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Thread started 09 Apr 2012 (Monday) 19:40
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What is it about full frame?!

 
Sage
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Apr 10, 2012 14:55 |  #61

Razeus wrote in post #14242543external link
I wonder how many people are moving into the FF market now that the 5DMII and D700 are in a reasonable (for us) price range. This shows there's a huge market that Canon and Nikon haven't been tapping in the $2k full frame range.

Not only a huge market, but also a 'double' one ;-)a

I can imagine there are lot's of people finding out about FF after already having bought a crop. While researching lenses, reading forums etc. it comes up ... damn ... DSRL number 2 is on the list.

You're just reading a post from one of those guys ;-)a


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stsva
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Apr 10, 2012 14:58 |  #62

Numenorean wrote in post #14242871external link
Okay people. Both of these are shot with 135L at f/4. One is full frame. One is crop. Both were mounted to the same tripod in the same position and nothing was moved. Other than perhaps an extremely small subject distance variation between the two L-Plates, everything else is the same. Which is which? Notice how the DOF is the same.

The in-focus/out-of-focus areas may look the same, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the DOF is the same. Not knowing which cameras you used it's impossible to know the native resolution for each, but unless they were equal you apparently re-sized one or the other image so they would display at the same size when posted here. That re-sizing could have affected the area of apparently acceptable sharpness in whichever image was re-sized, which could throw the apparent DOF off. In any event, according to the way DOF is defined and calculated, under the conditions you describe the crop sensor camera would have less DOF than the full frame camera.


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Numenorean
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Apr 10, 2012 15:01 |  #63

stsva wrote in post #14242924external link
The in-focus/out-of-focus areas may look the same. According to the way DOF is defined and calculated, however, under the conditions you describe the crop sensor camera would have less DOF than the full frame camera.

But it doesn't and that isn't true.

Which is which? Why are they the same if they are supposed to be different?


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davidc502
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Apr 10, 2012 15:03 |  #64

Numenorean wrote in post #14242871external link
Okay people. Both of these are shot with 135L at f/4. One is full frame. One is crop. Both were mounted to the same tripod in the same position and nothing was moved. Other than perhaps an extremely small subject distance variation between the two L-Plates, everything else is the same. Which is which? Notice how the DOF is the same.

Where you gain (get less) DOF on 35mm compared to APS-C is when you move closer to the subject to fill the same frame.

"As sensor size increases, the depth of field will decrease for a given aperture (when filling the frame with a subject of the same size and distance). This is because larger sensors require one to get closer to their subject, or to use a longer focal length in order to fill the frame with that subject." - quoted from Cambrige in Colour.


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Charlie
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Apr 10, 2012 15:04 |  #65

the talk about perspective shouldnt have been introduced at all. The perspective that's being debated in this thread is INDEPENDENT of FF and Crops. Foot zooming gives different perspective whether you shoot FF or crop. We should really toss out any perspective discussions if you want to compare FF vs crop. The discussion should be with same shooting distance and same FOV to limit any confusion.


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stsva
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Apr 10, 2012 15:05 |  #66

Numenorean wrote in post #14242946external link
But it doesn't and that isn't true.

Which is which? Why are they the same if they are supposed to be different?

Please see my edited post. It is in fact correct ("true") that, according to the standard definition of DOF and the resulting calculations, under the conditions you describe (same focal length, same f-stop, same distance to subject), a crop sensor camera will have shallower DOF than a full frame camera. Feel free to disagree with the standard definition and calculations, but they are the standard.


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Numenorean
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Apr 10, 2012 15:08 |  #67

stsva wrote in post #14242963external link
Please see my edited post. It is in fact correct ("true") that, according to the standard definition of DOF and the resulting calculations, under the conditions you describe (same focal length, same f-stop, same distance to subject), a crop sensor camera will have shallower DOF than a full frame camera. Feel free to disagree with the standard definition and calculations, but they are the standard.

That doesn't change anything.

DOF is still exactly the same. If you CHANGE other factors like distance to subject or focal length, then OF COURSE you will affect the DOF.

135mm f/4 has the exact same DOF on either crop or full frame at the same subject distance. You WILL get different field of view, but the DOF does not change.

The calculators are assuming that you are changing the FOV on the full frame to match that of the crop. In doing so, you are no longer taking the same picture that you took on the crop, so of course the DOF changes.

If it's somehow different - please explain why in the photos I posted it is not.


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Charlie
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Apr 10, 2012 15:10 |  #68

Numenorean wrote in post #14242946external link
But it doesn't and that isn't true.

Which is which? Why are they the same if they are supposed to be different?

to be clear, same FOV and same shooting distance, FF will have less DOF. For all intents and purposes, people buy lenses for the FOV is has. Crop users generally aim for 17-50's or 17-85's which is similar FOV to 24-70's or 24-105's of FF. it keeps the comparisons much closer to an apples to apples comparison.


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Sage
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Apr 10, 2012 15:11 |  #69

Numenorean wrote in post #14242871external link
Okay people. Both of these are shot with 135L at f/4. One is full frame. One is crop. Both were mounted to the same tripod in the same position and nothing was moved. Other than perhaps an extremely small subject distance variation between the two L-Plates, everything else is the same. Which is which? Notice how the DOF is the same.

The second picture looks much sharper (and better) to me.

Besides the DOF discussion, the colors are also different.


Canon 5D MarkIII | 60D | EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 | 16-35mm f/2.8 L | 24-70mm f/2.8 L | 70-200mm f/4 L | 135mm f/2 L | EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS
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stsva
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Apr 10, 2012 15:11 |  #70

Numenorean wrote in post #14242975external link
That doesn't change anything.

DOF is still exactly the same. If you CHANGE other factors like distance to subject or focal length, then OF COURSE you will affect the DOF.

135mm f/4 has the exact same DOF on either crop or full frame at the same subject distance. You WILL get different field of view, but the DOF does not change.

According to the standard definition and calculation DOF is different under these conditions. You're free to disagree and make up your own definition if you want.


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Numenorean
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Apr 10, 2012 15:11 |  #71

Charlie wrote in post #14242985external link
to be clear, same FOV and same shooting distance, FF will have less DOF. For all intents and purposes, people buy lenses for the FOV is has. Crop users generally aim for 17-50's or 17-85's which is similar FOV to 24-70's or 24-105's of FF. it keeps the comparisons much closer to an apples to apples comparison.

You can't have the same FOV AND the same shooting distance and get the same picture without changing focal length. By changing focal length you are changing the DOF. This does NOT mean that FF has "less" DOF.


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Numenorean
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Apr 10, 2012 15:12 |  #72

stsva wrote in post #14242993external link
It does according to the standard definition and calculation. You're free to disagree and make up your own if you want.

Explain how I am wrong. I took two photos at the same focal length, aperture, distance to subject, ISO, shutter, etc. Everything is the same. The cameras changed. The DOF is the same.


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davidc502
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Apr 10, 2012 15:12 |  #73

Charlie wrote in post #14242985external link
to be clear, same FOV and same shooting distance, FF will have less DOF. For all intents and purposes, people buy lenses for the FOV is has. Crop users generally aim for 17-50's or 17-85's which is similar FOV to 24-70's or 24-105's of FF. it keeps the comparisons much closer to an apples to apples comparison.

Apeture plays a part in this too.. don't forget to mention apeture because if you were shooting f/4, and I was shooting @f/2.5, we'd have the same DOF!

Cheers,

David


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Numenorean
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Apr 10, 2012 15:13 |  #74

bipodsnapster wrote in post #14242992external link
The second picture looks much sharper (and better) to me.

Besides the DOF discussion, the colors are also different.

So the second picture is which camera? Crop or FF?

Anyway....yes the colors are different, I didn't go out of my way to adjust white balance exactly the same or whatever.


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The ­ Fox
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Apr 10, 2012 15:17 |  #75

The reason people thing FF is a huge advantage is them never using medium format digital.

Nick


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