LOG IN    OR   REGISTER TO FORUMS


What's reasonable for a model release?

FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography
Thread started 01 Jun 2011 (Wednesday) 00:33   
LIST NEARBY THREADS
 
avimagery
Senior Member
Joined Sep 2010
312 posts
San Diego, CA
[MORE/SHARE]

Background: I recently attended my first groupshoot put on by a few guys on Model Mayhem, and it was a lot of fun. I got to work with some stunning models, and learned a thing or two about working with them. I'm still new to the whole process though, having only shot landscapes, aircraft and family events for most of my life. After the shoot, I processed a few of the pictures and was quite pleased with a number of them, which I added to my portfolio. None of my work is intended to be sold, only used as self promotion and marketing. One of the pictures I would like to use on the back of my business card, and after contacting the model she requested I get a model release. I agree, It think it makes it legit and covers my butt, should anything come up surrounding the image. I've never had to deal with this yet, and am now wiser to the process for future shoots.

Here's my question: The model in question is not published, nor is it her full time job; like me, she does these shoots for fun. She has asked for an $80 fee for the release (keep in mind I did pay her $40 for the time we shot 1-on-1's at the group shoot, and we had an agreement that I would send her at least 6 of the final shots; I gave her 12.) Is $80 a reasonable sum? She claims that other photographers told her she should go higher, but if I recall, most of the release's usually ran about $10-20.

What's your verdict?

Post #1, Jun 01, 2011 00:33:52


Andrew-Vincent Imagery
www.andrew-vincent.netexternal link
Canon 60D & 40D, EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM, Tamron AF70-200mm f/2.8 Di LD (IF), AlienBee B1600, Misc other gear

LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as registered member)
Mike22487
Senior Member
Joined Mar 2009
170 posts
Palm Beach, FL
[MORE/SHARE]

Ive never heard of someone charging a photographer to sign a model release, you paid her $40 for the shoot? she should have paid you for the pictures she got from you, next time specify that it will be a trade for pictures shoot (TFP), technically you should have had the release signed before one frame was shot

you should be able to find samples of releases on this forum you can mesh together to make one to your liking

Post #2, Jun 01, 2011 09:06:29




LOG IN TO REPLY
PhotosGuy
Moderator
PhotosGuy's Avatar
Joined Feb 2004
69,108 posts
S. E. Michigan
[MORE/SHARE]

As Mike said, she's been paid, but "publishing" the image on your business card is outside of the usual parameters of a shoot like that. Personally, I wouldn't pay her $0.80 more & would just forget her when I booked a model in the future because I suspect that she will be a PITA, even though she's within her rights here.

Model Releases: Sample Forms That Protect Photographersexternal link

OutreachEP Forms: http://www.editorialph​oto.com/resources/external link

Post #3, Jun 01, 2011 09:43:16


FrankC - 20D, RAW, Manual everything...
Classic Carz, Racing, Air Show, Flowers.
Find the light... A few Car Lighting Tips, and MOVE YOUR FEET!
Have you thought about making your own book? // Need an exposure crutch?
New Image Size Limits: Image must not exceed 1280 pixels on any side.

LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Cream of the Crop
RDKirk's Avatar
Joined May 2004
11,579 posts
USA
[MORE/SHARE]

I don't think she's being a PITA. Although you may not be versed in model releases, I'm sure whoever set up the groupshoot is...and deliberately excluded having the models sign any kind of blanket release. However, they should also have fully advised the participating photographers of the restrictions that imposes. They didn't do anyone a service with that omission.

Although you don't intend to sell the images to a third party, your own use is indeed commercial--she would be foolish not to insist on a release, and $80 isn't very much at all for commercial use. At this point, it's not just shooting for fun anymore, it's business.

Post #4, Jun 01, 2011 13:40:17




LOG IN TO REPLY
proimages
Senior Member
proimages's Avatar
Joined Mar 2011
292 posts
Woodland Hills CA
[MORE/SHARE]

+1 RD said it all!!
cheers
Darrin

Post #5, Jun 01, 2011 15:08:16 as a reply to RDKirk's post 1 hour earlier.


Proimages.comexternal link - DarrinNupuf.comexternal link - Nupufnudes.comexternal link - video stockexternal link - stock-photo.comexternal link
_______________
PHOTO - VIDEO - ACTION SPORTS - MOTION CAPTURE - VIRTUAL SCENES - TIME LAPSE - BACK COUNTRY - FINE ART

LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as registered member)
PhotosGuy
Moderator
PhotosGuy's Avatar
Joined Feb 2004
69,108 posts
S. E. Michigan
[MORE/SHARE]

RDKirk wrote in post #12516841external link
I don't think she's being a PITA.

Didn't say that she was. I said, "I suspect that she will be..." ;)

Part of her job should include gaining exposure & encouraging photogs (clients) to want to work with her.
Most models would be happy to get the free exposure in this situation without insisting on the extra pay, & I resist being nitpicked by someone who's been paid, received more prints than were "contracted" for, & insists on her rights to the possible detriment of her own marketing efforts.

Post #6, Jun 02, 2011 09:03:05


FrankC - 20D, RAW, Manual everything...
Classic Carz, Racing, Air Show, Flowers.
Find the light... A few Car Lighting Tips, and MOVE YOUR FEET!
Have you thought about making your own book? // Need an exposure crutch?
New Image Size Limits: Image must not exceed 1280 pixels on any side.

LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Cream of the Crop
RDKirk's Avatar
Joined May 2004
11,579 posts
USA
[MORE/SHARE]

PhotosGuy wrote in post #12521824external link
Didn't say that she was. I said, "I suspect that she will be..." ;)

Part of her job should include gaining exposure & encouraging photogs (clients) to want to work with her.
Most models would be happy to get the free exposure in this situation without insisting on the extra pay, & I resist being nitpicked by someone who's been paid, received more prints than were "contracted" for, & insists on her rights to the possible detriment of her own marketing efforts.

Someone might also say, "Most photographers would be happy to get free exposure in this situation without insisting on the extra pay....," and I would disagree there as well.

They had an initial agreement that included pay for "practice and fun" time. That agreement did not include any releases or licenses for either party for further commercial use. That agreement was concluded and done when the OP delivered the products, even if he delivered more than the agreement required.

Having delivered more than the agreement required did not imply that any additional performance on the model's part was required. There is no "I gave you more than I agreed, so I get to demand more than you agreed." I would not accept that as a photographer or a businessman, and I would not expect anyone else to accept it either.

So now the OP wants an additional service that was not included in the orginal agreement--yes, just as I would expect to provide an additional license for an additional service, so should the model.

And I reject the "you should be happy to do free work for greater exposure" argument as a photographer, so I would not be surprised if she rejected it as a model.

Post #7, Jun 02, 2011 10:25:45




LOG IN TO REPLY
thebishopp
Goldmember
Joined Jun 2008
1,895 posts
Indiana
[MORE/SHARE]

On shoots like the one you mentioned I have all the models sign releases in exchange for select photos on a cd. Part of what they get is a license to use said photos in their portfolios (which includes submitting to agencies for consideration for work).

If they want me to pay then they had better be an awesome model with such a unique look that I would believe their photos would actually bring me business... and they wouldn't be getting anything other than the pay.

Personally I would sooner pay for a good mua before I would pay for a model. It's amazing what a good mua can do to someone's look.

Post #8, Jun 02, 2011 10:47:02


"Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data, ability to repeat discredited memes, and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Also, be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor even implied. Any irrelevancies you can mention will also be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous." My Zenexternal link

LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Cream of the Crop
RDKirk's Avatar
Joined May 2004
11,579 posts
USA
[MORE/SHARE]

thebishopp wrote in post #12522436external link
On shoots like the one you mentioned I have all the models sign releases in exchange for select photos on a cd. Part of what they get is a license to use said photos in their portfolios (which includes submitting to agencies for consideration for work).

Yes, that should have been taken care of by the organizers, but apparently wasn't.

Post #9, Jun 02, 2011 12:00:36




LOG IN TO REPLY
proimages
Senior Member
proimages's Avatar
Joined Mar 2011
292 posts
Woodland Hills CA
[MORE/SHARE]

RDKirk wrote in post #12522826external link
Yes, that should have been taken care of by the organizers, but apparently wasn't.

I've done a few group shoots, typically you pay extra for a model release if you like the shots, since the OP didn't pay on the spot (20-40) and work a deal with the model. $80 seems really fair to me. Pay it and make those shots work for you!! Sounds like shes keeping it real!!

Its hard, but the lesson I've learned..get that release worked out before you start shooting!! and before showing any shots to the models!!
They see you have a hot shot the price goes up.

Another area to watch out for is the switch up..girl shoots topless and then writes 'no nipples' on release..that one cause me some grief..great shots, release and controversy grrrr never shoot with that model again!

work out the deal and get the signatures early!!!

cheers
Darrin

Post #10, Jun 02, 2011 12:25:07


Proimages.comexternal link - DarrinNupuf.comexternal link - Nupufnudes.comexternal link - video stockexternal link - stock-photo.comexternal link
_______________
PHOTO - VIDEO - ACTION SPORTS - MOTION CAPTURE - VIRTUAL SCENES - TIME LAPSE - BACK COUNTRY - FINE ART

LOG IN TO REPLY
PhotosGuy
Moderator
PhotosGuy's Avatar
Joined Feb 2004
69,108 posts
S. E. Michigan
[MORE/SHARE]

RDKirk wrote in post #12522324external link
They had an initial agreement that included pay for "practice and fun" time. That agreement did not include any releases or licenses for either party for further commercial use. That agreement was concluded and done when the OP delivered the products, even if he delivered more than the agreement required.

I didn't say that she wasn't within her rights to ask for more money. But I don't think she's acting in her own best interests.

Post #11, Jun 02, 2011 20:41:53


FrankC - 20D, RAW, Manual everything...
Classic Carz, Racing, Air Show, Flowers.
Find the light... A few Car Lighting Tips, and MOVE YOUR FEET!
Have you thought about making your own book? // Need an exposure crutch?
New Image Size Limits: Image must not exceed 1280 pixels on any side.

LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as registered member)
thebishopp
Goldmember
Joined Jun 2008
1,895 posts
Indiana
[MORE/SHARE]

Ok OP, I'm curious. What do these photos look like? Post at least one of what you consider your best photo so we can weigh in on if it is even worth paying extra for her to sign a model release.

Post #12, Jun 02, 2011 23:19:07


"Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data, ability to repeat discredited memes, and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Also, be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor even implied. Any irrelevancies you can mention will also be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous." My Zenexternal link

LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Cream of the Crop
RDKirk's Avatar
Joined May 2004
11,579 posts
USA
[MORE/SHARE]

thebishopp wrote in post #12526540external link
Ok OP, I'm curious. What do these photos look like? Post at least one of what you consider your best photo so we can weigh in on if it is even worth paying extra for her to sign a model release.

I see unimpressive girls in advertisements all over town, and I still think every one of them deserved to make at least $120 on the gig. I don't think any commercial modeling image worth using at all is worth less than that.

Post #13, Jun 02, 2011 23:26:58




LOG IN TO REPLY
avimagery
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
Joined Sep 2010
312 posts
San Diego, CA
[MORE/SHARE]

Thanks for the input. I've learned my lesson when dealing with the models at these groupshoots. In the future, I am going to be sure to get the release the day of the event, and take your advice about doing it before the first pic is even taken.

Bishop, here is a link to my original post of her pics, although after reading this thread I'm starting to wonder if I need to take it down until I get the release: http://photography-on-the.net .../showthread.php?t=1​034084

Post #14, Jun 02, 2011 23:27:43


Andrew-Vincent Imagery
www.andrew-vincent.netexternal link
Canon 60D & 40D, EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM, Tamron AF70-200mm f/2.8 Di LD (IF), AlienBee B1600, Misc other gear

LOG IN TO REPLY
thebishopp
Goldmember
Joined Jun 2008
1,895 posts
Indiana
[MORE/SHARE]

generally speaking you can display the photos, you just can't grant anyone commercial usage of them or use them yourself in advertising. heck if you wanted to you could even sell prints of them as fine art.

Just hopped over and looked at them.

IMO you could easily replicate those shots with a model who has signed a tfcd model release agreement with you. Cost you nothing other than the time it takes to get there, take the photos, and then pp them later. No offense to the "model", she is cute, but personally she would have to be a heck of a lot better for me to pay her (and I have seen a few that I would be willing to pay). For god's sakes man you live in San Diego.

Post #15, Jun 02, 2011 23:49:41


"Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data, ability to repeat discredited memes, and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Also, be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor even implied. Any irrelevancies you can mention will also be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous." My Zenexternal link

LOG IN TO REPLY


LIST NEARBY THREADS
752 views & 0 likes for this thread
What's reasonable for a model release?
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography



NOT A MEMBER YET? CLICK HERE TO REGISTER TO FORUMS

CHANGE BODY TEXT SIZE FOR ALL THREAD PAGES
POWERED BY AMASS 1.0version 1.0
made in Finland
by Pekka Saarinen
for photography-on-the.net


SEND FEEDBACK TO STAFF  |  JUMP TO FORUM...  |  FORUM RULES


Spent 0.00231 for 5 database queries.
PAGE COMPLETED IN 0.03s
965 guests, 753 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 3341, that happened on Dec 11, 2014
Latest registered member is Wiebe2014

COOKIES DISCLAIMER: By using this site you agree that some cookies will be stored on your browser. For unlogged users we store one session id cookie. For registered members we store (in addition to login session cookie) only cookies that are essential for required functionality, we do not store any personal tracking data in cookies or other browser's data storage methods.