Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Read More.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 08 May 2012 (Tuesday) 09:33
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Does a full frame see less light?

 
JakAHearts
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,651 posts
Gallery: 6 photos
Likes: 950
Joined Sep 2010
Location: Silver Spring, MD
     
May 08, 2012 11:50 |  #16

Post pictures with Exif intact. :D


Shane
flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
Numenorean
Cream of the Crop
5,013 posts
Likes: 27
Joined Feb 2011
     
May 08, 2012 11:51 |  #17

What's your shutter speed?


Gear List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Wilt
Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1]
Avatar
40,111 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 1992
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Belmont, CA
     
May 08, 2012 12:14 |  #18

snapshot2011 wrote in post #14399136 (external link)
tests were conducted in manual and flash bounced off ceiling.

I have made the test very fair, but the 5d just doesn't see the light like the 60d does

Just to prove that "larger format does not need 'more light' "...ISO 100, 1/160 f/7.1, manual flash power

40D

IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/40Dmanualflash.jpg

5D
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/5Dmanualflash.jpg

If anything, these two shots would seem to indicate "smaller format does need 'more light' " is true! :lol:

You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support http://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.p​hp
Canon dSLR system, Olympus OM 35mm system, Bronica ETRSi 645 system, Horseman LS 4x5 system, Metz flashes, Dynalite studio lighting, and too many accessories to mention

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
btweller
Member
213 posts
Likes: 46
Joined Nov 2011
Location: Hickory Hills, IL
     
May 08, 2012 14:58 |  #19

Wilt wrote in post #14399307 (external link)
Just to prove that "larger format does not need 'more light' "...ISO 100, 1/160 f/7.1, manual flash power

40D
QUOTED IMAGE

5D
QUOTED IMAGE

If anything, these two shots would seem to indicate "smaller format does need 'more light' " is true! :lol:

Did you physically move the 5D closer to get the same framing, or did you switch lenses? If you moved the camera closer, I'd argue that is the reason the 5D shot is brighter. Assuming a speedlight in the hotshoe, on manual power your flash-to-subject distance just decreased.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tkbslc
Cream of the Crop
24,567 posts
Likes: 15
Joined Nov 2008
Location: Utah, USA
     
May 08, 2012 15:05 |  #20

24mm on FF is very wide, 24mm on crop is not. So your light bounce would have to cover more area of the room to fill the entire scene with light. The flash (in ETTL) should increase output to compensate for the wider angle, but sometime you are at the limit or metering is fooled. If you used 38mm on the FF camera (24mm x 1.6 = 38mm) you should get the same light bounce and exposure.


Taylor
Galleries: Flickr (external link)
60D | ELPH 330 | iPhone 5s

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
dmward
Cream of the Crop
8,960 posts
Gallery: 28 photos
Likes: 1013
Joined Jun 2009
Location: Metro Chicago
     
May 08, 2012 15:13 |  #21

Come on guys.
The physics of light and lens design haven't changed just because the light receptor is a digital sensor instead of film.
Think about this for a second; Tri-X film in a 35mm, 2 1/4 sq, and 4x5 camera, all took the same exposure. Now there were shutter and lens transmission differences that might have some minimal impact. And I could put all three sizes of film in the same developer for the same amount of time to get negatives with the same characteristics.
Same is true today with different sized sensors. There may be manufacturing tolerances that minimally affect the outcome but different cameras, with different sensor sizes, using a zoom lens on a tripod with manual metering, exposure and consistent light output will deliver essentially the same digital negative to Lightroom (or whatever digital "developer" you use). If you are doing the test with JPGs then all bets are off, because there is no way to be certain the in-camera raw processing to JPG is consistent.

Better film example would have been Ektachrome 64, which I did many times on multiple formats for clients


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Wilt
Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1]
Avatar
40,111 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 1992
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Belmont, CA
     
May 08, 2012 15:19 |  #22

btweller wrote in post #14400123 (external link)
Did you physically move the 5D closer to get the same framing, or did you switch lenses? If you moved the camera closer, I'd argue that is the reason the 5D shot is brighter. Assuming a speedlight in the hotshoe, on manual power your flash-to-subject distance just decreased.

I used the Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8 zoom. Set it to 28mm for 40D shot, then zoomed it to frame the same area for the 5D shot. both cameras put on the same tripod for the shots.
Metz 54MZ flash on Manual power. No change to camera position, zoom head set to 28mm direct flash for both shots (to cover the same physical area from the same distance)

Shots captured in RAW, imported into LR. no postprocessing done to the shots.
I had to increase exposure of the 40D in postprocessing by +0.33EV to equal the brightness of the 5D shot, but I did not post that alteration.


You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support http://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.p​hp
Canon dSLR system, Olympus OM 35mm system, Bronica ETRSi 645 system, Horseman LS 4x5 system, Metz flashes, Dynalite studio lighting, and too many accessories to mention

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
dmward
Cream of the Crop
8,960 posts
Gallery: 28 photos
Likes: 1013
Joined Jun 2009
Location: Metro Chicago
     
May 08, 2012 15:28 |  #23

Wilt wrote in post #14400228 (external link)
I used the Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8 zoom. Set it to 28mm for 40D shot, then zoomed it to frame the same area for the 4D shot. both cameras put on the same tripod for the shots.
Metz 54MZ flash on Manual power. No change to camera position, zoom head set to 28mm direct flash for both shots (to cover the same physical area from the same distance)

Shots captured in RAW, imported into LR. no postprocessing done to the shots.
I had to increase exposure of the 40D in postprocessing by +0.33EV to equal the brightness of the 5D shot, but I did not post that alteration.

Wilt,
the 1/3 stop and white balance differences are more than likely sensor characteristics between the two cameras. Would be interesting to put a color checker in the middle of the image and see what dng profiler did to get the two to a common baseline.


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Curtis ­ N
Master Flasher
Avatar
19,129 posts
Likes: 4
Joined Apr 2005
Location: Northern Illinois, US
     
May 08, 2012 15:38 |  #24

There are differences between camera bodies in how E-TTL works.

The point was made that, assuming the autozoom on your 580EX II is set to compensate for the camera's sensor size, it will zoom to a shorter focal length on the 5D and the flash range will be reduced as a result. However,
1) The E-TTL flash metering system will automatically account for that, and
2) It's irrelevant in ceiling bounce configuration.

You may want to check your camera's custom functions regarding E-TTL metering (Evaluative vs. Average), but other than that, chalk it up to differences in camera firmware and adjust FEC accordingly.


"If you're not having fun, your pictures will reflect that." - Joe McNally
Chicago area POTN events (external link)
Flash Photography 101 | The EOS Flash Bible  (external link)| Techniques for Better On-Camera Flash (external link) | How to Use Flash Outdoors| Excel-based DOF Calculator (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Wilt
Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1]
Avatar
40,111 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 1992
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Belmont, CA
     
May 08, 2012 15:55 |  #25

dmward wrote in post #14400289 (external link)
Wilt,
the 1/3 stop and white balance differences are more than likely sensor characteristics between the two cameras. Would be interesting to put a color checker in the middle of the image and see what dng profiler did to get the two to a common baseline.

David, I agree about your comment about sensor characteristics between two models.

In response to your request for AWB using LR eyedropper on 4th grayscale patch of ColorChecker (no other post processing differences between the shots). Manual flash power for both, direct flash, fixed zoom head coverage. ISO 100, 1/160 f/9 both both shots.

40D

IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/40DmanualflashAWB.jpg

5D
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/5DmanualflashAWB.jpg

You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support http://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.p​hp
Canon dSLR system, Olympus OM 35mm system, Bronica ETRSi 645 system, Horseman LS 4x5 system, Metz flashes, Dynalite studio lighting, and too many accessories to mention

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
drvnbysound
Goldmember
3,316 posts
Likes: 12
Joined Aug 2009
     
May 08, 2012 16:33 |  #26

Curious... rather than trying to do these test scenarios with manual flash, couldn't you also eliminate the same variable by removing the flash all together? Shoot the same shot with both cameras using ambient light only? I would think this would be a better way to determine if one sensor is more sensitive than another...


I use manual exposure settings on the copy machine
..::Gear Listing::.. --==Feedback==--
...A few umbrella brackets I own...

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Wilt
Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1]
Avatar
40,111 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 1992
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Belmont, CA
     
May 08, 2012 16:37 |  #27

drvnbysound wrote in post #14400632 (external link)
Curious... rather than trying to do these test scenarios with manual flash, couldn't you also eliminate the same variable by removing the flash all together? Shoot the same shot with both cameras using ambient light only? I would think this would be a better way to determine if one sensor is more sensitive than another...

Yes. Given the fact that the OP questioned the need for 'more light' from the flash with the larger sensor, I sought to directly address that perception with my test. But you are right...light is light!

Since the OP was using flash in ETTL mode, I wanted to remove the variable of the bodies telling the flasj to output a different amount of light, via Manual flash (known to be consistent to within 0.1EV, based upon measurements made with a flash meter). Keeping the flash in the test scenario would eliminate any opportunity for OP to voice issue with 'but I used flash, your tests did not'.


You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support http://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.p​hp
Canon dSLR system, Olympus OM 35mm system, Bronica ETRSi 645 system, Horseman LS 4x5 system, Metz flashes, Dynalite studio lighting, and too many accessories to mention

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
SkipD
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
20,471 posts
Likes: 151
Joined Dec 2002
Location: Southeastern WI, USA
     
May 08, 2012 17:24 |  #28

snapshot2011 wrote in post #14398464 (external link)
Is this just a moving up to full frame thing or have I an issue? To counter act this, I have to increase my FEC by +1 to get near to the 60D look.

Are you using the same focal length on both format cameras or are you changing the focal length to get the same framing with both cameras?

The reason I ask this question is because if the framing is different for the two cameras (same focal length, for example), the lighting may be analyzed as different by the two cameras because there is potentially a significant difference in the reflective qualities of the scene being analyzed by each camera's metering system.


Skip Douglas
A few cameras and over 50 years behind them .....
..... but still learning all the time.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
dmward
Cream of the Crop
8,960 posts
Gallery: 28 photos
Likes: 1013
Joined Jun 2009
Location: Metro Chicago
     
May 08, 2012 18:52 |  #29

Wilt wrote in post #14400417 (external link)
David, I agree about your comment about sensor characteristics between two models.

In response to your request for AWB using LR eyedropper on 4th grayscale patch of ColorChecker (no other post processing differences between the shots). Manual flash power for both, direct flash, fixed zoom head coverage. ISO 100, 1/160 f/9 both both shots.

40D
QUOTED IMAGE

5D
QUOTED IMAGE

Wilt,
It looks to me like they are identical. I'm looking at them on a Mac Book Air so that may add some discrepancy.

Why did you choose the 4th gray square? It's my understanding, from comments made by people in other fora that are involved in Lightroom development, that the Adobe WB tool is based on readings from the second square from the left. Although, in my experience, there is very little variance across the gray scale row.
What is interesting is the shape of a tone curve when adjusting it so that all of the squares read their defined value.


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Wilt
Reader's Digest Condensed version of War and Peace [POTN Vol 1]
Avatar
40,111 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 1992
Joined Aug 2005
Location: Belmont, CA
     
May 08, 2012 19:12 |  #30

dmward wrote in post #14401328 (external link)
Wilt,
It looks to me like they are identical. I'm looking at them on a Mac Book Air so that may add some discrepancy.

Why did you choose the 4th gray square? It's my understanding, from comments made by people in other fora that are involved in Lightroom development, that the Adobe WB tool is based on readings from the second square from the left. Although, in my experience, there is very little variance across the gray scale row.
What is interesting is the shape of a tone curve when adjusting it so that all of the squares read their defined value.

Here are the two histograms. I can see a very slight difference in the photos and the histograms. Certainly not 0.33EV worth, as the prior results showed.
40D

IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/40Dhistogram.jpg
5D
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/5Dhistogram.jpg

I chose the 4th square simply because it is same as 18% gray. That square I have found to match exposure and WB results obtained with Kodak, Douglas Gray Card, and PhotoVision target, so I have no reason to doubt its value or neutrality. I had not heard previously about the Adobe WB tool.
Got any reference link that I can read?

You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support http://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.p​hp
Canon dSLR system, Olympus OM 35mm system, Bronica ETRSi 645 system, Horseman LS 4x5 system, Metz flashes, Dynalite studio lighting, and too many accessories to mention

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

2,835 views & 0 likes for this thread
Does a full frame see less light?
FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.0forum software
version 2.0 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is mason.snipes
606 guests, 396 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 6430, that happened on Dec 03, 2017

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.