What makes a good B&W photo?

[buurin]

I've recently started making my own prints (Canon Pixma Pro 9000 Mark II) & I want to delve into some B&W work to print on some heavy fine art papers.

The problem is I really can't seem to identify photos that look good in B&W, and if I do find one I think would look good my conversion is usually not pleasing to me.

I've considered the fact that perhaps I just don't like B&W hence why I don't like my results. I'll post some edits when I get home.

So my questions:
1) What do you look for in a photo to be converted to B&W
2) Any good books/links on the conversion process. Preferably in Lightroom3, although I do own CS3 but I am not comfortable using it.
3) Any links of high quality B&W photos to inspire me?

My current process is as follows:
1) I browse my photos for subjects with uninteresting/unimportant colors. If the colors are interesting or important I don't see why I'd convert to B&W
2) I then preview the B&W presets of Lightroom 3 as a starting point.
3) When I find a preset I like I select it.
4) I then just tweak certain settings. Many times I recover the highlights if nescesary & I'll try to give the photo more contrast via the contrast and blacks sliders.

I feel like my results are just kind of grey & dull - especially in print.

[Spacemunkie]

1) I browse my photos for subjects with uninteresting/unimportant colors. If the colors are interesting or important I don't see why I'd convert to B&W.

Nooooooo!

First BIG mistake! Strong colour = much potential in b&w. Saturation and luminance sliders give you bags of control in monochrome - even many of the colour filter presets in LR will radically alter how an image looks if it features strong colour.

On top of this I look for tone/contrast, texture, negative space, strong geometric shapes or lines... much of it is what you'd possibly look for in any photo.

I particularly like this book by Tony Worobiec (great monochrome worker...) and Ray Spence: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0715325620/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=1278548962&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0817453725&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=12DE9TYA9C9GMWCSWZDR

Clearly and simply laid out, some excellent little tutes/techniques and decent eye candy :)

[Spacemunkie]

I'm not a massive adherent to this, but it's worth reading up on and knowing about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_System

[Staszek]

I agree with Scott. A good b&w does not come out of a poor color. I look for a texture or emotion for b&w's. The monochrome really makes either one pop. I'm also heavy handed on contrast, clarity, and grain. I personally leave the LR presets alone.

[Clean Gene]

1) I browse my photos for subjects with uninteresting/unimportant colors. If the colors are interesting or important I don't see why I'd convert to B&W


I probably have noi idea what I'm talking about, but that seems a little bit backwards to me. It sounds like instead of saying "I'll convert this into black and white because it'll probably look good in black and white", it isntead sounds like you're saying "I'll convert this into black and white because it looks boring in color." And then getting surprised when it looks boring in black and white as well.

I mean...it sounds like you're starting off by treating black and white as the horribly deformed son who gets kept in the basement and only gets fed when the FAVORITE son doesn't feel like eating dinner. It sounds like black and white is sort of getting treated as a mangy nasty dog who's begging for scraps. You might throw that dog a few scraps of steak, but it's only going to be the nasty pieces of fat and gristle that aren't good enough for the PEOPLE sitting around the table eating dinner. Likewise, if the only pictures that get the black and white treatment are the ones that aren't good enough for color, then it's not exactly shocking if they end up being dull and boring.

But again...I have no idea what I'm talking about, I just like to type a lot.

Anyway, I think I'd ask you the same question. What makes a good black and white photograph? Surely you've liked OTHER people's black and white photographs, or else I'd assume that you wouldn't be trying to do your own. And if that's the case, then what did YOU like about those other people's photographs?

[buurin]

Haha, thanks for the advice - I think that makes tons of sense. A boring color photo isn't going to to improve itself by removing the color.

I do think I just don't like B&W and am thinking of just giving it up and not trying to force it. I'll stick to color until it just feels natural to go B&W. I just hope I'm not missing opportunities for good photos.

Here are my sample color vs b&w... I won't bias opinions but I think 1 of these B&W is better than the color.

#1 (I just noticed a vingette & dust here in this)
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5292/5392734648_a26f5d8c52_b.jpg
#1-BW
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5177/5392136147_9066600a3a_b.jpg
#2
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5299/5392734714_405065b67f_b.jpg
#2-BW
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5052/5392734674_c3d566611b_b.jpg
#3
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5218/5392734610_35252de57e_b.jpg
#3-BW
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5174/5392734592_396f520030_b.jpg

[Clean Gene]

I'm pretty sure that I prefer #3 in black and white.

It's already a pretty simple image (nothing wrong with that), just a couple of bikes against a bare wall. In the color version, I keep wanting to look at the red bike. Because, well...it's red. So I start looking at the red bike, and I keep looking at it, but I can't really tell why I'm supposed to be looking at it.

Vs the black and white picture. Once you remove the color, then I start looking more at the shape of the bikes in contrast with the blank wall. The brown of the wall no longer has to compete with the reds and the blacks and the whites. The red bike on the left no longer has to compete with the white bike and the wall. In both versions, it seems like the point of the picture is the contrast between the design of the bikes and the barren emptiness of the wall. It seems like the point was to show shapes and forms against a blank background. I could be very wrong. But if I'm right, I think that the black and white image works better than the color image.

[buurin]

I'm pretty sure that I prefer #3 in black and white.

It's already a pretty simple image (nothing wrong with that), just a couple of bikes against a bare wall. In the color version, I keep wanting to look at the red bike. Because, well...it's red. So I start looking at the red bike, and I keep looking at it, but I can't really tell why I'm supposed to be looking at it.

Vs the black and white picture. Once you remove the color, then I start looking more at the shape of the bikes in contrast with the blank wall. The brown of the wall no longer has to compete with the reds and the blacks and the whites. The red bike on the left no longer has to compete with the white bike and the wall. In both versions, it seems like the point of the picture is the contrast between the design of the bikes and the barren emptiness of the wall. It seems like the point was to show shapes and forms against a blank background. I could be very wrong. But if I'm right, I think that the black and white image works better than the color image.

This is exactly how I felt. Thanks for sharing your impressions, its interesting to read how people interpret & view one of my photos.

#3 is the only photo where the b&w works for me.

When I originally mentioned photos with boring or unimportant photos, its photos like this that I look for. The color doesn't add anything & even distracts in a way.

[CallumPhoto]

apparently our minds typically respond well to images with lots of grey thats about halfway between white and mid grey. that's supposedly a little thing in our minds, much like the rule of thirds.

otherwise im not really sure, for me its just something you know. sorry i cant be much more useful.