How do I get into sports photography?

[ben4633]

Ive been thinking about trying to get into sports photography and make a few extra bucks. Not sure exactly how to do it or if its even possible. High school sports, little league etc. Ive heard of photographers just going to events and shooting the athletes and passing out business cards with their website. Do they even let photographers into high schools to shoot basketball or volleyball games. Is there enough money in it to justify my time? If so, what is the best way to move forward? Not expecting to make a ton of money but maybe a few bucks to justify the time out and a bit to offset the cost of my photography habit. Any tips or suggestions would be greatful.

[DC Fan]

Ive been thinking about trying to get into sports photography and make a few extra bucks.

Get in line behind the countless people who have the same idea, and get ready to have some interesting conversations with the shooters who already have become an organization's "official photographer" and may not like the competition.

First, learn how to take pictures at sporting events, and learn how to produce prints and files right after the event is over - when the customers want the product. Then, get ready to spend a few months getting to know the people who organize the events you attend, to gain their confidence and trust. You'll also need to learn the rules, written and unwritten, of the sports where you want to make sales.

[squires]

This blog had some interesting info on the subject.

http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2009/archives/4945#more-4945

[Cozmocha]

I like that article.

[sch_photo]

The biggest thing to watch out for is exclusive contracts. Some schools, not all, will have a contract with a photographer to do all of their photography work for the sports teams. This will include all sporting events. Even if the photographer is not at every game, you are still in violation of the exclusive contract. If you go and start shooting images to sell and the school has an exclusive contract don't be shocked if you get a cease and desist letter from a laywer.

I have contracts with two local schools and I am very protective of those contracts. Now I am not going to ask a parent or student to put a camera away, but if another photographer tries to edge in we are going to have words. My contracts state that I am the exclusive photographer for all sports teams and individual athletes. In return I provide all the images back to the school for the yearbook and reserve the right to sell those images to the parents and individual athletes.

You might try to get a start by working on a freelance agreement with a photographer that does a lot of little leagues and high school sports. I got my start by shooting for a photographer and it gave me the chance to make a little money on an hourly rate and get feed back on my images.

[MJPhotos24]

Ive been thinking about trying to get into sports photography and make a few extra bucks. Not sure exactly how to do it or if its even possible. High school sports, little league etc. Ive heard of photographers just going to events and shooting the athletes and passing out business cards with their website. Do they even let photographers into high schools to shoot basketball or volleyball games. Is there enough money in it to justify my time? If so, what is the best way to move forward? Not expecting to make a ton of money but maybe a few bucks to justify the time out and a bit to offset the cost of my photography habit. Any tips or suggestions would be greatful.

This reminds me of the old hanging sentence "if you have to ask..."

Of course it's possible to make money shooting sports, thousands of photographers do it, but it's getting harder and harder each year. Every team has a parent with camera and you have to go above and beyond producing results they can't get, after all they are almost always giving away free CD's of images at the end of the season or even week to week! Most photographers fail, and there's tons - and I mean TONS - of talented photographers out there working other jobs right now because it's just that difficult.

Schools and leagues you need permission, you don't just show up and shoot. Any time I'm going to a school or event the person in charge has already given me permission, even last year when my cousin invited me to shoot his daughters championship game on a last minute whim my gear didn't leave the car until the league president gave the thumbs up. You do NOT want to step on toes, you do NOT want to create a bad name for yourself.

Money wise, it really depends. There's events that do well and there's events that do horrible. Just showing up and shooting randomly you're in for one rude awakening to be completely honest. If you're talking about higher level stuff and landing those gigs and making money, you're in for a nightmare awakening. Those jobs are disappearing fast! It sometimes takes years to find a niche, an area, or something that does well in sports - even then though year to year you just don't know if it will be there. I had my best year ever in 2010 by far, hope 2011 is even better but who knows...I don't!

Honestly, sounds more like want to just half a$$ it and shoot some games here and there and hope for some money in the end. That's not really how it works! Used to tell the kids I coached if "you put in half a$$ effort you get half a$$ results", and it is a life lesson. I honestly do that in winter season because it's my time off, don't do it for money but more to keep up and practice and if it sells fine - NOBODY though is getting anything free even if it is practice. For the most part though any shooting in Dec/Jan besides two I fly out of state for is just practice and honing skills, trying things, etc. You can take a wild guess how much money I make during that time frame, it's not very good! 95% of my income is made Feb-Nov.

Also, think of what you need before you shoot sports. You need insurance, though many schools or leagues don't bother to ask, you better have it if something happens. Kid falling out of bounds and you're shooting under the basket, (s)he cuts his arm up and mom calls the lawyer because he's scared for life.

So, all in all it's not easy, but it can be done if you do it right.

Best way is to find niches, leagues that are not covered well, sports that are not easy for the parents to get good images in. Of course that means you need lighting gear (strobes) and/or fast glass - preferably both. You find an "in" and shoot, but showing up just when you want won't be worth it - you need to cover a lot of games, and the ones that mean something. Playoffs/all-star games, something special. There's plenty out there to cover, the problem is finding it - I love shooting the local youth league, kids are awesome, parents are great, but besides T&I the game action sales are horrible. So I'll spend my time elsewhere to make a living, have to be decisive, do the research, etc. If it's about making money head to the T&I market more than game action market, it's best to do both, but T&I does better than the games almost always.

[CatchingUp]

The biggest thing to watch out for is exclusive contracts. Some schools, not all, will have a contract with a photographer to do all of their photography work for the sports teams. This will include all sporting events. Even if the photographer is not at every game, you are still in violation of the exclusive contract. If you go and start shooting images to sell and the school has an exclusive contract don't be shocked if you get a cease and desist letter from a laywer.

I have contracts with two local schools and I am very protective of those contracts. Now I am not going to ask a parent or student to put a camera away, but if another photographer tries to edge in we are going to have words. My contracts state that I am the exclusive photographer for all sports teams and individual athletes. In return I provide all the images back to the school for the yearbook and reserve the right to sell those images to the parents and individual athletes.

You might try to get a start by working on a freelance agreement with a photographer that does a lot of little leagues and high school sports. I got my start by shooting for a photographer and it gave me the chance to make a little money on an hourly rate and get feed back on my images.

Not sure if I totally get the having a 'contract' that makes you 'exclusive'. I can understand you taking the T/I shots to sell, and providing the yearbook with pics...but how can you legally exclude 'competition' ?

I've done reasonably well the past few years doing pretty much what you are doing, but with no contract. Granted, I live more in a rural area and not many people around here do what I do but I shoot a ton of game events as well...post pics on a web site, etc. And while it is great having no competition cutting in on my business, I for the life of me can't imagine telling some new photographer who started showing up at high school football games and taking pictures that he has no right to be there. How does one get away with that?

[CatchingUp]

This blog had some interesting info on the subject.

http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2009/archives/4945#more-4945

Very well written...he about covered it all.

[jcpoulin]

Mike presents many good points and covers the topic well. People need to realize that you don't click the shutter, post the pictures...and people come flocking to you with money. Working with leagues provides access for sure. Many leagues require something back for this as well...I have done 10%-15%of sales and this appears to be the norm for my area...and must be considered. In return, they send out emails to parents for publicity. Also, if you are doing multiple locations, you are paying gas etc. Website costs, insurance, gear updates need to be included. You need to do something different then parents....Don't shoot from same sidelines...shooting side-by side the father who is shooting is not helpful! Get to the endlines where parents are not allowed, and most officials may allow. Gear has to be considered... a picture taken with a 300 at 2.8 looks different than a picture taken at 300 5.6......people see it!

Lastly, know your demographics....know what areas/sports where parents have the resources to purchase...shooting inner city basketball may not yield the same sales potential as suburban hockey....just the cruel reality!

[NGC2141]

The thing I have run into with most sports organizations locally is that someone already is contracted to do it. What I did was offer to shoot events as a contributor and then built a portfolio of their league. When the other photographers contact was due for renewal I applied and was selected. I was contracted for three youth leagues last year for action photographs. This year I stepped my game up and now I am shooting at the college level. We also have a new Double-A baseball team coming to town so I will be trying to get my foot in there as well.

[sch_photo]

Not sure if I totally get the having a 'contract' that makes you 'exclusive'. I can understand you taking the T/I shots to sell, and providing the yearbook with pics...but how can you legally exclude 'competition' ?

I've done reasonably well the past few years doing pretty much what you are doing, but with no contract. Granted, I live more in a rural area and not many people around here do what I do but I shoot a ton of game events as well...post pics on a web site, etc. And while it is great having no competition cutting in on my business, I for the life of me can't imagine telling some new photographer who started showing up at high school football games and taking pictures that he has no right to be there. How does one get away with that?

The competition part comes every one to three years when the contract is up and open for other photographers to submitt proposals. Typically the contract renews with no issues, but anyone is welcome to submitt a proposal.

My point is that I have put in the time, effort, and energy to get my products a services as good as I can. I invest thousands of dollars every couple years in newer better equipment. After all the work I have done what business does some "Debbie Digital" have coming in and selling images for 50% less than mine or for that matter yours. While yes my quality is way better, what parent won't "settle" a little to save a few bucks? So I just wanted to point out that while yes you can do it, just watch that you don't cross a line and get yourself black listed with the local photographer gang.

The 800 lbs elephant in the room by far is Lifetouch. In the past they have used some very shady business practices (free vacations to the pricipal, thousands of dollars to the yearbook staff, etc...) that killed loacl photography businesses (in my area at least). Since they were called out on these practices it has opened up the doors a little, however the schools that they do still work for they are extremely defensive of. So just watch your back.

My suggestion would be what Mike said. Do a little recon first and make a phone call to the Athletic Department or ever the high school office. Find out if they have an exclusive first. If they do call or visit that photographer and ask. You might get told no or you might get a green light, but ask around first.

[dmwierz]

What I did was offer to shoot events as a contributor and then built a portfolio of their league. When the other photographers contact was due for renewal I applied and was selected.

Let me ask: by contributor, do you mean you worked for the contract photographer or you shot them for free?

[dmwierz]

I'm gonna go a slightly different direction than some of the other bits of solid advice by asking a few questions. Firstly, what is your ultimate objective? How serious are you and how far do you want to go? How hard are you willing to work to get where you want to go? Is it to shoot pro events; youth: high school; take pictures of your own kids? Do you have a feel for how much money you would charge per event; per shot; per day?

Despite what you might hear to the contrary, there are really no shortcuts to developing your skills. Many aspiring photographers want to start out by shooting the NFL, or even NCAA. Games at this level are serious business, and folks covering these events are there doing their jobs...not just trying to a make a "few bucks to justify the time out and a bit to offset the cost of my photography habit".

If you're looking at building your experience, my suggestion is to contact as many of the local youth sports photographers you can locate via a Google search of your area, and offer to work for them as a second/third/etc. shooter. You can make some money this way and learn a lot and develop/refine your skills. The exact same skills are required to shoot youth sports as are used in shooting pro or college, but the pace of the game is slower and the conditions aren't normally as severe and access isn't as restricted as it can be shooting pro/college. You will still have to be able to take sale-able images, though, as these companies aren't out there, working their tails off, for fun.

After you have your skills locked down, there are several ways to shoot high school sports, some independently and some through national prep sports organizations. Once again, though, these companies are expecting you to already know what you're doing - they are in this to make money along with you, and won't let you learn on-the-fly. If you go your own way, be sure you have adequate liability insurance and again, know what you're doing.

Now, if you are wanting to cover pro sports, things get a lot more complicated. At this level, the competition is extremely tough, the money isn't so great, and the expectations of the speed, the quality and the quantity of your work are at the highest level. You are expected to get "the shots" at least as many times as the other shooters working the event, and in addition to having your photography skills totally nailed down, you have to do all this on deadline, meaning you'll not only have to shoot the game, but you'll have to review all your images, select those to be used, edit them (tone, crop, straighten, resize, etc.), caption the shots and transmit them, all DURING the game. It's not for the faint-hearted or for those who don't do well under pressure.

Does this help?

[sch_photo]

I'm gonna go a slightly different direction than some of the other bits of solid advice by asking a few questions. Firstly, what is your ultimate objective? How serious are you and how far do you want to go? How hard are you willing to work to get where you want to go? Is it to shoot pro events; youth: high school; take pictures of your own kids? Do you have a feel for how much money you would charge per event; per shot; per day?

Despite what you might hear to the contrary, there are really no shortcuts to developing your skills. Many aspiring photographers want to start out by shooting the NFL, or even NCAA. Games at this level are serious business, and folks covering these events are there doing their jobs...not just trying to a make a "few bucks to justify the time out and a bit to offset the cost of my photography habit".

If you're looking at building your experience, my suggestion is to contact as many of the local youth sports photographers you can locate via a Google search of your area, and offer to work for them as a second/third/etc. shooter. You can make some money this way and learn a lot and develop/refine your skills. The exact same skills are required to shoot youth sports as are used in shooting pro or college, but the pace of the game is slower and the conditions aren't normally as severe and access isn't as restricted as it can be shooting pro/college. You will still have to be able to take sale-able images, though, as these companies aren't out there, working their tails off, for fun.

After you have your skills locked down, there are several ways to shoot high school sports, some independently and some through national prep sports organizations. Once again, though, these companies are expecting you to already know what you're doing - they are in this to make money along with you, and won't let you learn on-the-fly. If you go your own way, be sure you have adequate liability insurance and again, know what you're doing.

Now, if you are wanting to cover pro sports, things get a lot more complicated. At this level, the competition is extremely tough, the money isn't so great, and the expectations of the speed, the quality and the quantity of your work are at the highest level. You are expected to get "the shots" at least as many times as the other shooters working the event, and in addition to having your photography skills totally nailed down, you have to do all this on deadline, meaning you'll not only have to shoot the game, but you'll have to review all your images, select those to be used, edit them (tone, crop, straighten, resize, etc.), caption the shots and transmit them, all DURING the game. It's not for the faint-hearted or for those who don't do well under pressure.

Does this help?


Very well put... translation if you have the head and stomach for it, get ready for a ride...

[philwillmedia]

I've posted this several times elsewhere on POTN - people are probably sick of seeing it.
It's essentially related to motorsports photography but the principles are the same for any sport.
It's a bit long, I know, but It covers most things you probably need to know and, dare I say, it tells it like it is.

A quick few words about my background.
I started my motorsport photography over 20 years ago when I stopped competing in rallies.
The biggest problem I and fellow competitors had back then was getting pics of ourselves.
When I finally parked the rally car, I still wanted to be involved. I picked up the camera and started taking pics at club level events to national championship level from spectator areas and selling them to competitors.
After a while I started submitting to a couple of motorsport magazines. It took a while but eventually, after about 3 years, I started getting some images published and then it snowballed from there to the point where I was able to get accreditation.
Today, I cover all types of motorsport and supply several magazines and agencies with images. I have also covered a number of different sports and events for image libraries including Federation Cup Tennis, International Netball, Wrestling, Pro Golf, AFL Football, International Soccer, Pro Cycling and several other sports and events. Later this week I will be coveruing the World Tennis Challenge in Adelaide.

Firstly, what is your reason for wanting media credentials.
Are you a member of the media?
What can you give the organizers by your presence?
Media creds are usually only given to WORKING media. This means people working for and supplying bona fide media outlets ie: Magazines and newspapers and other recognised media outlets such as websites and press agencies.
I’ve been shooting sport, mainly motorsport for over 20 years, and still do club level and grass roots sports.
I supply several magazines and newspapers as well as photo agencies.
I often get asked…
”How do I get a pass to shoot from where you are?”
My reply usually goes something like this…
“How long have you been photographing (insert name of sport) and what outlet do you work for?
To which they reply something like…”Oh I never do. I just want to get in and shoot from where you are. I’m just taking photos for myself”
Ask yourself this…
If you’ve never taken a photograph of an American Football (substitute for any sport) game, would you approach the NFL (again substitute relevant organization) and say to them “Hey Mr NFL Media Man, I’ve never taken a photo of a grid iron game before but I think I’m a pretty good photographer, I’m not shooting for anyone except myself so you won’t get any publicity but can I have a media pass for the Superbowl…"
Seriously, what do you think they would say.
It would probably be cool to be there and you’d get off on it and brag to your friends, but seriously…
Unless you are working media, why should you be there.

Media credential's ARE NOT a free pass to get in to an event.

Admittedly, sometimes I have seen some people with creds who probably shouldn't have them - and people who probably should have them who don't - however it's not for me to make that decision.
I do sympathise with people who wish they could get creds for events and can't.
Event organizers are after publicity. You shooting for yourself does not give them that publicity and they do not have an obligation to give you a media pass just because you think you should have one. It is up to you to justify why you should be accredited.
Remember that the 'togs you see shooting at a track or sporting event etc are being paid by somebody therefore IT IS A JOB. They are not there for the fun of it.
Imagine if somebody came into your work place and thought it looks like cool job, do you think they'd just be able to start doing what you were for the fun of it?
Also, there is a whoooole lot more to it than just standing by the track and taking photo's. There are deadlines (sometimes very short) to meet and as a rule I would suggest that for the same amount of time spent trackside there is at least 1/2 to 3/4 of that time to be spent on editing, sending images etc when the day at the track has finished. If you spend 8 hours at the track, then you will usually spend another four to six hours, at least, once you have left the track on editing etc.
I attend a lot of events where I don't have creds so I do know what it's like from behind the fence or in the bleachers, but I still manage to get good and sometimes great images.
It makes you see things differently and find different angles and ways of shooting.
I'd estimate that about 50% of events I go to, I don't have the magic press pass and pay to get in like everyone else.
Sometimes I'm just there for being there, and sometimes it might be a sport I've never shot before but want to see what it's like. Occasionally I do manage to sell some images.
Also, just because you have good gear doesn't mean you should be there either.
I've seen some 'togs with basic DSLR's and kit lenses take some better stuff than guys with 1D's and white lenses (and Nikon equivalent). I occasionally use a 400D with the 10-22 lens and have had those images published. I also use a sigma 10mm fisheye.
In closing, I will say this...
THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS.
If you want to have creds for big events, start shooting the grass roots of that sport (no it's not glamorous like the big events - but you'll probably make more money) and start supplying images to publications etc.
This is a great way to get yourself known to event organisers. They learn to know who you are and that you are committed to photographing their sport and being known is half the battle. This is not going to take 5 minutes and may take several years, yes... I did say years.
To do this you need to have passion for both the sport and your photography.
You must be prepared to put up with the elements, rain, hail, shine, and depending on the hemisphere, maybe snow (not generally an issue in Australia) etc etc.
Just like any job, sometimes it will NOT be fun and just plain hard work.
It just depends on how hard you are prepared to work to get there.

Except when learning to swim, always start at the bottom.
I see too many people trying to start right at the top. it doesn't work that way.

Apologies if this appears blunt and straight to the point, but it is fact.

[NGC2141]

Let me ask: by contributor, do you mean you worked for the contract photographer or you shot them for free?

They used a contracted photographer for team and individual picture packages, but they did not do action shots. In fact, no one did. When I spoke to the league they told me I was allowed to shoot as a contributor and provide the images to them for their use but could not sell them. I contacted the contracted photographer and offered to shoot the actions photos for them in exchange for using them in my portfolio and they advised me that they didn't do action photos and had no need for them and that I was free to shoot them and provide them to the league. I took them up on the offer and shot them.

[cecilc]

.... that I was free to shoot them and provide them to the league. I took them up on the offer and shot them.

So let me re-ask Dennis' question: You shot this for free ? And then provided images to the league ?

[steve535]

[QUOTE]So let me re-ask Dennis' question: You shot this for free ? And then provided images to the league ?/QUOTE]

I have shot for free but only for a couple of reasons. First, I don't feel my photos are at that level yet. If a parent wants me to have something printed then yes I add on for my expenses . Second, my son is on the team and they are his friends so I don't mind taking some action shots for them.
I did have a parent submit one of my pics to a local paper and it got used. Our local pays $75 per and I was out of luck. I did get credit for it if that means anything.

[NGC2141]

So let me re-ask Dennis' question: You shot this for free ? And then provided images to the league ?

Yes, I shot them for free. I have done a lot of shoots for free for my kids teams. My two sons were on two of the teams so I shot them for a DVD for all the parents and the league uses them on it's website. There are actually about 5-10 parents that shoot the games then we pool the photos for a DVD.

[NGC2141]

Many of our local leagues, colleges, and pro teams use contributing photographers. There are limits on what you can and can't do, but it's fun to get out there and use my camera.

[MJPhotos24]

Many of our local leagues, colleges, and pro teams use contributing photographers. There are limits on what you can and can't do, but it's fun to get out there and use my camera.

Please tell me you're not going to colleges and pro teams undercutting shooting for free just to pump up your own ego.

[NGC2141]

Please tell me you're not going to colleges and pro teams undercutting shooting for free just to pump up your own ego.

Not at all. They all use contributors to shoot the events, there are about 6 of us total. The difference between us and the paid guy is that he gets priority for using flash and he gets to shoot the team pictures, along with a paycheck. We get freedom to enter areas that normal fans can't go. For instance, we get to shoot from the baseline at basketball and go into the dugouts at baseball. We also get to use strobes if the paid guy is not attending. We get experience and build portfolios while enjoying the games.

[Flores]

Not sure if I totally get the having a 'contract' that makes you 'exclusive'. I can understand you taking the T/I shots to sell, and providing the yearbook with pics...but how can you legally exclude 'competition' ?

I've done reasonably well the past few years doing pretty much what you are doing, but with no contract. Granted, I live more in a rural area and not many people around here do what I do but I shoot a ton of game events as well...post pics on a web site, etc. And while it is great having no competition cutting in on my business, I for the life of me can't imagine telling some new photographer who started showing up at high school football games and taking pictures that he has no right to be there. How does one get away with that?

Thats what 'exclusive' means :) The event organizer owns the rights to the event, including media rights.

Just showing up to shoot and sell means your potentially infringing on those rights. odds are, in your case, no one cares enough to say anything to you. such is not the case in other places.

If an enterprising photographer cuts a deal with the event organizer to be the exclusive provider of still photos, that gives them the right to kick any photographer they like off the event. and they can pursue, legally, anyone they find selling images of the event.

[NGC2141]

That's the key with us being contributors, we can not sell our photos. We have to provide them to the organization free of charge. With the University, I need to have the images I shoot uploaded to my FTP server for the school to download within 24 hours.

I don't mind doing it because it gives me a chance to get closer to the action and work on getting better at what I love to do.

[wyofizz]

Thats what 'exclusive' means :) The event organizer owns the rights to the event, including media rights.

Just showing up to shoot and sell means your potentially infringing on those rights. odds are, in your case, no one cares enough to say anything to you. such is not the case in other places.

If an enterprising photographer cuts a deal with the event organizer to be the exclusive provider of still photos, that gives them the right to kick any photographer they like off the event. and they can pursue, legally, anyone they find selling images of the event.

+1
Just because you have a camera doesn't give you the right to be out of the bleachers, stands etc.
The event organizer has every right to have an exclusive photographer.
Many of these photographers pay the organization a % of their sales for the right.

[philwillmedia]

Please tell me you're not going to colleges and pro teams undercutting shooting for free just to pump up your own ego.

Not at all...The difference between us and the paid guy is that he gets priority for using flash and he gets to shoot the team pictures, along with a paycheck. We get freedom to enter areas that normal fans can't go. For instance, we get to shoot from the baseline at basketball and go into the dugouts at baseball. We also get to use strobes if the paid guy is not attending. We get experience and build portfolios while enjoying the games.

That's the key with us being contributors, we can not sell our photos. We have to provide them to the organization free of charge. With the University, I need to have the images I shoot uploaded to my FTP server for the school to download within 24 hours.

I don't mind doing it because it gives me a chance to get closer to the action and work on getting better at what I love to do.

Hate to break it to you CG, but yes you are.
"We have to provide them to the organization free of charge" means that you are not being paid (the word free makes that pretty obvious) and "We get freedom to enter areas that normal fans can't go" and "I don't mind doing it because it gives me a chance to get closer to the action" means you're pumping up your own ego.
You can "get experience and build portfolios while enjoying the games" without being on the field.

[Mk1Racer]

[quote]So let me re-ask Dennis' question: You shot this for free ? And then provided images to the league ?/QUOTE]

I have shot for free but only for a couple of reasons. First, I don't feel my photos are at that level yet. If a parent wants me to have something printed then yes I add on for my expenses . Second, my son is on the team and they are his friends so I don't mind taking some action shots for them.
I did have a parent submit one of my pics to a local paper and it got used. Our local pays $75 per and I was out of luck. I did get credit for it if that means anything.

So who got the $75, the parent that submitted your work w/o your permission? If so, I'd be knocking on their door.

I've done essentially what you have, shot my son and his friend's lacrosse games and given the parents pics. However, if one of the parents submitted one of my pics to the local paper, and got paid for it, we would be having a conversation. Also, did you contact the paper that published your picture? I realize that you got the photo credit, but did you inform them that the person that submitted the photo was not authorized to do so?

[steve535]

The paper got the shot for free. The parent in question has son who is a all state wrestler and wants as much press for him as possible. I do now however have the contact of the sports editor for future photos. Will that pay off for me , who knows?

[Mk1Racer]

The paper got the shot for free. The parent in question has son who is a all state wrestler and wants as much press for him as possible. I do now however have the contact of the sports editor for future photos. Will that pay off for me , who knows?

Can we get some more back story? How did the parent get the pic? Why didn't the paper pay for the picture if they have a policy of paying $75/pic? Did the parent contact you prior to submitting the pic to the paper? Did you give the parent permission to submit your pic? If the parent wants press for their kid, and is using your pics w/o asking or w/o your permission, I'd be talking to the parent about the $75, at the very least.

[NGC2141]

You can "get experience and build portfolios while enjoying the games" without being on the field.

So your telling me that if the NFL asked you to shoot the game from the sidelines as a contributor that you would pass on the offer?

[sch_photo]

Phil makes some very good points none that is more important than: "to do this you need to have a passion for both the sport and your photography."

[DC Fan]

You can "get experience and build portfolios while enjoying the games" without being on the field.

Sports pictures from spectator seats.

http://www.kevinlillard.com/racing2/20110106a0041.jpg

Bought a $6 ticket and sat behind the basket.



http://www.kevinlillard.com/racing/20101002c0179.jpg

Bought a $30 end zone seat.



http://www.kevinlillard.com/racing/20100830a0307.jpg

Bought a $15 seat next to the third-base dugout.



http://www.kevinlillard.com/racing/201008271274a.jpg

Bought a $10 general admission ticket and sat on a spectator mound.

The trick is to choose events where no one is upset that you have a camera (as was the case with the MotoGP image), or find events where you can get close to the action with only a ticket and not a credential. Usually, that means finding small-time events, minor league and small college games where the attendance is sparse but the action is plentiful and the tickets are inexpensive.

The reason that questions of this type sometimes get pointed responses is that the questioner often wants to start at major-league events without having any experience at sports photography. Those who have spent years at the craft usually feel that a newcomer has to "pay their dues" before they're ready to make what appears to be the big time.

If you want to make any money at this sort of thing, you should expect to spend several years developing and honing your photographic craft, while making contacts with potential customers at the same time. It's not something that's automatic or can be done in isolation. You need to turn off the computer, leave home, and go out and meet people. At the same time, you need to deal with the potential competition and people who may not want you around if they think you're competition.

Often, the isolated nature of photography means that photographers aren't good at socializing, and are more interested in controlling people than working with them. That attitude has to change if you want to make the contacts that lead to business.

[squires]

Phil makes some very good points none that is more important than: "to do this you need to have a passion for both the sport and your photography."

Ditto. Part of getting good shots is knowing the sport well enough to be able to anticipate what will happen next. I like to photograph airshows and noticed I was getting better shots of the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds just by memorizing their routines.

[MJPhotos24]

So your telling me that if the NFL asked you to shoot the game from the sidelines as a contributor that you would pass on the offer?

The answer would be NO WAY, NO THANKS, NOT HAPPENING!

I CAN shoot the NFL every week, I have an "in" that can get me on the sidelines at the stadium every week they're home if I choose to pull the string. However, I choose NOT to use that connection because I'm not that much of an ego maniac that I just need to be there. Unless there is a client and I will make money it's not happening! Much rather sit home during the NFL season on a Sunday curled up watching the games on TV.

Put a check in there, I'll gear up...and next year I might lose that luxury, but there's going to be a check involved and trying to make a living, not pat myself on the butt, puff my chest out and inflate my ego. Work my butt off for the client that day instead of loafing on the couch!

NOT to mention those shooting for the NFL, and MLB, and NBA, and NHL, and pretty much every organization that has a photography division are 100% against those shooting for free stepping on their toes and only getting in the way of people trying to make a living. Actually many seem to hate spec shooters, where there's a possibility of a check but not guaranteed - so imagine how much farther it goes for those just handing it over free! Not all of them I must add on, but a lot - just read some threads over at sports shooter about spec and free shooters.

Also, people think they need to do this to build a portfolio because only college/pro athletes are portfolio worthy, it's a bunch of BS! They do it for ego, to go where normal fans can't, to get sideline access, to see their name in print (and they're the only one who are reading the credit, it means nothing). They use the portfolio as an excuse or they simply don't know what editors look for, in other words haven't done any homework. The best games I shot last year were the ones that had almost empty stands, not the big fan fair, the freedom to be a bit more creative, that's where you build your portfolio.

I was shooting for a college last year, stayed for the next game to get a couple guys I wanted for stock and was going to be there anyways uploading to the client. The SID of the school playing (not the one who hired me) asked my rate, so I told him. He went on after that to talk about the sucker they have, and that's exactly what he called him - "a sucker who does it free and attends almost every game" was pretty darn close to the quote if not exactly it. He talked about he's not very good, basically ripped the guy the entire time but they used him because he was free.

All I could think about was if every SID who has "contributors" sounds like this, even though I know they don't. I know there's some out there that seriously don't have the budget and have to ask for free images. I know there's some out there that really, and I mean REALLY, appreciate the contributors, but it made me wonder. Made me wonder what happens if that "sucker" one day comes up and says they can't do it free anymore - you think they're going to break out the checkbook? More than likely it's not happening, even if they are one who extremely appreciates the work they've done.

I can understand interns, getting credit, or school paper staff, they're getting something out of the deal, but not those who do the "contributor" thing and call themselves professional, it's so counterproductive to an actual business that it's impossible to do both. The moment you stop doing things for free this big weight comes lifted off your shoulders, it's liberating, and a strange thing happens - you start making money and running things like an actual business.

NOW, don't confuse this with charity work. Charity work is great to do, and a great time to do your portfolio and work on things - but big difference giving for profit organizations free work and getting taken advantage of and charity work.

[CatchingUp]

The answer would be NO WAY, NO THANKS, NOT HAPPENING!

I CAN shoot the NFL every week, I have an "in" that can get me on the sidelines at the stadium every week they're home if I choose to pull the string. However, I choose NOT to use that connection because I'm not that much of an ego maniac that I just need to be there. Unless there is a client and I will make money it's not happening! Much rather sit home during the NFL season on a Sunday curled up watching the games on TV.

Put a check in there, I'll gear up...and next year I might lose that luxury, but there's going to be a check involved and trying to make a living, not pat myself on the butt, puff my chest out and inflate my ego. Work my butt off for the client that day instead of loafing on the couch!

NOT to mention those shooting for the NFL, and MLB, and NBA, and NHL, and pretty much every organization that has a photography division are 100% against those shooting for free stepping on their toes and only getting in the way of people trying to make a living. Actually many seem to hate spec shooters, where there's a possibility of a check but not guaranteed - so imagine how much farther it goes for those just handing it over free! Not all of them I must add on, but a lot - just read some threads over at sports shooter about spec and free shooters.

Also, people think they need to do this to build a portfolio because only college/pro athletes are portfolio worthy, it's a bunch of BS! They do it for ego, to go where normal fans can't, to get sideline access, to see their name in print (and they're the only one who are reading the credit, it means nothing). They use the portfolio as an excuse or they simply don't know what editors look for, in other words haven't done any homework. The best games I shot last year were the ones that had almost empty stands, not the big fan fair, the freedom to be a bit more creative, that's where you build your portfolio.

I was shooting for a college last year, stayed for the next game to get a couple guys I wanted for stock and was going to be there anyways uploading to the client. The SID of the school playing (not the one who hired me) asked my rate, so I told him. He went on after that to talk about the sucker they have, and that's exactly what he called him - "a sucker who does it free and attends almost every game" was pretty darn close to the quote if not exactly it. He talked about he's not very good, basically ripped the guy the entire time but they used him because he was free.

All I could think about was if every SID who has "contributors" sounds like this, even though I know they don't. I know there's some out there that seriously don't have the budget and have to ask for free images. I know there's some out there that really, and I mean REALLY, appreciate the contributors, but it made me wonder. Made me wonder what happens if that "sucker" one day comes up and says they can't do it free anymore - you think they're going to break out the checkbook? More than likely it's not happening, even if they are one who extremely appreciates the work they've done.

I can understand interns, getting credit, or school paper staff, they're getting something out of the deal, but not those who do the "contributor" thing and call themselves professional, it's so counterproductive to an actual business that it's impossible to do both. The moment you stop doing things for free this big weight comes lifted off your shoulders, it's liberating, and a strange thing happens - you start making money and running things like an actual business.

NOW, don't confuse this with charity work. Charity work is great to do, and a great time to do your portfolio and work on things - but big difference giving for profit organizations free work and getting taken advantage of and charity work.

You seem a little sensitive by over emphasizing the 'ego -puff your chest out' comments. IT is possible that there are some decent photographers out there that might not ever get a chance to shoot a game at that level and would jump at the opportunity, if given one- regardless of who ends up with the final product.

I'm not advocating some newbie with a kit lens ought to be down on the sidelines of such games...but there are those of us who are not necessarily in it for the 'money or ego'...but just for the fun and love of shooting action sports. I shoot a ton of local/high school sports. I free lance for two papers. But we don't live in the big city so it's not like I have access to those kind of pro games, but given the chance to go shoot one, I'd jump all over it. Last year, I got credentials to go shoot a pro golf tournament. While I provided some shots four our local paper, I was there soley for the enjoyment of shooting a sport I grew up loving. Had nothing to do with building my portfolio or trying to make a buck.

And without getting contentious here, your statement of "I CAN shoot the NFL every week, I have an "in" that can get me on the sidelines at the stadium every week they're home if I choose to pull the string" has an air of chest thumping to it in my opinion.

I'm just saying...

[nicmo]

Over the years I have seen this exact questioned asked time and time again and I see the exact same arguments back and forth, paid vs free. While I am in the camp of, if you work you should get paid for the services you provide. I do understand the argument, I'll give my stuff away for free to gain access, but all you accomplish is devaluing your work and the work of other photogs around you. I don't know about everyone else, but for me the profession of sports photography or photography in general is very expensive in the way of time and equipment. Money doesn't grow on trees for me and I have to squeeze quarters out of pennies to make ends meet. Most events I photograph am having to double and sometimes triple dip, agencies to make it work. I have been finding over the last few years that sports writers, that I have freelanced for in the past, have taken up the habit carrying a point & shoots to games and getting pictures they need that way. They definatley suffer in quality, but that is their desission to go that route to save a buck. I understand the economy is rough for papers and news agencies and they have to do what they need to do to survive, but it pains me to have people giving away their work for free. While I would love to jump at the chance to shoot more pro events, I couldn't do it for free, as much as I would like to be out shooting that event you do have to put value on what you do.

I have a pretty successful youth action and T&I side to my business, but this is getting harder and harder as time goes on. With camera technologies getting better and cheaper I find that I am not just competing with other professional photographers, but now moms & dads with a pretty decent prosumer camera and lens. I am constantly on my photographers to get the shots the parents can't get. When I run across a person with the right equipment and attitude I approach them and see if I can get them to show me their portfolio and if their work is good enough I bring them on working for me and show and teach them what I am looking for them to provide. While this does take time out of my day, it is worth it to for me as they are getting paid and the end client is getting what they want and it is one less person I have to compete with in a tight market. I have been approached a few times saying I am teaching someone who could take over the contracts that I have with leagues. While that could happen, but for now my pool of available photographers gets bigger allowing me to reach out farther and gain more contracts. Realistically though, I am loosing potential sales from parent photographers giving away their images to teams and other parents. It's not going to stop, but only get worse.

I am not discouraging anyone wanting to become a sport photographer, just know the road will be rough and will not come overnight. My best advise for someone wanting to break into the business is be willing to put in a lot of hours and work really hard for what you want.

[MJPhotos24]

You seem a little sensitive by over emphasizing the 'ego -puff your chest out' comments. IT is possible that there are some decent photographers out there that might not ever get a chance to shoot a game at that level and would jump at the opportunity, if given one- regardless of who ends up with the final product.

I'm not advocating some newbie with a kit lens ought to be down on the sidelines of such games...but there are those of us who are not necessarily in it for the 'money or ego'...but just for the fun and love of shooting action sports. I shoot a ton of local/high school sports. I free lance for two papers. But we don't live in the big city so it's not like I have access to those kind of pro games, but given the chance to go shoot one, I'd jump all over it. Last year, I got credentials to go shoot a pro golf tournament. While I provided some shots four our local paper, I was there soley for the enjoyment of shooting a sport I grew up loving. Had nothing to do with building my portfolio or trying to make a buck.

And without getting contentious here, your statement of "I CAN shoot the NFL every week, I have an "in" that can get me on the sidelines at the stadium every week they're home if I choose to pull the string" has an air of chest thumping to it in my opinion.

I'm just saying...

Sensitive? That's what it is, it's people doing it to do it and brag to their friends and say "I was there". It's not business, it's not because it really helps them, it's just an ego boost. There's a point in anyones career that you have to get past that point, nothing more than that. For the fun and love of shootings sports can be had anywhere, it doesn't have to be at a major athletic event. If you truly love shooting sports there's little leagues, high schools, summer leagues, etc. all over that would love to have you there and actually notice when you are there. Going to just shoot it and give it away to the local paper because you love the sport, that's the ultimate example of ego, doing it for yourself and don't care about undercutting anyone or the profession. Shooting it on spec though, getting credentials without a solid pre-paying client, is completely different. You go and shoot on your own, someone wants images you charge, simple business - some do very good at spec, others do not and do it for the wrong reason (ego).

Not sure how what you quoted is "chest thumping", how is knowing someone and not using that connection a chest thump? Seriously, oh yea I know someone, woo hoo, come on! It's just an example of the exact opposite IMHO, a chest thumping would be gloating about knowing someone that gets you into events even though you have no right being there, and without a client, or potential client afterwards to get the images used, I'd have zero right in being there.

[ZXDrew]

a chest thumping would be gloating about knowing someone that gets you into events even though you have no right being there, and without a client, or potential client afterwards to get the images used, I'd have zero right in being there.

I agree. It doesn't sound like MJPhotos was "chest thumping". I read it as, he could get in easily, but doesn't becuase he shots sports to make a living, not for the thrill of being there.

It seems like there is a point at which being there to capture the moment, the excitement becomes a regular feeling. If I'm not getting paid to shoot, there just isn't a big thrill to be "there". Im not saying I'm anywhere near the level of most of the guys here. At first when I started it was a thrill just to shoot, just to be "there". Now that being "there" is a regular occurance, unless I can make money the excitement just isn't enough. And by "there" I mean anywhere you regularly visit, for me its a running/cycling event. For some it could be a regular season NFL game. Who knows.

[wyofizz]

+1 to MJ

[CatchingUp]

Sensitive? That's what it is, it's people doing it to do it and brag to their friends and say "I was there". It's not business, it's not because it really helps them, it's just an ego boost. There's a point in anyones career that you have to get past that point, nothing more than that. For the fun and love of shootings sports can be had anywhere, it doesn't have to be at a major athletic event. If you truly love shooting sports there's little leagues, high schools, summer leagues, etc. all over that would love to have you there and actually notice when you are there. Going to just shoot it and give it away to the local paper because you love the sport, that's the ultimate example of ego, doing it for yourself and don't care about undercutting anyone or the profession. Shooting it on spec though, getting credentials without a solid pre-paying client, is completely different. You go and shoot on your own, someone wants images you charge, simple business - some do very good at spec, others do not and do it for the wrong reason (ego).



Not sure how what you quoted is "chest thumping", how is knowing someone and not using that connection a chest thump? Seriously, oh yea I know someone, woo hoo, come on! It's just an example of the exact opposite IMHO, a chest thumping would be gloating about knowing someone that gets you into events even though you have no right being there, and without a client, or potential client afterwards to get the images used, I'd have zero right in being there.

My only issue with your assessment here is that you assume anyone shooting a pro game and not getting paid to do so is obviously wrapped up with their ego and bragging rights and has no business being there on the sidelines.

I beg to differ.

If I 'know someone' or get credentials to be there, it's really no other photographers business as to why I am there. If I conduct myself in a professional manner and respect other photographer's space, then so be it.

I've been shooting a lot of local sports for years. Football happens to be my favorite sport to shoot. And most sports photographers would know that as the level/quality of play rises, so does the quality of action shots captured during the game.

Personally, I don't think I'd want to fight with the crowded sidelines on a weekly basis of an NFL or college level game. But that doesn't mean I would pass on the chance to shoot those games from time to time. And it would not be about stroking my ego; which is what you seem to think would be the only reason why anyone not getting paid would be there.

[ZXDrew]

@CatchingUp - I do not mean to butt in on your spat with MJPhotos, do you shoot a majority of the time for professionally or just for personal use?

[CatchingUp]

@CatchingUp - I do not mean to butt in on your spat with MJPhotos, do you shoot a majority of the time for professionally or just for personal use?

I shoot for two newspapers in the area. I do a number of the T/I shots for various leagues in the area as well as the local schools doing their yearbook T/I shots as well.

That doesn't include the weddings, family portraits, Sr. portraits I shoot regularly as well.

Photography is my second job...supplements my teaching job.

[CatchingUp]

Let me offer a personal case/point here. I live in NE Texas and LOVE to shoot football. As stated, I shoot for two papers. But I generate a lot of traffic on my website because of my sports photography which generates a lot of other paying gigs.

When our local school's football season ended (no playoffs) I was interested in shooting some games at Cowboy Stadium in Dallas for the 5A playoffs. I went online, applied for credentials and got to go.
I am 51 years old...and am not out trying to impress anyone. I like shooting football...and was not disappointed at all with what I got that day. It was fun being there...saw some great games and got some great pictures.

I even have some friends whose son played in one of the games so I got some nice shots for them.

The level of play was so much better than what I am accustomed to shooting...and so I was totally in to the challenge of shooting a faster paced, harder hitting game. I'd love to go shoot some college ball next season. It has nothing to do with being on an ego trip. And that I suppose is what ruffled me when I first read that comment.

[Methodical]

To MJ and those that +1 him. Can you offer up some of the steps you took to get where you are and some advice along with the other don't dos?

I read the article that someone posted up above and clearly this guy did some of what has been stated here; shot for free to build his portfolio until he got to a point where he felt he was good enough to get paid for his work and he appears to be very successful in this business.

With that said, I enjoy shooting sports action and one day I'd love to do it professionally, but only after I retire (have a safe paying job) but will continue to hone in my skills. I realize I have to crawl before I can walk so I began by shooting a little football league team this past fall. A co worker asked me shoot her son, but I still spoke to the Commissioner and the coaches to make sure it was ok - and it was. At first they hardly spoke to me, but then after the parents kept telling them to check out the photos, they began to notice me. Then they informed the parents that I will be shooting the games. It's always good to get buy in and become a familiar foe to the parents. It cost them $0 for me to shoot the team games, but I did not give any photos away for free. I sold them to some parents - notice I said some parents. Some parents are just cheap lets face it. I was told my prices were $1 or $2 more than one parent's even though their child look like ants in the pictures, but it did not matter because it was cheaper. I explained to them that there are costs involved: cost to get to game, PP, equipment and I do all the printing in house, my time. The parent took the card to Sams club for printing straight out the camera. Then there's the parents that ask me for lower prices and I stated that my prices are firm and already priced well within the market - my motto, they can take or leave it, but I expect folks to negotiate.

And this always gets me smiling when a parent says that I can have a 4x6 printed for $.13 (an arbitrary price), but then I say but you need an image and that's not free.

I know the assistant coach at one local high school that I asked if they had a photographer. He stated that the local newspaper photographer is there, but can't sell to the parents. He said he woud talk to the HS AD to see if I can shoot for the team.

Also, my co-worker gave me the contact information for a gentleman that shoots alot of sports in our county so I will contact him, too. I am just trying to get started even if I have to shoot for someone at the moment. I just need the experience and exposure.

Sorry for the ramblings

[MJPhotos24]

To me that's ego, shooting for local papers to give it away just because you love the sport. Could I see doing it once in awhile for the hell of it, sure why not, but not if it's going to be undercutting someone else, myself, the profession, or it's for anyone that is going to be using it for their gain. I've made that mistake, almost everyone has, and it's just that - a mistake. Giving my stuff away to a paper for free and getting nothing in return, that's getting taken advantage of in my book and at this point in my career it's not going to happen. I only wish there was someone earlier on to tell me that when I first started!

Spec is different, you go shoot and don't give it away, nobody else gets it unless they are paying for it. There's people who do well with spec, and will go shoot and practice at an event just because they can get in. However, they are not giving anything away after the game just to be there. There is no trade images for access happening. I respect that guy a hell of a lot more than I do the guy trading access for images. That guy has a goal, to practice and possibly make money, not just be there.

I love shooting hockey, football & baseball - only two of those make me any money (87% baseball, 7% football, 6% basketball & soccer**see bottom**). I shot a league for hockey for about a quarter of a season on spec, not paid to be there, but trying to make some money from it. After it just wasn't worth it, even though I loved being there, I stopped. I was making others do work they didn't need to do, the media director had to issue a pass that was basically wasted - the team photographer, newspaper photographer, and myself rotated around places to shoot. By not having me there, it freed up more room for them to work a little more independently. Not an issue in football, but depends at times as the sidelines are often over crowded with God only knows who.

There's also this myth that you need the faster paced games, and it sounds like you're talking high school (5A?), creates better images for a portfolio. It's just not true! You want to impress someone, that's what a portfolio does and is for, then you go find something that is slow and crappy and make it look amazing. Anyone can capture an NFL player making a great play, now go to a youth game and make that 6 year old look like an NFL player and you really will impress someone. If your market is youth (18 under) then you're playing them right into your hands, you've shown what you can do with their age group already. Any schmuck can get T.O. in his prime making a great play, or dropping a routine one (just saying), but not everyone can make the average little leaguer look like a big leaguer.

One thing is, being the state photographer here, that 5A game you shot. Was there an official photographer? Were you there shooting and giving your friend images undercutting the official photographer? I can't say if there was or wasn't, but have gone through it when it's happened. This past year there were at least 7-8 of these people who got passes at the state games giving images away undercutting me, even though there's a signed contract saying the company I shot for had the exclusive. Sure they had no problem saying yes to that pass for the thrill of it, and sure they don't care one bit about undercutting. They care about being able to say they were there, giving away the CD to everyone and getting the pats on the back, that's all, it's ego.

Methodical - read only the first sentence so will try to reply later, going to dinner with one of my first editors and another photographer while working in AZ.

** That's a really rough estimate off 2010...and I enjoy shooting soccer and b-ball, any sport really, just those three out weight the rest as it's what I grew up watching or playing.

[Voaky999]

They care about being able to say they were there, giving away the CD to everyone and getting the pats on the back, that's all, it's ego.


I paint my own house, do my own gardening, and do my own photography given the opportunity, I am sorry if this offends you, but I really don't care.

[MJPhotos24]

I paint my own house, do my own gardening, and do my own photography given the opportunity, I am sorry if this offends you, but I really don't care.

Congratulations, you have absolutely no point!

Now, get your butt over to my house and paint it, do the garden - and I mean start from scratch as there isn't one and I want one, a big one, not some dinky thing, and then shoot my families portrait - entire family, cousins, uncles, everyone. Free of course!

You're example is doing something yourself, not having someone else do it and expect it free because you let them do it. Your example makes no sense, and as for offending, it's not offending even if you had a point. If you think I'm over here all upset and bi**hing you're wrong. It's called sharing mistakes so others can learn from them, sorry if that offends you.

[liam5100]

You know Mike.. I've made an observation and yes its my personal opinion. I think many of these "its ok to do it for free..." guys are really just upset they cant get anyone to pay them to do it.

I mean, how many of these guys would really say.. "NO..., Thanks anyway, but I dont need or want your $350 assignment fee... I do it just for the joy.."

I know I'm relatively new to the world of being a "Pro" and still use the term loosely when it comes to self evaluation. But I think I've paid enough dues to call BS on that one.

[MJPhotos24]

Methodical - breaking this down and hoping the hotel internet doesn't go out again.

After writing this, I will pre-apologize for the length. Flew in a few days early, too much time on my hands.

I read the article that someone posted up above and clearly this guy did some of what has been stated here; shot for free to build his portfolio until he got to a point where he felt he was good enough to get paid for his work and he appears to be very successful in this business.

Ask 1,000 different photographers and you'll find a 1,000 different paths to how it happened. Mine was completely accidental in so many ways. My first "real" camera (kit in the film days) was a graduation gift from getting my AS degree. All I wanted to do was shoot the games from the stands as a season ticket holder and get some autographs as a teenager and baseball fan, since the players for the local team had no cards or anything until late in the year. The general manager saw me, asked me what I was doing with them and of course I thought I was in trouble, right up until he asked to see some. He wanted to use them in the card set and offered trade offs instead of pay (money isn't everything, trade offs are common in every business).

While playing college baseball, another accident. This time though it was a car accident and I held onto making a comeback for a few years, probably 3-4 before saying it's just over after another injury while rehabbing. How do I stay in the game? Looked to the camera and had been shooting, i.e. practicing, for 4 years with that team doing trade offs and now cash to (odd thing was the GM insisted to start paying cash as well). It was then, after a lot of debate in my head that I approached two companies asking to shoot for them, showing them a portfolio online. Did I offer free shots? Nope, offered to be a contributor where if it's used it's paid for - got accepted by both, yes that's spec work. Was not really expecting a full time career out of it, but was testing it.

One of them told me my first baseball cards were coming out in the next set, a few months later when the first set was supposedly coming soon they went out of business. They went out of business owing a LOT of photographers money, so glad it never came out in the long run as I would have been on that list, but at the time what a bummer. The other though, a magazine, finally used my first one - of a friend of mine to boot that I knew from that first season after getting the graduation gift. I had another photo in the same magazine, but honestly don't remember it - just that first one (it was about 10 pages ahead of the second one so was the first I saw).

Moral of the story - I approached them cold just like Steve did, the difference is I was expecting from day one of going into "business" to get paid for it's usage I did of course end up falling for the dreaded "we'll give you credit as we have no budget" line my first year or two of shooting with the business mind set, as well as giving too many favors, all of it was a mistake! I have the one newspaper to this day as a reminder of how stupid it was to let them run three photos, including an almost 1/2 front page one. Soon as they sent it to me I just had a bad taste in my mouth.

It wasn't all roses, puppy dogs and rainbows of course after going more business like, it's not an easy career choice. Still make mistakes - we all do, some minor, some big, some just plain idiotic. You make them and try to learn from them. I used to coach and one of the first things I tried to get through their heads was that "you learn a lot more from what you do wrong than what you do right". It's true in business and life as well if you ask me. It wasn't until I took it 100% serious as a business first that things fell into place, and I have this board to thank for that partially. It gave me a swift kick in the a$$ back when there was more pros here that seem to be gone now, still a good amount though. It was one of the factors, them being honest and not sugar coating.

As for the article...I kind of don't like the path he took, but it worked for him and has worked for others. He did something very smart in saying it was a trial when approaching potential clients, he told them straight out this one is free but the next one is not. A mistake many make is just shoot for free from the get go without ever setting up the rules you'll play by. He set the rules and that's a very good thing, he told them it's a one time thing, and it's honestly the smartest way I've seen anybody approach working free.

Almost all other advice is spot on, especially the being friendly and knowing people. It's like a small group of friends, when you can't do something you recommend someone you know and trust. Guys on the outside, tough to throw their names around, the guys who don't say a word or seem like jerks at the games thinking they're the king/queen, not allowed in the little clique. One of my favorite photographers, one of the reasons I got into shooting, last year turned to me after we shot together for a few days (first time ever) and said "I don't know why XXXX doesn't hire you for these, I might have to make a call". Guy's been shooting for a long time at the highest levels, 30 years and is well known. Now he's talking about throwing my name out there just because of the talks over a few days we happened to have the same assignment for diff. companies.

One thing I strongly do not agree with is the free thing. It seems every suggestion starts with asking to shoot for free and then going to pay. If you have a portfolio established then that should just go out the window. I just booked about a month worth of gigs the past week and a half, shooting almost every day, all paid. Did not offer anyone a trial, my portfolio is set even though I did not send one to any of these places. I just told them who I was, what I do, here's the price, what do you think? Some say no thanks, but a month worth of clients shooting almost every day said yes. It's to the point where I may have to pass off some gigs to another photographer because I may overbook (and he does the same for me, it's that clique thing).

If you have a portfolio set, even if it's just a basic sports one and not specific, then you should be able to contact them and say here it is, this is me, this is what I do. I do that with a lot, some say yes and some say no. A national team for baseball jumped at it, a national team for hockey - my mothers side home country - said they would like to but no budget. I would have loved to shoot the games, but said sorry I don't work free. Even gave them a discount - ya know national pride and all - and it was still no budget, there's lines you draw in the sand. USA beat them, so take that!

With that said, I enjoy shooting sports action and one day I'd love to do it professionally, but only after I retire (have a safe paying job) but will continue to hone in my skills. I realize I have to crawl before I can walk so I began by shooting a little football league team this past fall. A co worker asked me shoot her son, but I still spoke to the Commissioner and the coaches to make sure it was ok - and it was. At first they hardly spoke to me, but then after the parents kept telling them to check out the photos, they began to notice me. Then they informed the parents that I will be shooting the games. It's always good to get buy in and become a familiar foe to the parents. It cost them $0 for me to shoot the team games, but I did not give any photos away for free. I sold them to some parents - notice I said some parents. Some parents are just cheap lets face it. I was told my prices were $1 or $2 more than one parent's even though their child look like ants in the pictures, but it did not matter because it was cheaper. I explained to them that there are costs involved: cost to get to game, PP, equipment and I do all the printing in house, my time. The parent took the card to Sams club for printing straight out the camera. Then there's the parents that ask me for lower prices and I stated that my prices are firm and already priced well within the market - my motto, they can take or leave it, but I expect folks to negotiate.

To me that's the right way on everything. You spoke to who you needed to first instead of showing up like you owned the place, you set our prices to a professional manner and realized immediately that they will always try to haggle. I've never really dealt with it personally, but have heard it in some roundabout way or another. My prices are what they are, sorry. If you truly can't afford it, maybe they're something we can do (charity is not a bad thing). We're a small town, people know about everyone so it's not like they can all come up saying they're broke.

And this always gets me smiling when a parent says that I can have a 4x6 printed for $.13 (an arbitrary price), but then I say but you need an image and that's not free.

Get some blank photo paper, pro paper. When they ask for a .13 cent print give them the blank photo paper and say there you go, the image on is what costs you. (Don't do that, but it'd be fun to!)

I know the assistant coach at one local high school that I asked if they had a photographer. He stated that the local newspaper photographer is there, but can't sell to the parents. He said he woud talk to the HS AD to see if I can shoot for the team.

I started with the local high school, which I graduated from, because of the coaches - my old coaches - who kept asking me to shoot some action stuff. From day one they knew it was a business though and expected me to charge a game fee. First words out of my old coaches mouth was "how much would it cost for you to shoot...." I did it on spec, he just wanted to offer the service and didn't really need anything in particular. You can build upon that, try to take over a school, then maybe expand, etc.

Also, my co-worker gave me the contact information for a gentleman that shoots alot of sports in our county so I will contact him, too. I am just trying to get started even if I have to shoot for someone at the moment. I just need the experience and exposure.

That's pretty much it, IMHO you're taking the right path that you'll feel better about. Remember that newspaper I still have traded images because of their line, well it's a thorn in my side. Don't dwell on it, look back and laugh about it, but it's a reminder I started off right in my humble opinion, took a wrong turn, and when I finally got down to business that's when good things happened more often.

Best thing you can do is just build, always have a plan, add on what you can handle each year. Since it's not a full time gig don't over do it, but do it right. Small steps and build your way up to a goal, don't just do random things, have a direction. Look at your end result and write out a plan backwards that leads back to what you're doing right now. What is your final goal, shoot major events at retirement (going to be hard)? Shoot on the side for something to do in retirement? Do you want the big events, do you just want to shoot sports. There's so many options.

[MJPhotos24]

You know Mike.. I've made an observation and yes its my personal opinion. I think many of these "its ok to do it for free..." guys are really just upset they cant get anyone to pay them to do it.

I mean, how many of these guys would really say.. "NO..., Thanks anyway, but I dont need or want your $350 assignment fee... I do it just for the joy.."

I know I'm relatively new to the world of being a "Pro" and still use the term loosely when it comes to self evaluation. But I think I've paid enough dues to call BS on that one.

There's a lot of options in there, and that is one of them. I'm sure some have a problem with the fact nobody hires them so instead of looking inward they just undercut and think of themselves. It all goes back to ego, you need a strong one, but not a fragile one.

$350 to answer your post btw, I accept all forms of payment. :)

[Methodical]

Thanks for the response and your time

Al


Methodical - breaking this down and hoping the hotel internet doesn't go out again.

After writing this, I will pre-apologize for the length. Flew in a few days early, too much time on my hands.

I read the article that someone posted up above and clearly this guy did some of what has been stated here; shot for free to build his portfolio until he got to a point where he felt he was good enough to get paid for his work and he appears to be very successful in this business.

Ask 1,000 different photographers and you'll find a 1,000 different paths to how it happened. Mine was completely accidental in so many ways. My first "real" camera (kit in the film days) was a graduation gift from getting my AS degree. All I wanted to do was shoot the games from the stands as a season ticket holder and get some autographs as a teenager and baseball fan, since the players for the local team had no cards or anything until late in the year. The general manager saw me, asked me what I was doing with them and of course I thought I was in trouble, right up until he asked to see some. He wanted to use them in the card set and offered trade offs instead of pay (money isn't everything, trade offs are common in every business).

While playing college baseball, another accident. This time though it was a car accident and I held onto making a comeback for a few years, probably 3-4 before saying it's just over after another injury while rehabbing. How do I stay in the game? Looked to the camera and had been shooting, i.e. practicing, for 4 years with that team doing trade offs and now cash to (odd thing was the GM insisted to start paying cash as well). It was then, after a lot of debate in my head that I approached two companies asking to shoot for them, showing them a portfolio online. Did I offer free shots? Nope, offered to be a contributor where if it's used it's paid for - got accepted by both, yes that's spec work. Was not really expecting a full time career out of it, but was testing it.

One of them told me my first baseball cards were coming out in the next set, a few months later when the first set was supposedly coming soon they went out of business. They went out of business owing a LOT of photographers money, so glad it never came out in the long run as I would have been on that list, but at the time what a bummer. The other though, a magazine, finally used my first one - of a friend of mine to boot that I knew from that first season after getting the graduation gift. I had another photo in the same magazine, but honestly don't remember it - just that first one (it was about 10 pages ahead of the second one so was the first I saw).

Moral of the story - I approached them cold just like Steve did, the difference is I was expecting from day one of going into "business" to get paid for it's usage I did of course end up falling for the dreaded "we'll give you credit as we have no budget" line my first year or two of shooting with the business mind set, as well as giving too many favors, all of it was a mistake! I have the one newspaper to this day as a reminder of how stupid it was to let them run three photos, including an almost 1/2 front page one. Soon as they sent it to me I just had a bad taste in my mouth.

It wasn't all roses, puppy dogs and rainbows of course after going more business like, it's not an easy career choice. Still make mistakes - we all do, some minor, some big, some just plain idiotic. You make them and try to learn from them. I used to coach and one of the first things I tried to get through their heads was that "you learn a lot more from what you do wrong than what you do right". It's true in business and life as well if you ask me. It wasn't until I took it 100% serious as a business first that things fell into place, and I have this board to thank for that partially. It gave me a swift kick in the a$$ back when there was more pros here that seem to be gone now, still a good amount though. It was one of the factors, them being honest and not sugar coating.

As for the article...I kind of don't like the path he took, but it worked for him and has worked for others. He did something very smart in saying it was a trial when approaching potential clients, he told them straight out this one is free but the next one is not. A mistake many make is just shoot for free from the get go without ever setting up the rules you'll play by. He set the rules and that's a very good thing, he told them it's a one time thing, and it's honestly the smartest way I've seen anybody approach working free.

Almost all other advice is spot on, especially the being friendly and knowing people. It's like a small group of friends, when you can't do something you recommend someone you know and trust. Guys on the outside, tough to throw their names around, the guys who don't say a word or seem like jerks at the games thinking they're the king/queen, not allowed in the little clique. One of my favorite photographers, one of the reasons I got into shooting, last year turned to me after we shot together for a few days (first time ever) and said "I don't know why XXXX doesn't hire you for these, I might have to make a call". Guy's been shooting for a long time at the highest levels, 30 years and is well known. Now he's talking about throwing my name out there just because of the talks over a few days we happened to have the same assignment for diff. companies.

One thing I strongly do not agree with is the free thing. It seems every suggestion starts with asking to shoot for free and then going to pay. If you have a portfolio established then that should just go out the window. I just booked about a month worth of gigs the past week and a half, shooting almost every day, all paid. Did not offer anyone a trial, my portfolio is set even though I did not send one to any of these places. I just told them who I was, what I do, here's the price, what do you think? Some say no thanks, but a month worth of clients shooting almost every day said yes. It's to the point where I may have to pass off some gigs to another photographer because I may overbook (and he does the same for me, it's that clique thing).

If you have a portfolio set, even if it's just a basic sports one and not specific, then you should be able to contact them and say here it is, this is me, this is what I do. I do that with a lot, some say yes and some say no. A national team for baseball jumped at it, a national team for hockey - my mothers side home country - said they would like to but no budget. I would have loved to shoot the games, but said sorry I don't work free. Even gave them a discount - ya know national pride and all - and it was still no budget, there's lines you draw in the sand. USA beat them, so take that!

With that said, I enjoy shooting sports action and one day I'd love to do it professionally, but only after I retire (have a safe paying job) but will continue to hone in my skills. I realize I have to crawl before I can walk so I began by shooting a little football league team this past fall. A co worker asked me shoot her son, but I still spoke to the Commissioner and the coaches to make sure it was ok - and it was. At first they hardly spoke to me, but then after the parents kept telling them to check out the photos, they began to notice me. Then they informed the parents that I will be shooting the games. It's always good to get buy in and become a familiar foe to the parents. It cost them $0 for me to shoot the team games, but I did not give any photos away for free. I sold them to some parents - notice I said some parents. Some parents are just cheap lets face it. I was told my prices were $1 or $2 more than one parent's even though their child look like ants in the pictures, but it did not matter because it was cheaper. I explained to them that there are costs involved: cost to get to game, PP, equipment and I do all the printing in house, my time. The parent took the card to Sams club for printing straight out the camera. Then there's the parents that ask me for lower prices and I stated that my prices are firm and already priced well within the market - my motto, they can take or leave it, but I expect folks to negotiate.

To me that's the right way on everything. You spoke to who you needed to first instead of showing up like you owned the place, you set our prices to a professional manner and realized immediately that they will always try to haggle. I've never really dealt with it personally, but have heard it in some roundabout way or another. My prices are what they are, sorry. If you truly can't afford it, maybe they're something we can do (charity is not a bad thing). We're a small town, people know about everyone so it's not like they can all come up saying they're broke.

And this always gets me smiling when a parent says that I can have a 4x6 printed for $.13 (an arbitrary price), but then I say but you need an image and that's not free.

Get some blank photo paper, pro paper. When they ask for a .13 cent print give them the blank photo paper and say there you go, the image on is what costs you. (Don't do that, but it'd be fun to!)

I know the assistant coach at one local high school that I asked if they had a photographer. He stated that the local newspaper photographer is there, but can't sell to the parents. He said he woud talk to the HS AD to see if I can shoot for the team.

I started with the local high school, which I graduated from, because of the coaches - my old coaches - who kept asking me to shoot some action stuff. From day one they knew it was a business though and expected me to charge a game fee. First words out of my old coaches mouth was "how much would it cost for you to shoot...." I did it on spec, he just wanted to offer the service and didn't really need anything in particular. You can build upon that, try to take over a school, then maybe expand, etc.

Also, my co-worker gave me the contact information for a gentleman that shoots alot of sports in our county so I will contact him, too. I am just trying to get started even if I have to shoot for someone at the moment. I just need the experience and exposure.

That's pretty much it, IMHO you're taking the right path that you'll feel better about. Remember that newspaper I still have traded images because of their line, well it's a thorn in my side. Don't dwell on it, look back and laugh about it, but it's a reminder I started off right in my humble opinion, took a wrong turn, and when I finally got down to business that's when good things happened more often.

Best thing you can do is just build, always have a plan, add on what you can handle each year. Since it's not a full time gig don't over do it, but do it right. Small steps and build your way up to a goal, don't just do random things, have a direction. Look at your end result and write out a plan backwards that leads back to what you're doing right now. What is your final goal, shoot major events at retirement (going to be hard)? Shoot on the side for something to do in retirement? Do you want the big events, do you just want to shoot sports. There's so many options.

[CatchingUp]

ah...nothing like a little spirited debate, eh? ;-)

What strikes me puzzling about this discussion, is that it seems that some are trying to put some photographers in to one of three categories -

1 shoot for money

2 shoot for ego

3 prostitute yourself and give your work away regardless of how good you may or may not be.

Whatever happened to shooting for fun and enjoyment? (And I get a lot of enjoyment shooting the local schools and spend a lot of time doing it) But just don't slam me because I would jump at the opportunity to shoot a pro game.

I totally respect the guys that make a full time living at this. And I would not try to get in their way or 'undercut' their business.

You automatically assumed that I was giving disk away from that 5A game I shot. False.

You assume I give my pictures to the paper for free. False. Actually one of the papers I get paid for. The other is a small rural weekly who I provide local school sport shots for. They don't have the funds to hire/pay for the pictures, but I've known the family for years and I do it for the kids who are thrilled, along with their families, to see the shots in the local paper. Does it stroke my ego to see my work there?...eh...if you call getting some personal satisfaction out of seeing some young kids smile because their pictures in the local weekly...then...so be it.

If you are going to fault the photographers out there who 'give their stuff away', then why not fault the reputable publications out there that are bypassing their 'regular paid photogs' and are taking the free stuff?

I never give disk away to anyone. I make decent money for the work that I do. But it's not always about the money...or the ego. Sometimes...lest we forget...it's simply about the love of a hobby that has opened up a lot of incredible opportunities for us who take the craft seriously.

My only beef with the original statements made on here was that I felt it was a pretty broad stroke was being used to categorize any photographers out there at a pro event who were not getting paid to shoot that specific event.

[keithj0nes]

Mike,

I have been lurking these forums for quite some time and absolutely love everything you have to say. Very blunt, to the point, and excites (and fears) me to try to get into the sports-photography profession.

While not trying to thread jack at all, I do have a question about what your input is on this situation. I know I'm not close to being categorized as a "pro" as I still have a lot to learn and equipment to get, it's still something that I have been thinking about lately.

My main goal in the near future is to shoot youth lacrosse (it's my favorite sport, yada yada yada) and have the main source of sales be from parents. I know this isn't the best source of income, but it's a start. I also know you do not agree to shooting free, but the competition I have, with eventually trying to makes sales, does. By "free" I mean anyone can download a low-res file for free, and all the money for prints that they sell are donated to a charity, which is a great thing to do, but if I want to have any sort of successful business, that just kills it. They shoot a lot of games too, I believe it's a group of about 6 of them, so they get around. Link to their website/smugmug provided at bottom of post.

One thing that can benefit me is that most of the images are not something I would consider purchasing ever (although their website does say they've reached a $1000 charity goal). Most of the images are cluttered, blurry, lacking DOF, and just looks like they were uploaded straight from the camera to the website. Don't get me wrong, some of them are good, depending on the folder you look through, just not all of them are. My question is how/why are parents paying for these!

Obviously I don't like the quality of these photos, which like I said, may help me in the future, but I can also see parents liking the idea that their money is going towards charity rather than to a business. Another thing benefiting the competition is that the website used for our state's lacrosse information (scores/ interviews/ write-ups/ etc.) use their images on their front pages and generally links to their site which equals free promotion and eventually charity sales.

All in all, I'd just like your opinion on the situation. More or less "What Would Mike Do?" type thing.

Thank you in advance!

Website : http://soundlacrosse.com/

[Sibil]

........ then you go find something that is slow and crappy and make it look amazing. Anyone can capture an NFL player making a great play, now go to a youth game and make that 6 year old look like an NFL player and you really will impress someone.

That is soooooo true.

[philwillmedia]

...Obviously I don't like the quality of these photos...

Website : http://soundlacrosse.com/

If the slide show that comes up is anything to go by, I can see why.

[keithj0nes]

If the slide show that comes up is anything to go by, I can see why.

And those are the better photos of all of those galleries....

[Sibil]

Let's be nice

[MJPhotos24]

Whatever happened to shooting for fun and enjoyment? (And I get a lot of enjoyment shooting the local schools and spend a lot of time doing it) But just don't slam me because I would jump at the opportunity to shoot a pro game.

The only "slam" that would happen is you shoot that pro game giving your stuff away to shoot it, just because you like the sport, the ol' trading images for access. We all have fun and enjoy shooting sports or whatever it is people shoot or would not be doing it. Least that's how it is for me, if I don't like it and enjoy going to work every day I'm done and moving on to something else. Last thing I ever want is to feel "stuck" in a job.

You automatically assumed that I was giving disk away from that 5A game I shot. False.

Another case of not reading the post, I didn't say that, I asked that and said, and I quote "I don't know". Then said I have been on the side of when it happens, read the entire post.

You assume I give my pictures to the paper for free. False. Actually one of the papers I get paid for. The other is a small rural weekly who I provide local school sport shots for. They don't have the funds to hire/pay for the pictures, but I've known the family for years and I do it for the kids who are thrilled, along with their families, to see the shots in the local paper. Does it stroke my ego to see my work there?...eh...if you call getting some personal satisfaction out of seeing some young kids smile because their pictures in the local weekly...then...so be it.

All about you isn't it ;) Read the post more carefully, there's too many times I'm giving examples and not speaking directly at you or about you, if I was I'd do this and quote you in bold or quotes. I said doing the images for access thing is ego driven, that's all.

If you are going to fault the photographers out there who 'give their stuff away', then why not fault the reputable publications out there that are bypassing their 'regular paid photogs' and are taking the free stuff?

Nobody brought it up? It's not a one way street in any sense, editors are taught to ask for free images and tell you they have no budget. If you really want to shoot for them think of something to trade for, trade offs happen all the time. If you shoot seniors/weddings for example ask about trading off some advertising for some sports shots.

There's no perfect world where every editor is going to "wake up" and every sports photographer is going to do the same. However, putting that there is OTHER options to go to shoot the bigger events, even if high school, instead of going the lowest road you can find just whoring yourself out is a good thing. There's options, there's roads you can take that are less productive, why take them?

I never give disk away to anyone. I make decent money for the work that I do. But it's not always about the money...or the ego. Sometimes...lest we forget...it's simply about the love of a hobby that has opened up a lot of incredible opportunities for us who take the craft seriously.

Where is anybody saying you can't shoot for fun, in fact I've said it a few times if you have the access and can shoot without having to give it away go at it. It's spec work, it's practice. Though many people hate the thought of spec work I know others who have made good money at it, I've said that a few times.

My only beef with the original statements made on here was that I felt it was a pretty broad stroke was being used to categorize any photographers out there at a pro event who were not getting paid to shoot that specific event.

Again, you really need to read the posts better then. The only "beef" (anyone else wanna go to lunch?) I have is when people deliberately undercut and do the trade images for access, as it's just a mistake IMO. Others think it's an OK path to take to get experience, I feel there are much better ways to do it that are more professional. I have said before in this thread not talking about a guaranteed paycheck to go to the game, that's not what it's about. You need to read the posts better, or if it's confusing maybe I should write it better. It's usually why I write too much, to make it clear, but was in a hurry the last couple posts as I am in a hotel and would like to enjoy the time instead of type.

[MJPhotos24]

Very blunt, to the point, and excites (and fears) me to try to get into the sports-photography profession.

I've never been accused of beating around the bush.

main source of sales be from parents. I know this isn't the best source of income

There's photographers out there that beg to differ, though it's tough to find the events that pay well. T&I does well, some events do well with parents as the client - I'm at one right now. Though I do get paid by the organization to, the parents are the bulk of it. I know one guy who does 10 events a year, that's it, all over the country and is living well. He adds some other stuff here and there, but his entire living is at those 10 events, all paid for by parents.

"What Would Mike Do?"

Not shoot lacrosse in that area.

Honestly, it's a no win situation. They're all volunteering, they're underpriced for any business model (in other words if someone trying to run a business, for profit, had those prices they'd be quickly out of business - in fact they should raise the prices just to get more money to charity, it's odd pricing). Unless they disappear from the face of the earth the profits would not be worth it. Every photographer needs to learn to cut some things from their shooting time.

The local youth leagues for me are awesome to shoot, they're fun, the parents are great, the kids are fun to be around, since I do the T&I get to know everyone, love it. However, I cut back doing it last year and will cut again this year except for specific kids (parents who buy), or try to create a different system (pre-pay). Fact is the money just isn't there, so being as I have bills to pay and other clients I could work for it's time to step aside and say sorry, not shooting it as much.

There's an area about 45 mins from me I won't shoot either, this ex-professional was fired by everyone who's ever hired him. So now he charges $50/CD - no culling, no editing, shoot and burn and run. I still get orders from the area, so does a photographer from the area, because people hate him, but not hitting up the schools he's "in" with. It just won't work, so not going to do it.

There's markets that just are not worth shooting, you have to find a market that is. Maybe doing T&I is more worth it for these teams? Maybe another lax league? Maybe other sports? Just depends where the money is, you have to find it. I'm in Arizona right now because this event brings in some decent money in a slow time of year (Jan/Feb).

OK, checkout time so wrote this way to fast, not sure it's in English let alone makes sense.

[Methodical]

Keith, here's my thoughts. I say get to know the coach and who ever is in charge. Let them know you want to shoot the game, give them your card to show your work. Show them that your photos are top notch or at least better than the others. Offer to return, say 20%, of your sales to the club. Better images and reinvestment to the team might help you beat them out. Get one team and shoot them, but also shoot the team they are playing, too. I got some sales that way.

I enjoyed watching the kids play, got out of the house and plus I earned some lunch money for the week. I did not have to go the atm for a minute. So I earned money doing what I love.

Edit: I just checked out the photos. Man get out there and show your stuff. Once they see better quality images, I think they will make the leap. I know I would. Man get out there and make a name for yourself. At least shoot for the one season and see how it goes.

Just One Man's Opinion


Mike,

I have been lurking these forums for quite some time and absolutely love everything you have to say. Very blunt, to the point, and excites (and fears) me to try to get into the sports-photography profession.

While not trying to thread jack at all, I do have a question about what your input is on this situation. I know I'm not close to being categorized as a "pro" as I still have a lot to learn and equipment to get, it's still something that I have been thinking about lately.

My main goal in the near future is to shoot youth lacrosse (it's my favorite sport, yada yada yada) and have the main source of sales be from parents. I know this isn't the best source of income, but it's a start. I also know you do not agree to shooting free, but the competition I have, with eventually trying to makes sales, does. By "free" I mean anyone can download a low-res file for free, and all the money for prints that they sell are donated to a charity, which is a great thing to do, but if I want to have any sort of successful business, that just kills it. They shoot a lot of games too, I believe it's a group of about 6 of them, so they get around. Link to their website/smugmug provided at bottom of post.

One thing that can benefit me is that most of the images are not something I would consider purchasing ever (although their website does say they've reached a $1000 charity goal). Most of the images are cluttered, blurry, lacking DOF, and just looks like they were uploaded straight from the camera to the website. Don't get me wrong, some of them are good, depending on the folder you look through, just not all of them are. My question is how/why are parents paying for these!

Obviously I don't like the quality of these photos, which like I said, may help me in the future, but I can also see parents liking the idea that their money is going towards charity rather than to a business. Another thing benefiting the competition is that the website used for our state's lacrosse information (scores/ interviews/ write-ups/ etc.) use their images on their front pages and generally links to their site which equals free promotion and eventually charity sales.

All in all, I'd just like your opinion on the situation. More or less "What Would Mike Do?" type thing.

Thank you in advance!

Website : http://soundlacrosse.com/

[clickclickclick]

Very informative posts by Mr.Janes in this thread.

[keithj0nes]

I was afraid you'd say that, but it all makes sense.

I think I may take Methodical's advice and shoot for a least a season (fortunately lacrosse season is only a couple months long), maybe try to use the %20 of sales to the club as an incentive, as well as try to do the team's T&I shots.

If that all fails, then I'll take your advice and just leave the lacrosse market. Thanks to the both of you!

[Mike R]

I was afraid you'd say that, but it all makes sense.

I think I may take Methodical's advice and shoot for a least a season (fortunately lacrosse season is only a couple months long), maybe try to use the %20 of sales to the club as an incentive, as well as try to do the team's T&I shots.

If that all fails, then I'll take your advice and just leave the lacrosse market. Thanks to the both of you!

It may be dependent on the area but 20% is TOO HIGH.

[steve535]

I have no ambition of being a pro sports photographer but I do make a living with my camera. I only shoot my sons team and for the most part I shoot for free. If a parent wants prints Ill charge them, talking to a potential customer and getting a lead is worth way more to me. A link to my flickr can land me a landscape photo image and a substantial job.
People ( the parents) like going through my shots, they all ask me why I have such a good camera and thats when I go into sales mode. I see it as free advertising and after selling in the vicinity of 20k to teammates last year "Sorry" if Im stepping on your toes.
Yes I was pissed about having a parent submitting my pics to the local paper. Making a stink over a couple hundred dollars would do more damage then good. Who knows maybe I will be good enough some day to make a switch into sports photography.

[stince]

I've posted this several times elsewhere on POTN - people are probably sick of seeing it.
It's essentially related to motorsports photography but the principles are the same for any sport.
It's a bit long, I know, but It covers most things you probably need to know and, dare I say, it tells it like it is.

A quick few words about my background.
I started my motorsport photography over 20 years ago when I stopped competing in rallies.
The biggest problem I and fellow competitors had back then was getting pics of ourselves.
When I finally parked the rally car, I still wanted to be involved. I picked up the camera and started taking pics at club level events to national championship level from spectator areas and selling them to competitors.
After a while I started submitting to a couple of motorsport magazines. It took a while but eventually, after about 3 years, I started getting some images published and then it snowballed from there to the point where I was able to get accreditation.
Today, I cover all types of motorsport and supply several magazines and agencies with images. I have also covered a number of different sports and events for image libraries including Federation Cup Tennis, International Netball, Wrestling, Pro Golf, AFL Football, International Soccer, Pro Cycling and several other sports and events. Later this week I will be coveruing the World Tennis Challenge in Adelaide.

Firstly, what is your reason for wanting media credentials.
Are you a member of the media?
What can you give the organizers by your presence?
Media creds are usually only given to WORKING media. This means people working for and supplying bona fide media outlets ie: Magazines and newspapers and other recognised media outlets such as websites and press agencies.
I’ve been shooting sport, mainly motorsport for over 20 years, and still do club level and grass roots sports.
I supply several magazines and newspapers as well as photo agencies.
I often get asked…
”How do I get a pass to shoot from where you are?”
My reply usually goes something like this…
“How long have you been photographing (insert name of sport) and what outlet do you work for?
To which they reply something like…”Oh I never do. I just want to get in and shoot from where you are. I’m just taking photos for myself”
Ask yourself this…
If you’ve never taken a photograph of an American Football (substitute for any sport) game, would you approach the NFL (again substitute relevant organization) and say to them “Hey Mr NFL Media Man, I’ve never taken a photo of a grid iron game before but I think I’m a pretty good photographer, I’m not shooting for anyone except myself so you won’t get any publicity but can I have a media pass for the Superbowl…"
Seriously, what do you think they would say.
It would probably be cool to be there and you’d get off on it and brag to your friends, but seriously…
Unless you are working media, why should you be there.

Media credential's ARE NOT a free pass to get in to an event.

Admittedly, sometimes I have seen some people with creds who probably shouldn't have them - and people who probably should have them who don't - however it's not for me to make that decision.
I do sympathise with people who wish they could get creds for events and can't.
Event organizers are after publicity. You shooting for yourself does not give them that publicity and they do not have an obligation to give you a media pass just because you think you should have one. It is up to you to justify why you should be accredited.
Remember that the 'togs you see shooting at a track or sporting event etc are being paid by somebody therefore IT IS A JOB. They are not there for the fun of it.
Imagine if somebody came into your work place and thought it looks like cool job, do you think they'd just be able to start doing what you were for the fun of it?
Also, there is a whoooole lot more to it than just standing by the track and taking photo's. There are deadlines (sometimes very short) to meet and as a rule I would suggest that for the same amount of time spent trackside there is at least 1/2 to 3/4 of that time to be spent on editing, sending images etc when the day at the track has finished. If you spend 8 hours at the track, then you will usually spend another four to six hours, at least, once you have left the track on editing etc.
I attend a lot of events where I don't have creds so I do know what it's like from behind the fence or in the bleachers, but I still manage to get good and sometimes great images.
It makes you see things differently and find different angles and ways of shooting.
I'd estimate that about 50% of events I go to, I don't have the magic press pass and pay to get in like everyone else.
Sometimes I'm just there for being there, and sometimes it might be a sport I've never shot before but want to see what it's like. Occasionally I do manage to sell some images.
Also, just because you have good gear doesn't mean you should be there either.
I've seen some 'togs with basic DSLR's and kit lenses take some better stuff than guys with 1D's and white lenses (and Nikon equivalent). I occasionally use a 400D with the 10-22 lens and have had those images published. I also use a sigma 10mm fisheye.
In closing, I will say this...
THERE ARE NO SHORT CUTS.
If you want to have creds for big events, start shooting the grass roots of that sport (no it's not glamorous like the big events - but you'll probably make more money) and start supplying images to publications etc.
This is a great way to get yourself known to event organisers. They learn to know who you are and that you are committed to photographing their sport and being known is half the battle. This is not going to take 5 minutes and may take several years, yes... I did say years.
To do this you need to have passion for both the sport and your photography.
You must be prepared to put up with the elements, rain, hail, shine, and depending on the hemisphere, maybe snow (not generally an issue in Australia) etc etc.
Just like any job, sometimes it will NOT be fun and just plain hard work.
It just depends on how hard you are prepared to work to get there.

Except when learning to swim, always start at the bottom.
I see too many people trying to start right at the top. it doesn't work that way.

Apologies if this appears blunt and straight to the point, but it is fact.

Well put.
I started small, picking up a camera out of will to play with it 5 years ago.
I didn’t think it would turn into something I love now.

2 Years later, I was asked by a friend to shoot some Paintball. I figured, why not.
Now, 2 years after that, I shoot for 3 of the largest magazines/publications that feature the sport, along with having my name widly recognized in the sport, and have no issue securing press credentials, having my work published, or seeing my photos all over the internet.

Now-a-days, people think, my works so popular here, let me roll that into another sport. I tried that, learned, and read. I said, hey, if I can shoot such a hard sport, I should start shooting easier, more relaxed sports such as football and soccer.
I learned that just because you’re known in another, doesn’t mean someone in another sport has any clue who you are. I probably have had the dream to be on the sidelines of a pro NFL game, or sitting on the 10th tee at the US Open, but like this man above me stated, you need to start small.

Most local high schools are the key, or heck, small divisional college football programs are looking for photos of their teams for marketing, merchandising, or booster/media purposes. I contacted the local editor for the newspaper asking about freelance possibilities. No more than 2 weeks later, I had already shot 4 events, 2 of which were homecoming football games and a state XC meet.

Just contact papers. They are the best way to start off if you really want to shoot sports. Since then, they’ve given me opportunities to shoot NCAA sports, AHL Hockey, and things are only growing.

Take chances, communicate, the worst thing you’ll get is a no or sorry, we can’t afford a stringer or can’t supply you with credentials. But at lease you’ve tried right?