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My gosh! The Pentax K-5 has ridiculous dynamic range! (Sample shot linked)

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Thread started 07 Nov 2010 (Sunday) 16:43   
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Yohan ­ Pamudji
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Man, this thread started as one extolling the virtues of the Pentax K-5, but because it shares a sensor with the Nikon D7000 the Nikon ends up hijacking the thread. Pentax just can't win, even when they do something awesome.

Post #61, Nov 09, 2010 17:29:02




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Riveredger
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Yohan Pamudji wrote in post #11255125external link
Man, this thread started as one extolling the virtues of the Pentax K-5, but because it shares a sensor with the Nikon D7000 the Nikon ends up hijacking the thread. Pentax just can't win, even when they do something awesome.

lol. True that. I like this Pentax a lot, though, I have to say. :cool:

Post #62, Nov 09, 2010 17:36:04


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Yohan Pamudji wrote in post #11255125external link
Man, this thread started as one extolling the virtues of the Pentax K-5, but because it shares a sensor with the Nikon D7000 the Nikon ends up hijacking the thread. Pentax just can't win, even when they do something awesome.

Well, they are essentially same as far as DR and IQ go. Nikon definately has a lot more appealing lens lineup, but Pentax has a lot of small primes if that's your thing. :)

And yeah, go check out the dpreview forums. Essentially the Canon and Sony forums are normal, rational discussions--and the Pentax and Nikon forums are full of people attacking one another from the other corresponding forum, about which is better (Pentax vs Nikon), etc. :P It's good to see Pentax getting attention though imho. The more competition the better for *everyone*--regardless of what you shoot.

Post #63, Nov 09, 2010 17:40:10


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John ­ Sheehy
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tkbslc wrote in post #11254801external link
Perhaps I am ignorant, but it is not self explanatory. I'd love to see some examples where it is improving real photos, and/or prints.

What should be self-explanatory is that the examples seen so far are not meant to be anything but demonstrations of the cameras capability, not show off full photographic potential. There are people who understand the implications of that potential immediately, not only from the -8.5 to -9EC duck with the $20, but from the DxO charts as well.

Only a few people have had these cameras, for a few days, and most don't even realize the potential. I really don't know why anyone would think there would be a lot of samples of something which hasn't existed before, and hasn't had time to work its way into people's consciousness and workflow, and isn't optimized for yet in converters.

I have Canons. I don't have a high-DR camera to demonstrate.

I can only do a shot on the 5D2, under-exposed the same amount as the K5 Duck/$20 shot, in the same kind of light, and show you the RAWs, both downsampled to the same size (800 pixels wide); ISO 100 on the 5D2; ISO 80 on the K5; whitepoints 9.5 stops below RAW saturation in both:

IMAGE: http://www.pbase.com/jps_photo/image/130201122/original.jpg

Post #64, Nov 09, 2010 17:41:48




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tkbslc
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I just don't get why being able to underexpose 40 stops is so cool. I really don't. I'm not trying to be a prick or anything, I honestly want to know what is so great about it.

Post #65, Nov 09, 2010 17:57:21


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tkbslc wrote in post #11255267external link
I just don't get why being able to underexpose 40 stops is so cool. I really don't. I'm not trying to be a prick or anything, I honestly want to know what is so great about it.

It's not about being able to rescue underexposed images. It's about being able to capture scenes where, even if you expose correctly, the dynamic range is too great for most current sensors to capture.

Ever taken a photo of a sunset? With a jagged horizon (mountains, trees, giraffe necks, whatever) so that filters aren't an option?

Expose for the sky and the ground appears black. Expose for the ground and the sky is blown out. Expose somewhere in the middle, and the sky still appears almost white, and the ground still appears almost black. Try to correct it by pushing the black foreground in post-processing and you get very little except random noise.

Enter the expanded dynamic range of this sensor. Expose for the sky and the ground still appears black, with the standard tone curve. Adjust the curve a bit, though, to push the shadows a few stops, and you get clean, relatively noise-free foreground detail. Voila - you've exposed for both the sky and the ground in a single exposure. Moving animals or tree branches? No problem - with standard blended images or HDR, you'd have a much harder time with anything that moves.

The same applies if you're shooting any high-dynamic-range scene.

Sure, if you mainly shoot people/weddings/anythi​ng in controlled lighting, or where fill flash is possible, it may not matter. But, for anyone who shoots in situation where you don't have control of lighting, every extra stop of dynamic range is invaluable.

Post #66, Nov 09, 2010 18:10:24




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Shadowblade wrote in post #11255335external link
But, for anyone who shoots in situation where you don't have control of lighting, every extra stop of dynamic range is invaluable.

+ 11

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woos
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Could be useful for single raw file HDR conversion stuff as well. Though I'd rather have the extra DR available in the highlights personally (and have a 16-bit raw file for it), this does kind of let you do that (in a way). To the 5dmk2 example posted above--try it at iso 200 and the results will probably be much cleaner (but maybe not, I don't have one to try).

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John ­ Sheehy
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tkbslc wrote in post #11255267external link
I just don't get why being able to underexpose 40 stops is so cool. I really don't. I'm not trying to be a prick or anything, I honestly want to know what is so great about it.

1) It's virtual auto-ISO-M, whether the camera explicitly gives it or not. If you can use auto-ISO in M mode, you can let a camera like the K5 stay at ISO 160, let's say (80 is probably a tad posterized, as it really needs a little more than 14 bits). Under the hood, it is close to the same thing - you just don't get the bright review image, unless the camera does some "auto-ISO JPEG" based on the RAW histogram (like ALO, but more flexible). On a Canon DSLR, especially the 7D and 5D2, it is disastrous to get high exposure indices this way.

2) You can retain highlights, as others have mentioned. Do you really want traffic lights and neon signs to be white, if you try to get dark streets with low noise? Do you want the sun to blow out in a sunset?

3) Compressed RAW files can be much smaller doing high ISOs by "under-exposure" instead of empty analog gain, while giving the same noise and room for unexpected (or expected) highlight areas.

4) Safety net (exposure latitude)- nothing wrong with that.

Post #69, Nov 09, 2010 19:11:05




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John ­ Sheehy
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woos wrote in post #11255558external link
Could be useful for single raw file HDR conversion stuff as well. Though I'd rather have the extra DR available in the highlights personally (and have a 16-bit raw file for it), this does kind of let you do that (in a way). To the 5dmk2 example posted above--try it at iso 200 and the results will probably be much cleaner (but maybe not, I don't have one to try).

200 as a starting point will give less noise on the 5D2. 200 is a stop less of the sensor DR available, though. You'd have to get to 800 before the 5D2 is even close to the K5 for this. The only ISOs and tones that the 5d2 is going to be better at is highlights and brighter midtones at low ISOs, and highlights at medium ISOs, where photon shot noise dominates, but only by a small margin. The K5 sensor is smaller, but it has more quantum efficiency (look how little better it is at "SNR 18% / Print"), which is a direct reflection on photons collected.

Post #70, Nov 09, 2010 19:18:04




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Nikon already uses the DR to some degree in the camera...on the d-lighting modes it underexposes the shot and brings the shadows back up.

Post #71, Nov 09, 2010 19:22:35


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I luv that 5d2 shot. ;)

Post #72, Nov 09, 2010 19:26:26


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John Sheehy wrote in post #11255179external link
Only a few people have had these cameras, for a few days, and most don't even realize the potential. I really don't know why anyone would think there would be a lot of samples of something which hasn't existed before, and hasn't had time to work its way into people's consciousness and workflow, and isn't optimized for yet in converters.

While that is true for the most part, it hasn't been several days. The K-5 has been out for almost a month now. I would have expected more tests to be out there by now.

Post #73, Nov 09, 2010 19:37:07


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Raylon wrote in post #11255746external link
While that is true for the most part, it hasn't been several days. The K-5 has been out for almost a month now. I would have expected more tests to be out there by now.

How long has anyone known about its DR, and how many people actually have it? Only a small percentage of camera owners even notice things like this.

Most web sites that compare cameras don't even have test shots that use more than about 6 stops of DR. The black mug is typically only 6 stops below RAW saturation in the Imaging Resource shots!

Post #74, Nov 09, 2010 19:43:24




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John Sheehy wrote in post #11255784external link
How long has anyone known about its DR, and how many people actually have it? Only a small percentage of camera owners even notice things like this.

Over on Pentax forums they have known for quite a while, and quite a few people have it. This picture among others has been floating around since the end of September. And the guys who have the cameras are definitely the type to realize and test these sorts of things.

http://www.bertin.ca .../K-5_ISO6400_ACR6_MED.jpgexternal link

Post #75, Nov 09, 2010 19:55:21


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