Bride/Groom won't pay....

[Dubsta]

Coles notes:

Was hired to do a wedding, did it...processed the pictures, had them all printed, bought the album, set it up, did the whole deal...the full package...

I have been calling for weeks, leaving messages, and talking to the babysitter, they will not return calls, and the past two weeks I didn't even get the babysitter...

I think they got their wedding video and said, screw the pics...what the heck do I do now!

The wedding was a small one, I got $200 up front, and now they owe me $400...besides the fact I already paid for the prints and the album....is there anything I can do?

[Dubsta]

Oh, they have not received anything from me yet, no pics or proofs or anything....

[bachscuttler]

Keep the $200 and photoshop ;) the rest and put them on every forum you can find?

Or more sensibly, write to them in the first instance.
Did you draw up any sort of contract with them or get any written proof of your agreement to carry out the assignment?

[Dubsta]

No, this was on of my first weddings and I actually just finished doing up my contract recently.

[guitarman]

Keep the $200 and photoshop ;) the rest and put them on every forum you can find?

Or more sensibly, write to them in the first instance.
Did you draw up any sort of contract with them or get any written proof of your agreement to carry out the assignment?

I don't know exactly what that would accomplish putting them on all the forums, but I wouldn't. If you had a contract I would just go after them that way. File it with the credit bearu. If you had no contract then there might be nothing you can do. You could take them to small claims court. Used to see small stuff like this all the time on Judge Judy. According to those courts, even verbal agreements are legal.

[Dubsta]

Well, I do have proof that I was their photographer! I have all the pictures!

[bachscuttler]

Keep the $200 and photoshop ;) the rest and put them on every forum you can find?


I hasten to add that was a joke...don't try that at home folks :confused:

[blue_max]

Hey fella, take it easy - they are probably on honeymoon!

I am sure if you go round and show them the pics, they will love to see them and hopefully buy.

Good luck.

Graham

[guitarman]

Well, I do have proof that I was their photographer! I have all the pictures!

You would probably win in small claims court then. They would most likely have no good explanation why they didn't atleast call to tell you that they were unsatisfied for whatever reason. People like this can't just go around stiffing people that they have hired for a service.
Perhaps if you file in small claims and they get the notice, they will just end up paying you out of fear of going to court. It might cost you a bit to file but atleast you would recoup something.

[robertwgross]

If there is no witness to a verbal agreement, then it is tough to make that stick in any court.

It is for this very reason why it is vitally important to have some type of written agreement, and that lays out the deliverables (by the photographer) and the payment (by the client).

It is equally necessary for the payment schedule to be constructed so that you are not exposed on the cost of prints.

I would chalk that up to a few hundred dollars worth of education for the photographer.

---Bob Gross---

[Dubsta]

They are not on vacation, they were not taking one, the babysitter said on a bunch of occassions that they would be home after 6:30pm.

[cosworth]

Sell the finished prints and all the extras on eBay. Set a buy it now price and email them the link.

Someone will bid on it I swear. Maybe even for a movie prop.

[guitarman]

If there is no witness to a verbal agreement, then it is tough to make that stick in any court.

It is for this very reason why it is vitally important to have some type of written agreement, and that lays out the deliverables (by the photographer) and the payment (by the client).

It is equally necessary for the payment schedule to be constructed so that you are not exposed on the cost of prints.

I would chalk that up to a few hundred dollars worth of education for the photographer.

---Bob Gross---

As well it would be very hard to get a judge to beleive that someone that was a total stranger to the bride and groom, would photograph their wedding for free. I am sure he could get some kind of settlement out of it. I would have at the very least, when I was paid the deposit made a simple invoice in excel (template already there) that stated the $200 was a deposit and would have documented the remainder to be paid. Then I would have had them sign it. Very easy to do.

[guitarman]

Sell the finished prints and all the extras on eBay. Set a buy it now price and email them the link.

Someone will bid on it I swear. Maybe even for a movie prop.

Good one LOL

[dgcorner]

Any reason for not showing up at their front door and asking them for payment? I've seen this work several times (I'm in Sales & Marketing) -- when confronted, normally "good" people pay up.

Then again, if things don't go as planned, and as Bob says, you might have to "charge" this to experience. It is no use taking people to court for such a sum, unless you want to do it because of principles, or if you have lots of time on your hands to sit around in court.

Besides, this being your first shoot, you wouldn't want them to start spreading ugly rumors about "how awful your pictures look" hence the non-payment... but, that's just me ;-)

Good luck!

[pradeep1]

I would send them a letter documenting your services, when you invoiced them (and a copy of the invoice), when you attempted to contact them, and then end the letter with a clear threat to use legal action if they do not pay within a certain period of time - give them 10 days and send your letter by certified mail with return receipt. You could take this to small claims court and probably win even if your contract was verbal. You can ask for a judgement in the amount of your invoice, interest, and court filings costs (anywhere from $25-100). Usually a letter from you and then a summons notice from the court quickly gets people who are "reasonable" to pay, since a judgement against them can haunt them for years and most sane people will not risk it for a mere few hundred dollars. However, you never know.

Hell, I would take them to court just so you can learn how the process of suing someone works and how to prepare for the case. You never know when it might come in handy in the future. In my business, we routinely sue companies and people who do not pay up, and we have won judgements even when the order was called in over the phone and we have no records of that conversation other than the invoice and shipping documents we can provide to the court. Usually the court looks upon the actions of the debtors, in that, if you invoiced them and contacted them repeatedly and they did not contact you, the court will sometimes look at their actions as being stalling in nature and may rule in your favor. I still say that since the amount is $400 and it is obviously important to you, do this as a learning experience when you need to go after real deadbeats in the future.

Once you get judgement against them, then getting them to pay might still be difficult. You can usually have the local sheriff take action against them. If you know where they live and what property they posess (cars, trucks, etc.) you can have the sheriff seize those to pay off your debts. I've had some of my deadbeat customer's trucks and cars booted by getting their make/model/license plate/VIN to the local sheriff and have them execute on that. Having a car or truck they use everyday booted up quickly gets their attention.

There are so many options, and it just best to call the Clerk of Court at your local Magistrates or Small Claims Court in your local county or jurisdiction and ask about the procedure.

It is surprisingly effective and judges tend to favor honest business people with good records.

Hope this helps and go get them.

Next time, remember to get a signed contract clearly documenting your agreed intentions, payment schedule, and have a clause about what collection method(s) you will use and how those costs will also be borne by them.

Pradeep

See here:

1. http://www.gov.ns.ca/just/selfrep.htm
2. http://www.courts.ns.ca/smallclaims/cl_info.htm
3. http://www.courts.ns.ca/self_rep/small_claims_brochure.pdf

It seems that Small Claims Court fees in Nova Scotia are $80 CAD. If you are serious about doing business and running a business, I'd consider that an investment of your time and money to learn how to sue someone properly and efficiently. :)

[robertwgross]

As well it would be very hard to get a judge to beleive that someone that was a total stranger to the bride and groom, would photograph their wedding for free.

Maybe. But that does not apply here. The photographer got part of the money up front. The clients might claim that the money was for the entire job. With no written agreement, or without any email record, this is almost impossible to prove.

A verbal agreement isn't worth the paper that it's not written on.

---Bob Gross---

[SWPhotoImaging]

I would bet that their parents/grandparents would buy the pictures.

[guitarman]

Maybe. But that does not apply here. The photographer got part of the money up front. The clients might claim that the money was for the entire job. With no written agreement, or without any email record, this is almost impossible to prove.

A verbal agreement isn't worth the paper that it's not written on.

---Bob Gross---

I knew you would say that. But there again such an easy thing to disprove. Just go and get estimates from 3 or more wedding photographers and see how many of them are any where near $200. The judge would see that the evidence would show what the likelihood of a photographer doing a job for that little would be. In small claims court there doesn't always have to be beyond a preponderance of a doubt like criminal court. Sometimes its based on the most believable side.

[DocFrankenstein]

I knew you would say that. But there again such an easy thing to disprove. Just go and get estimates from 3 or more wedding photographers and see how many of them are any where near $200. The judge would see that the evidence would show what the likelihood of a photographer doing a job for that little would be. In small claims court there doesn't always have to be beyond a preponderance of a doubt like criminal court. Sometimes its based on the most believable side.
It's his first wedding... he could've charged just 200...

But then there's too much evidence against them. If you ring up the phone company, they'll give you a list of incoming/outgoing calls. You called them, they stalled.

They refused to take the pictures...

Sue them. They deserve it.

[kawter2]

Store the pics in a file and then just, chalk it up to an expensive but very memrabla lesson

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS
ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS
ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS

Get 100% of the money 30 days prior to shooting a wedding.. ALWAYS!!

[Merle]

Dubstra,

Next time the $200.00 is a deposit to hold the wedding date for the couple the balance to be paid on or before the wedding. Purchase preprinted contracts or make one up on your own.

Now, lets be business like on this. You mentioned you left messages with the babysitter. So these are either not newlyweds for the first time or they got the cart before the horse. They came home from the honeymoon and the sticker shock from the wedding expenses has overwhelmed them.
Send a non-threatening certified letter explaining that the wedding photography is ready and ask how soon they would like to complete the transaction. If they are truly overwhelmed by the cost of their wedding or they have second thoughts about the importance of the still photography,you can offer to put them on a payment plan, delivering the product only after the last payment has been made.

We must always remember that we are in the people business. Each client has their own individual set of circumstances. Based on personal experience I know our artistic pride has been dumped on, but getting tough and legal recourse should always be a last resort. When we are first starting out we want to project a positive image around our community. If this deal does go south on you and you wind up in court you will never have the opportunity to explain your side of the story to everyone that they badmouth you too. There is an old saying in the wedding business. One bad wedding will do more harm to your reputation than 10 good weddings will do to build your reputation up. ;) :) :D

Good Shooting To Ya!!
Merle

[Dubsta]

It was not my first wedding, just one of my first...I only did about 5-6.

Anyway, thanks for the help everyone...I called back yesterday like 6 times, from my work phone and from my cell phone. NO answer, then when I called from a phone they would not recognize, the sitter answered...and she didn't seem to be too happy.

Anyway, they didn't call me back...I plan to call them every single day....I will update as it goes along.

[Jesper]

So why don't you just go to their house, as dgcorner suggested?

[Steve Parr]

If they continue to refuse to pay, shame them.

You have their pictures, so use them. Take an ad out in the local paper; maybe a half-page, and include thier picture. The text should explain exactly what happened; they're refusal to pay for your services, and the picture should be clear and the people identifiable. I wouldn't use any that are embarassing or risque; just one that clearly shows both the bride and groom.

Since they're not returning your calls, go ahead and leave a message for them informing them of your intent.

I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut you get a return call...

Steve

[guitarman]

If they continue to refuse to pay, shame them.

You have their pictures, so use them. Take an ad out in the local paper; maybe a half-page, and include thier picture. The text should explain exactly what happened; they're refusal to pay for your services, and the picture should be clear and the people identifiable. I wouldn't use any that are embarassing or risque; just one that clearly shows both the bride and groom.

Since they're not returning your calls, go ahead and leave a message for them informing them of your intent.

I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut you get a return call...

Steve

I doubt any paper would publish that. You can't just make those kind of accusatory claims. Or else everyone would be doing it, most just for shear spite, regardless of facts.

[Steve Parr]

I doubt any paper would publish that. You can't just make those kind of accusatory claims. Or else everyone would be doing it, most just for shear spite, regardless of facts.

Here in San Diego, we have a paper called "The Reader". It's a free weekly publication distributed all over the county. I've been stunned at some of the things I've seen in that paper. An ad with photos of a bride and groom and an explanation of the facts would be mild, and would be accepted without question...

Steve

[Dubsta]

I'm the head Graphic Designer at THE local newspaper...lol...hmmmmmm

[kawter2]

I'm the head Graphic Designer at THE local newspaper...lol...hmmmmmm



I can really tell it by the amount of professionalism you display!!!


Serriously get over it!!! If you continue with the methods you mentioned here, You will only

*burn bridges
*ruin relationships
*ruin your name
*look like an ass
*waste time that you could have spent doing something productive for your business

[cosworth]

Kawter2, Sydney is avery different than Orange County. things are just done differently there.

Professionalism should reign though. Appropriate regional tactics apply.

These are people that wanted a photographer then decided they didn't need the pictures. I'd want polaroids from my wedding. Petroglyphs would cut it. If they are unhappy with what you took and don't have any copies in their possession they will never pay and pay only by court order.

I'm looking to get married soon. June. I want good pictures. Will I be fussy? Hell yeah. Will I take my own pictures with a paid photographer. Most likely. These people sound like they just don't value the work. You'll have ot walk away from it most likely.

Use their pics as your samples and in your ads.

[Steve Parr]

Use their pics as your samples and in your ads.

But, just for fun, draw a moustache on the bride...

Steve

[maderito]

Use their pics as your samples and in your ads. Excellent!

The wedding photographer we hired showed us a wedding album he had prepared but never been paid for. I knew the couple who had sitffed him!

Without saying it directly, he made the main point of his presentation very well: I do good work and I expect to get paid for it!

[DocFrankenstein]

I can really tell it by the amount of professionalism you display!!!


Serriously get over it!!! If you continue with the methods you mentioned here, You will only

*burn bridges
*ruin relationships
*ruin your name
*look like an ass
*waste time that you could have spent doing something productive for your business
How is he not professional?

Being professional isn't about being nice. It's about making profits.

What bridge is he going to burn? I'd imagine the referral from that couple would stiff him the same way.

[S230]

Don't waste your time publishing in the newspaper because it can stirr up trouble you don't want. The amount of money is not worth the hassle and since you have their photos, you still have future sale. Make sure you document everything. Their future kids or grandchildren may be interested in buying them.
As for payment, I agree to several posts that you should had gotten payment before you started. I recently done a wedding and was already paid in full. The couple is so busy that several month's past and they still did not pickup the photos. Every wedding and situations is different. A written contract will certainly help.

[S230]

It was not my first wedding, just one of my first...I only did about 5-6.

Anyway, thanks for the help everyone...I called back yesterday like 6 times, from my work phone and from my cell phone. NO answer, then when I called from a phone they would not recognize, the sitter answered...and she didn't seem to be too happy.

Anyway, they didn't call me back...I plan to call them every single day....I will update as it goes along.
Btw, also to add, don't keep calling because that can be a form or harassment and it's a waste of time. Clearly, they are ignoring you or maybe the sitter don't want to pass over the message. First, send a registered mail and if no response, then hire a lawyer that deals with small cases (usually prices are reasonable), get them to write a certified letter to them with an invoice. This way it is a legal communication to them and if they still don't respond by a specified date, then you can proceed to small claims court, etc. Let the lawyer go after them, that's what some of their jobs do and people usually pay more attention to a letter sent from a lawyer or court. Let collections go after them while you sit at home waiting for the paycheque or your time better spent at the beach... :)

[neil_r]

Money up front for the days shooting.

Money up front for any prints or albums they select.

It is the ONLY way to do this.

[CanonXTuser]

I can really tell it by the amount of professionalism you display!!!


Serriously get over it!!! If you continue with the methods you mentioned here, You will only

*burn bridges
*ruin relationships
*ruin your name
*look like an ass
*waste time that you could have spent doing something productive for your business


AGreed. Calling them SIX TIMES IN ONE DAY. Calling EVERY DAY.

Does he not realize how desperate and/or psychotic this makes him look. Just imagine how this looks to a third person.

Also, with all the effort he is contemplating putting into getting your money back or either "shaming" them, he will end up spending more than four hundred dollars worth of effort and time as well as put himself at risk for a legal or reputational backlash.

Moreover, I have not shot a single wedding as well as only been photographing for two months but already knew that it was industry standard to be paid in full before the wedding day as well as recall many threads where people asked and got links to contracts they could use/adapt for themselves.

Wonder if he asked for help about payment terms and contracts.

He should halk it up to experience and your portfolio and marketing. If for $400 bucks it's worth the effort and risk to reputation to go after them, than he ought to do it in a professional, nondesperate or coercive manner.

Also, 600 bucks, how in the world was he suppose to make money in the first place, when he is paying for the prints and layout, etc.

[Ineedhelp]

I agree with the professional approach. Everything is great in hindsight, but don't waste any more time and money on them. Send that registered letter stating your position, maybe even get a local solicitor/attorney to draft it. Have a date for response on it. Once that passes, move straight to small claims court. I would imagine that although you only have a verbal agreement, the circumstantial evidence that you were the photographer and that you were not paid even the typical market rate would make a compelling case. Even if it wasn't settled the way you'd want, you would have made life a little more difficult for them as well as for you. Additionally, this stops the possibility of you being accused of harrassment, and it may reduce the likelihood of any potential slander. Give them every chance to reasonably make repararation, then go full force for the prosecution. Don't mess about.

[IndyJeff]

Don't put an ad in the newspaper or you most likely will find yourself in court, as the defendant rather than the plaintiff.

Send them a certified or registered letter, return receipt requested, which I am sure they will not sign for so it will be returned to you, stamped REFUSED.

Quit calling them 6 times a day, that is defined as harrassment by the Fair Debt Collection Act and you could be liable for a judgement in civil court. That would be $500 minimum.

My advice, walk away. If you still have the photos hang on to them and maybe someday they will call asking about them. If they do, the price is $800 CASH, no checks, no previewing, no buy now pay later deals. Cash on the barrelhead, nothing else.

Keep that wedding album in a prominate place in your home where you will see it often and the next time you have someone call you about doing a wedding, look at the album before you go. Have a written contract which stipulates, dates, times, payment, delivery of product. Sign it, have them sign it and each party gets a copy.

Consider this all a cheap lesson in WP business and be thankful they didn't stiff you for $2000.

[BDM]

I don't know exactly what that would accomplish putting them on all the forums, but I wouldn't. If you had a contract I would just go after them that way. File it with the credit bearu. If you had no contract then there might be nothing you can do. You could take them to small claims court. Used to see small stuff like this all the time on Judge Judy. According to those courts, even verbal agreements are legal.

Most verbal agreements (with a few exceptions) are legal (i.e. enforcible) but there are two potential problems: without something in writing it is your word against theirs and (2) collection may be hard even if you get a judgment.

So, in the future always have a written agreement spelling out your responsibilities, their responsibilities, what money is due, when, what penalities will attach (interest) if payment is not timely and, of course, never do anything without first having a deposit that will at least cover your expenses. Otherwise, you are simply financing a part of their wedding. You can't do that and stay in business. If they balk at paying a reasonable deposit invite them to go elsewhere. If they won't pay a deposit imagine how willing they may be to pay the rest of your fee. You don't want customers like that.

You could try small claims court but first check to see how much the filing fee is. It could approach or exceed $100.00. If it does, you will have to decide whether it is worth your time, trouble and additional, out of pocket expense to file a case. You would probably be awarded the filing fee as costs in the judgment but again, that is only helpful if you can collect.

Good luck.

Bruce

[Dubsta]

Everyone need to calm down, I'm not going to do anything to deface them. I never said I was going to.

And to all the non-professional comments, gimme a break. You make a joke on the "serious business interweb" and all of a sudden all the haters come out to play...simmer down and get a life...it is the internet afterall.

I called them back on Friday, Groom answered and apologized to me for about 30 minutes. Saying he should have called, they have problems with their phone, mortages, land deeds, water bills, phone bills...etc...

They say they are paying this week sometime...I will update soon.

[Dubsta]

It was never really about the money...it was the whole principal behind it.

[DocFrankenstein]

Good for you!

I'm starting to wonder how long the marriage is gonna last... Bill problems since the very beginning...

[Jon, The Elder]

Get Cash, my friend, get cash !

[Dubsta]

Cash for sure...

[CanonXTuser]

It was not my first wedding, just one of my first...I only did about 5-6.

Anyway, thanks for the help everyone...I called back yesterday like 6 times, from my work phone and from my cell phone. NO answer, then when I called from a phone they would not recognize, the sitter answered...and she didn't seem to be too happy.

Anyway, they didn't call me back...I plan to call them every single day....I will update as it goes along.


Nothing here sounds like you are joking and you make no effort to signal to people that you are exaggerating ... smilies for example.

People weren't trying to "hate you" just to "hate you" but honestly trying to dissuade you from using methods that WOULD HARM YOU ,... you ... you ... you ... professionally ie. the benefit is for you not us.

That's being a jerk to now now bash others FOR YOUR MISTAKE in not making yourself clear about whether you were just kidding or actually behaving this way.

If this is an example of how you react, I'm starting to feel much more sympathy with the nonpaying customer.

[jra]

Must've been diggin' through the archives huh?

[rhys]

If you do get a deposit before the wedding and the rest after then you must ensure the deposit covers your expenses should the rest of the money not be forthcoming.

Personally, I'm in favour of doing the photos and selling a CD rather than doing any prints.

[PIXI_666]

Send an invoice with net 14 and urgent payment needed

[PIXI_666]

whats in your contract btw?
You should ALWAYS get money upfront before the wedding...

[Protege Menace]

wow old bump.

So did you get the money?

[PIXI_666]

yeh i just noticed im a bit slow i didnt read hru the whole post...thats something i never do LOL