyberDyneSystems]

er,.. what does justice have to do with photoplankton?

Sorry,. devout Atheist, evolutionist, and scientist.

"I stood in the fire light sweltering,
the blood stained on my chest like a map of a violent new continent.

I felt cleansed.

I felt the dark planet turn under my feet
and knew what dogs know that make them howl like babes in the night.

I looked at the sky through smoke heavy with human fat,
and god was not there.

The cold suffacating dark goes on forever,

and we are alone.

We live our lives, lacking anything better to do.
Devise reasons later.

Born from oblivion,
bear children, hellbound as ourselves,
go into oblivion.

There is nothing else.

Existance is random,. has no pattern
save what we imagine after staring at it for too long.

No meaning save what we chose to impose.

This world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces.

It is not god who kills the children,
not fate that butchers them,
or destiny that condemns us to flames.

It is us,. only us. "

[Laziferous]

It is not god who kills the children,
not fate that butchers them,
or destiny that condomns us to flames.

It is us,. only us.
Very true.

We are our own worst enemy... all of humanity is against itself.

On a different note... science and faith aren't necessarily contradictory. In fact, they are only estranged spouses... who will reunite someday, to ALL of our amazement.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Laziferous wrote:


... science and faith aren't necessarily contradictory. In fact, they are only estranged spouses... who will reunite someday, to ALL of our amazement.

I buy that!

Well said indeed.

[G2Jim]

I definitely believe in life after the physical death of our bodies. One reason is the numerous accounts of people who were clinically dead and the similar things they experience and relate when brought back to life. Another is the fact that energy does not cease to exist - it only changes form.

There may never be enough evidence to convince skeptics, but my experiences and perceptions lead me to believe our physical presence here on earth is merely our current form. Either way, it's a good reason to appreciate all the little things that we can experience with all our senses today. Love life - for you never know what tomorrow will bring.

[marie]

:)

hi all,
just a few of my thoughts......

every christmas we celebrate over 2000 years of christ's coming on earth....

this man came on earth , he suffered and died and then rose from the dead.
All just to show us the way..
the truth ..and the life.

its only by prayer that the actions of that man can be made real in our hearts
as, by prayer our hearts open to what really matters.
humble and quiet , leaving ourselves open to something bigger then ourselves.

If we answer only to ourselves we make ourselves a god
and therefore our thoughts words and actions are of our own making.

when we answer to a higher source, that source, which is deep down inside us all
(because he who made us is spiritually deep down inside us all ) then we see all our own little faults
our eyes open differently to how we ourselves are, as persons. how we treat each and everyone around us at any given moment.

only god, the god who made us in his image and likeness knows us completely. utterly, totally and completely.

there is no getting away with anything
he knows all.
he loves us and wants our love.
think of someone who loves a lot, do they not need love ?
well, I think of this god and wonder,
if he loves so much, well then he must need it in return
regardless if he is a God almighty..... or not.
regardless if he is incomprehensible.. or not.
he must need it so bad he made many many of us
wanting to share all he has with us all
if not in this life
well for sure in the next.

I know there is evil and evil men.
it all starts like a little seed.
each and every one of us is capable of starting a little evil and it gets bigger and bigger, like ripples in a pond when you throw a small stone
so we must stop the little evils .
small things which may cause anger.
anything at all.
if we want to stop the bigger evils which grow and mature
we stop the little ones

we are all responsible for our own actions.
watch the small things and the big things will looks after themselves.
only goodness and kindness will help to stamp out evil

not always easy.
in fact it gets harder because we learn more when our minds are more open to the holy spirit
and so we are aware of the little misunderstandings in our everyday lives
and our 'reactions' to all and anything which happens to us matter .....always

when christ was on earth he spoke in parables,
clothing his words with an air of mystery that men not perfectly understanding, might delve deeper into the wisdom and the glory of his teachings.

Not in all of his parables did Christ explain to those who listened.
For each one then as for each of us today was meant to bring his own understanding to these mysteries, to seek and find that which he was capable of finding.

We must find not merely with our own intellect but with the added grace and wisdom that the holy spirit pours into our hearts, in order that we might understand still more and believe and marvel, trust and love.

So in his own strong words and forceful phrases using vivid images, Christ the gentle , the man of steel,
the shepherd of sheep , wrapped up his words
of heaven and immortality and its attainment, in the comforting simple idioms of the life of everyday.
He spoke of fishing, of baking , of shepherding and sweeping.
He spoke of birds and of the air, of field lilies and mustard seed, of fishing nets and the good wine that men drank.

He clothed the words of heaven in the language of everyday, uniting the spiritual with the material,
so that men who live among the material may see through it all a glimpse of heaven and know that through these things we come at last to the safe
harbour which is the vision of Christ and our home.

Christianity is a carnal religion.
it was made for man by a man, because christ through God was man, through and through.
So may we, so must we use these things of life and humanity to grasp the meaning of Christ's words and promises. whose manhood and godhead is the
vision that we seek.

its only on my knees that I see more of everything of what its all about .
and God is within us all.
we are made in his image and likeness
If we deny God we deny ourselves

its not an easy life.
myself, I will always need God
first ,before anything.


friend
marie


this being one of my favourites
psalm 26 ...maybe its ok to 'share' :)

( slowly )

~ The lord is my light and my help,
whom shall I fear ?
the lord is the stronghold of my life
before whom shall I shrink ?
O lord,
hear my voice when I call;
have mercy and answer .
of you my heart has spoken;
'seek his face'
it is your face that I seek,
hide not your face
dismiss not your servant in anger;
you have been my help.
I am sure I shall see the Lord's goodness in the land of the living
hope in him,
hold firm and take heart
hope in the lord
the lord is my light and my help ~

and on a more personal note

thank you God.............
for everything.
I could not have done anything without you

yours, forever
and ever
marie

[oops]

Very nice, Marie. As always, thank you for opening your soul as a messenger for the spirit. Not a popular position in today's world.

Most of the Psalms were King David's plea to God after he had screwed up big time. My kinda' man! Like David I have never been accused of hiding my sin from those around me.

Life after death?

Did Christ really die? I mean REALLY die? Images of Uday and Qusay are a nice example of an old time Roman execution. Jesus looked no better. Do you think these guys are coming back from the dead with enough proof and conviction to start a religion?

I doubt it. As an EMT for 15 years I have seen more dead folks, kids included, to last me an eternity. Gunshots, suicides, car wrecks, heart attacks; there is no difference. Dead is DEAD. There is no coming back. That's the Bad News.

Here's the Good News. I have heard that Jesus, torn as he was, returned after three days in the grave. Think about it. Three days will not produce a fresh corpse in that region of the world unless there was some divine intervention. Jesus reportedly rose from the grave and returned to his people over a 30 day period convincing them that he had scored a victory over Death. This would not be an easy task for a faker with a hole in his side so large that a man named Thomas (sceptical little fart, from what I hear) could insert his whole hand inside. Gross, but effective.

Still wonder? That's OK. Many do. Those that witnessed his return were hung on crosses and executed to get them to renounce what they had seen. Some were torn in two parts between bulls. Some were be-headed. The women who claimed to have seen Jesus alive after death were bound at the Roman Games and their hair was doused in pitch and burned as torches to light the games. Strange that they would never back down from what they had seen, even as their children were murdered as they watched before their own deaths.

They could not stop the evil, their job was simply to die. They did, however, cry out over hundreds of years and, imagine this, I heard them one night. I opened my eyes and saw what they saw: Jesus alive and risen from the grave.

If Jesus didn't rise from the dead then there is no life after death and no forgiveness of sins. Period, end of story.

"If I see it, I'll believe it."

No, If you believe it, you'll see it.

[marie]

oops.
not easy at all. expressing ones inners :)
men are much better and so much more logical when explaining (mostly )

you have explained something in a way which I never could have.
but wanted to.
I really appreciate and concur with all you say.

thank you

everyones opinion here on the post is very interesting
and very valuable


regards
marie

[Servant]

Hi everyone,

What an interesting topic; thanks to all who gave thier views on this. Please read the following very carefully:

Imagine if a new Federal Law allowed the U.S. Transplant Association to offer COLD CASH for the donation of a human eye.

What if doctors said they could remove an eye painlessly, in one hour, and replace it with an identical false eye—leaving you with one million dollars, tax free, in your hand.

Would you sell an eye for one million dollars? Maybe. How about both for fifty million? No one in his right mind would. Your eyes are priceless, but the Bible says you should despise your eye compared to the value of your soul - the life that peers out of your eyes. Jesus said that if your eye causes you to sin, "pluck it out and cast it from you," for it would be better to enter Heaven without an eye than to go to Hell with both. He also said, "Whoever looks at a woman to lust after her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Have you ever looked with lust? Bearing in mind that we have only looked at one of the Ten Commandments, on Judgment Day (when God exposes your every thought and deed), will you be innocent or guilty? You know that you will be guilty, and therefore end up in Hell. That's not His will. He sent His Son to take your punishment: "God commended His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." We broke God’s Law (the Ten Commandments), and Jesus paid our fine. Then He rose from the dead and defeated death. Pray something like this: "Dear God, I repent of all of my sins (name them). This day put my trust in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Please forgive me and grant me your gift of everlasting life. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen." Then read the Bible daily and obey what you read (see John 14:21). God will never let you down.



Sincerely,
Servant

PS Are you a good person? Good enough to go to heaven? Take this short test and find out - http://www.livingwaters.com/good/001.shtml

[CyberDyneSystems]

Ahh yes,, the old "only those good enought to be in my club can go to heaven" clause....


I wonder,. Is John Geoghan there?

He is part of your club.

[Laziferous]

I wonder,. Is John Geoghan there?

He is part of your club.
I hope not.

Although this thread may not have many readers, and the ones that do choose to read, don't usually reply... I would still like to make something clear.

I am a person that has a faith in a supreme deity. I believe that deity to be the God of the Bible. Now, before you categorize me with all of the other so called "Christians" in this world, let me explain:

I don't associate myself with 99% of people who claim to be Christians. Their behaviour I find to be shameful, and poorly reflective of their beliefs. Hypocrites, unwilling to humbly admit their faults. Very stubborn, and almost incapable of remembering how they might have been before claiming the Christian faith. A show to be displayed, full of commercials, designed to entice the viewer to buy what they are selling... and for what? Do they really believe it themselves? It's almost impossible to tell from their actions. I'm not buying what they're selling. I am a consumer that likes to research the product for myself. Read reviews... speak with other consumers... exchange information.

That being said, I'll add a little more. Although I despise the hypocrisy of these people... I find myself guilty as well. The only difference is, I openly admit to it. I know that I do things contrary to what I believe... everyday. I wish it weren't so... but hiding from it, or avoiding it, will only take away any respect that someone that does not share my faith may have had for me. If I say I believe in this God, and this book, and agree with what is within... do the opposite... and then try to hide it... I will become a joke. Just like those I have described have become. I am the first to tell you I don't have all the answers. I don't understand it all. I still doubt... not frequently, but it happens. I make mistakes everyday.

Also, beating people over the head with scriptures has never been an effective technique to pique someone's interest to want to know more. At least in my opinion anyway. Love is what gets peoples attention. Being real.

I have so much more to say here... but have suddenly become very apathetic. I know many "Christians" will disagree with me, and I don't want to debate. My apologies to anyone I have offended, it's not my intent at all.

Those of us that believe... let's be real. No one wants to listen to a used car saleman, peddling eternity.

Those of you that do not, just search your heart for real, and challenge God to reveal himself to you (if you really want to know). If he doesn't... you're off the hook. The only catch is... you have to mean it when you ask. Half-hearted requests don't count http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smile4.gif

I wish only the best for EVERYONE.

[Servant]

Laziferous wrote:
I don't associate myself with 99% of people who claim to be Christians. Their behaviour I find to be shameful, and poorly reflective of their beliefs. Hypocrites, unwilling to humbly admit their faults. Very stubborn, and almost incapable of remembering how they might have been before claiming the Christian faith. A show to be displayed, full of commercials, designed to entice the viewer to buy what they are selling... and for what? Do they really believe it themselves? It's almost impossible to tell from their actions. I'm not buying what they're selling. I am a consumer that likes to research the product for myself. Read reviews... speak with other consumers... exchange information.

That being said, I'll add a little more. Although I despise the hypocrisy of these people... I find myself guilty as well. The only difference is, I openly admit to it. I know that I do things contrary to what I believe... everyday. I wish it weren't so... but hiding from it, or avoiding it, will only take away any respect that someone that does not share my faith may have had for me. If I say I believe in this God, and this book, and agree with what is within... do the opposite... and then try to hide it... I will become a joke. Just like those I have described have become. I am the first to tell you I don't have all the answers. I don't understand it all. I still doubt... not frequently, but it happens. I make mistakes everyday.


I agree with you Laz and I'm really glad you brought this up. True Christians struggle with the flesh everyday. Look at what the apostle Paul wrote:

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
(Rom 7:18-19 KJV)

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(Rom 7:24 KJV)

If Paul struggled with sin, then we will too. I don't like it one bit but it's a fact of life. Is this an excuse for sin? Absolutely not! There are many people naming Jesus Christ that do not show "any" outward change at all. They live exactly like the world does and I would seriously question the validity of their relationship with Jesus Christ. We cannot "con" God and if our heart is not repentant (truly sorry for our sin) then we are only fooling ourselves.

As a Christian, I think that the desire to be more like Christ needs to be a driving force in our lives. We are told to "run with patience the race that is set before us". I have a long way on my journey and I get discouraged at times, but I must press on and seek righteousness. Can I earn heaven? No way! It’s a gift of God. Can I live any old way I please? No, that would be obscene to say the least. If Christ died for sin than living an immoral, sinful life with no desire to change is utter hypocrisy.

These are just a few of my thoughts on the matter and I’m most glad to share them, after all, that’s what this thread was started for.


God Bless,
Servant

Check out the "good test": http://www.livingwaters.com/good/001.shtml

[CyberDyneSystems]

Laziferous and Servant,.

My quip was aimed directly at Servant's "test"

"am I good enough to get into heaven?"

This just rubs me the wrong way,. it assumes to much and is too reminiscent of the crap spewed by so many about who gets to be saved and who doesn't.

The establishmnet and maintanence of these "Who gets into heaven" Clubs brings us nothing but BAD things. It brings us the worst aspects of Catholicism, it brings us religious hatred,. it brings us car bombers and jihaad.

That is my issue with Servant's "test"

My jab was not intended for Christianity as whole,. and I apologize if that is how it was interpreted.

[Laziferous]

My quip was aimed directly at Servant's "test"

"am I good enough to get into heaven?"

So was mine.
This just rubs me the wrong way
As it does me.
The establishmnet and maintanence of these "Who gets into heaven" Clubs brings us nothing but BAD things. It brings us the worst aspects of Catholicism, it brings us religious hatred,. it brings us car bombers and jihaad.

I absolutely agree.
My jab was not intended for Christianity as whole,. and I apologize if that is how it was interpreted.
It wasn't taken as such... no need for apology. Even though we differ in our beliefs, I think we're on the same page.

[Servant]

First of all I'd like to ask you all to take this in the spirit of Love, as that is my sincere intention here. I am writing this to clarify my position as it has obviously been misunderstood by some. I'm going to ask "myself" a few questions and I will try to answer them as clear and concise as possible:

Q: Have I ever told a lie?
A: Yes
Q: What does that make me?
A: A liar

Q: Have I ever Stolen anything?
A: Yes
Q: What does that make me?
A: A thief

Q: Have I ever taken the Lord's name in vein?
A: Yes
Q: What does that make me?
A: A blasphemer


By my own admission I’m a lying, thieving, blasphemer and I have to face God on judgment day. According to the bible I’ve earned eternity in a place of torment called hell. This is "BAD" news and it’s very important that we know this. I implore you to read the bible and find out if I’m telling you the truth about this.

The "GOOD" news is that Jesus Christ came to this earth 2000 years ago for filthy sinners like me. He (being without sin) went willingly to a painful, torturous death on a Roman cross to pay the penalty of my sin. He then rose from the dead three days later and defeated death. If you repent of your sins and trust Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior you will be given eternal life in a place called heaven. I hope to see some of you there one day so please take this message to heart and make the right choice.


Sincerely,
Servant

Take "The Good Test": http://www.livingwaters.com/good/001.shtml

[Leighow]

Interesting discussion. I for one, am quite content to wander this world and contribute as best I can, when and where I can. So far, I have been extremely lucky and spared great agony and pain. But it is fair to say that I remain puzzled -- but not frightened -- by creation, the vastness of the universe, the role a god would or could play on earth, and what "heaven" might offer!

But .. I "hay me doubts" about life here after, not that I have not browsed a reasonable number of scholarly texts, as well as presentations by TV evangalists such as Billy Graham, Jack Van Imp and others. Also, I am unclear about "justice" in so far as I am unclear about "evil" where, for example, mental illness may be the cause.

These days, I limit my quest to understanding the work of Rene Girard. While Christian he has devoted his gifts to helping one better understand the likely evolution of religion over time. That said, I do appreciate your motives, personal experiences, and stands on this most complex and controversial subject.

May the force be with you.

HOWIE

[stopbath]

Big question!

Well, I do believe in life after death, but I don't really think we continue to exist as we are at the time of death. We sort of progress towards our ultimate selves.

So, what happens after we die?

I think one of three things could happen:
1) we get reincarnated: Higher class being if we were good, lower class if bad.
2) We reach heaven or some resemblance of it.
3) We go into limbo until we do 1 or 2.

Do I believe it? Not sure. I've not seen this to know it, but it seems plausable. I like the connectivity that this scenario brings to all living things.

If there is a God, I would expect It to expect It's creations to respect all It's other creations. (Note on the use of It: I don't see God as having a gender (He or She), as God has no need to copulate.)

[CyberDyneSystems]

From a scientific point of view,. i know that energy can only change,. it can not be destryed entirely. We as living beings are indeed filled with energy. so upon death the enrgy can not just disappear,. our matter also continues to exists after our energy no longer animates it.

In this sense I agree that there is something beyond death,.. but I do not believe in a conscience beyond death. Even if our "energies" (soul if you want to call it that) is reborn somehow,. who are we too expect that it reamins whole and or undiluted by others energy. The energy if "recycled" to create my life force at birth,. did it come from one place or many?

[Red Soldier]

I'd like to believe it, but I just can't. Same goes for most religions. I would like to have some faith in any religion, but I just can't bring myself to it. Christianity just feels fake to me. It's almost as if they try to scare you into believing, and if you don't, there's hell to pay... Quite literally as well. They want me to believe in Jesus, go to church every sunday, give donations, etc... Just so that I can go to heaven. Eh, I guess religion just isn't my thing.

*I don't mean to offend anyone here, just my two cents*

-Tony

[Belmondo]

My wife is Catholic. One of the few things her church espouses that I can agree with is the notion that ‘faith is a gift.’ Not all of us have it; in truth, many of us are incapable of it. It would seem illogical that those who lack the gift (i.e. faith) would be deprived of the rewards of heaven by a benevolent God---a god who is the only entity capable of bestowing such a gift.

We’ve been exposed to all the explanations, rationalizations, and dogma of all the major religions. Who’s right? Buddhists? Moslems? Christians?

Only God knows, and he (she) is sending very mixed signals.

[MediaMagic]

Welllll what the heck. I may as well jump into this one as well.

I was raised southern baptist. Went to private "christian" school, studied to be a minister. Played lead guitar in a Christian Rock band for over a decade and even released a CD. Decided the whole conceptual design was ridiculous. The whole hell concept is a self contradiction. There cannot be a reconciliation between the idea of a benevolent, loving God and the idea that this same God believes that eternal torture in flames which will never end or consume but merely present eternal pain to the "non-believers". Also, other words such as "destruction", "perdition", etc. have to be redefined as "eternal seperation from God" rather than the literal definitions. And I've heard it all, "God love people but hates sin", etc etc etc... I've preached it myself.

Now there are ways to lessen this contradiction by looking at the original hebrew or greek texts. The greek words for "eternal" are aonios and aeon. These are used interchangeably except in reference where the word "eternal" is translated with the noun form of a verb, e.g., eternal damnation, eternal fire (to burn), eternal condemnation. So, eternal damnation doesn't mean that the act of damning is eternal, but that the act occurs once but its effect is eternal. This is the only way "hell" can be feasible. That the act of burning occurs once, but the effects are eternal. In other words, all evil truly is destroyed as stated several places in the biblical text, but contradicted in other places as becoming "eternal torment". However, for destruction to be true, there cannot be a torture chamber in God's basement where there is eternal suffering("...all these things have passed away...").

Well, enough of that... let's look at something else. We are taught lessons such as, if we have water, but pass a thirsting person on the side of the road, withhold our aid, and this person dies, we are guilty of murder because we had the means to help but selfishly did not. This is not a lesson from the biblical text, but a lesson inspired by tje spirit of christian care and love. Well, since God is all powerful and all knowing, and can manipulate anything and everything, and people still starve, die of thirst God must then be held to the same standard we would be held to. He did not use his resources so should therefore be guilty. This is of course lunacy and only mentioned for the purpose of iterating a concept, not a literal defining of the responsibility of "God".

I am now agnostic I suppose. I believe if there is/was a god, he perhaps created the laws of physics, maybe stirred the first primordial soup of amino acids, perhaps set evolution in motion, and let everything else happen as it would, but does not get involved in day to day affairs (again back to the die of thirst thing, if he choses to render aid with a bias, then he is not worthy to be God).

I guess I believe there may be karma, perhaps a "force" of good, but even that is a stretch for me. I mostly believe we are "machines", made of flesh and bone, with a brain for a computer, but still a machine. We function through normal physics (electricity, chemical reactions, etc.) and there's just nothing overwhelmingly special about that.

If you have faith and belief in some religion, I have all the respect in the world for you. This is simply a brief (very very very brief) synopsis of what I personally believe and why. If there is a god in control somewhere, that god is nothing like what the religions known around the world proclaim. I fully believe religion is simply a means of control, nothing more or less.


Enjoyed reading everyone else's input here. If you have a God, may He bless you and watch over you.

David

[ilya]

I don't believe in any supreme being, but I do believe that on the outside chance that there is an afterlife and judgement day (and I don't, this is only for my thesis), that if I'm fundamentally a good person, that nothing bad will come to me.

I think that any argument that opposes this basic statement in the name of religion actually goes against the fundamental purpose of whatever religion.

My other belief is that life is short, and one has to do the most to leave a footprint, and create some sort of meaning to one's existence. Whether that's defined by the children you raise, or the work you do, or yes the photographs you take, doesn't matter. So long as you do things with a purpose, sense of pride, sense of humor, and a smile.

That's my 2 cents.

[ilya]

I don't believe in any supreme being, but I do believe that on the outside chance that there is an afterlife and judgement day (and I don't, this is only for my thesis), that if I'm fundamentally a good person, that nothing bad will come to me.

I think that any argument that opposes this basic statement in the name of religion actually goes against the fundamental purpose of whatever religion.

My other belief is that life is short, and one has to do the most to leave a footprint, and create some sort of meaning to one's existence. Whether that's defined by the children you raise, or the work you do, or yes the photographs you take, doesn't matter. So long as you do things with a purpose, sense of pride, sense of humor, and a smile.

That's my 2 cents.

[marie]

hi all


re what ilya says

"My other belief is that life is short, and one has to do the most to leave a footprint, and create some sort of meaning to one's existence. Whether that's defined by the children you raise, or the work you do, or yes the photographs you take, doesn't matter. So long as you do things with a purpose, sense of pride, sense of humor, and a smile. "
unquote
~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~


just a few words .........


I posted this before but its a long time ago
I think it makes sense whatever anyone believes >

http://www.pbase.com/image/16778343


I have no doubts in a God who loves us dearly .....

sometimes our intelligence goes beyond the very 'simple' facts.

simple facts which are far more important then always having to have very logical thoughts in everything

http://www.pbase.com/image/17648936

lets just love each other .

the message is simple
faith is simple. ~ if we want it to be ~

a block can come because something more is expected of everything....
reasons etc
lets not worry about what is meant to be a mystery anyway.
its all very very simple.
much more simple then some would ever believe.

but first,
it needs humble simple acceptance of what we 'don't ' understand and how frail we really are ,
and then a different understanding comes..

but in time,
and only when we are ready and open to it.
there is no going back when that happens
and there never will be any doubts again
(not saying it will be easy either)

its important doubts are there, and to wonder why you question the doubts
it means questioning the opposite too...... faith.
its only natural.

but don't stop at one or the other.
love needs all the action you can give it
in a world needing it very badly
the rest will happen...
just be open to it

best wishes
marie

ps

thank you for the good wishes at the end of your interesting post david
I just want to say also.... that god 'never' manipulates.
he gives us free will.
always.
we have to make the decision to follow his way
rather then our own.
why there is so much trouble in the world.
'his ways' have gone by the wayside a lot.

'seek and you will find'


~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
st. theresa of avila's maxim

~~~ let nothing disturb you ~~~
nothing frighten you
all things are passing
God never changes
patience obtains all things
nothing is wanting to him who possesses God.
God alone suffices.

[Erin]

God is a creation of man, otherwise 'He' would be called
'She'! (I'm a male Erin) I believe that we are on a journey to somewhere and this existence is one of the realms we go through. I also feel that we have to 'earn' a promotion to the next step e.g. we may have to sit the exam here a few times to be elevated. Ever met what is termed an 'old soul'? a person with great wisdom and compassion that may be young in years.

[marie]

Hi Erin
God is a 'he' alright.
and I have no problems with that at all.

the prayer jesus (when on earth) gave to the disciples when teaching us ' how to pray ' is the prayer 'Our Father' which covers just about everything in a few words, important things for our journey through life ......

this is copied from a page in my prayer book so there are a few other lines added on at the beginning and the end of the Our Father's prayer,
the words of which were actually spoken by the son of god.


http://www.pbase.com/image/21754782

and 'our father' in heaven hears our prayers, always.

best wishes
marie