Shooting people in front of buildings at night..

[justinp85]

I was in NYC last weekend and when we were on top of the Rockefeller center, I was trying to get a picture of my gf with the empire state building in the background at night.

What settings do you all use to capture as much of the light that's naturally there in the background while trying to keep the background somewhat sharp so people know where you took the pic?

I was using the 5dm2 + 50mm 1.8 and I had something like ISO1600 or 3200, F2.8, 1/40 + flash.

[nathancarter]

My line of thinking on this matter: Meter for the background, flash for the subject.

- To have the subjects in focus and the background reasonably sharp, you need a relatively small aperture (F8? F11? F16?), and a fair amount of distance between the camera and the subject. F/2.8 is too wide to have both in focus.
- To expose for a nighttime background with a small aperture, you'll need a relatively long shutter speed. You don't need to let it light up like daytime - the meter will still say it's underexposed - but you should have enough exposure that major features are identifiable.
- Since you're using a long shutter speed, you'll need a tripod to eliminate camera shake.
- Since you're using a long shutter speed, you want the subjects to NOT be standing under or near a light source. If possible, light the subject entirely with your flash. You can freeze the subjects with a flash even if they do get a little ambient light, but you risk a little bit of ghosting if you do this.

So: Tripod, small aperture, moderately long focal length to get some distance between subject and camera, relatively long exposure, subjects not in any ambient light, flash to illuminate subjects.

Increase the ISO a bit if you need to. As long as you're properly exposed, the 5D2 can handle it, especially with some judicious noise reduction in post-processing.

And don't worry if the background is a little blurred. People will know that it's the Empire State Building back there.


Alternative method: Two shots, one with the subject in focus and a second with the background in focus; merge them in Photoshop.

[gonzogolf]

The only way to do it well is as nathan said, use a tripod so that you can capture the ambient at levels you like without having to compromise on the quality. Then add flash on the subject as needed. Just meter in your preferred method, convert those settings to M mode so you get consistency. Then flash in ETTL mode and you should be there. Manual flash is even better for consistency, but you need to be comfortable with that concept to pull it off in a hectic situation.

[justinp85]

thanks!

ah, i didn't have a tripod so i couldn't go too slow on the shutter speeds.

i am not an expert on flash and i was/am a little confused on lighting the subjects..i.e. the flash was too strong even after i turned it down to -2.0.

[gonzogolf]

Originally Posted by justinp85

thanks!

ah, i didn't have a tripod so i couldn't go too slow on the shutter speeds.

i am not an expert on flash and i was/am a little confused on lighting the subjects..i.e. the flash was too strong even after i turned it down to -2.0.

As in all flash photograph you are dealing with 2 separate and distinct exposure values. The ambient (background) exposure which when dealing with lower light is most easily controlled by using more or less shutter speed (at a given ISO) and the the flash exposure which can be controlled by adjusting the flash output, or the aperture. The best approach is to start out with picking the aperture you want for creative purposes. Then use the ISO/ and shutter speed you need to get the background to look the way you want. Then add in the flash.

[nathancarter]

I believe the metering mode will also control the ETTL flash power. So, maybe use spot metering on the subjects' faces, and tweak your FEC to compensate. If you're using average metering, ETTL may blow out the faces to try to make up for the dark background.

Also, shoot in raw which gives you a little more flexibility to correct exposures. If the flashed faces are too hot, you could reduce the exposure in the raw processor to fix the faces, then add fill light to bring the darker background back up to the desired exposure.

[wayne.robbins]

The reason why you overexposed is really because you bumped your iso up too far. You need to use a tripod, longer exposure, flash, and preferably a remote. Of course you could move back a bit from your subject- but you never really specified which flash you were using.. Was it ettl or not ?

[justinp85]

Manual Mode
50mm
F1.8
1/13
ISO 1600
Flash ETTL
Metering: Evaluative

I was able to correct the image in camera raw pretty easily.

I should also mention only pics with my gf were "overexposed" with flash compared to when she took pics of me (i am much darker than her ).

[RDKirk]

To be honest, metering a night background is not likely to provide the results you want--remember that a meter is always going to give you the setting for a medium gray of whatever subject area the meter is reading. It's more of an experimentation kind of thing to get the intended exposure for the background. Fortunately, experimentation is quick and easy with digital.

[RangersForever]

I'm just getting serious with flash (shame on me!) and I thought I'd run this past the resident experts... so this is what I would try:

1. Set camera in manual mode and select a shutter speed that gets the amount of ambient I desire.
2. Set aperture to achieve my desired DOF.
3. Set flash to rear curtain synch.
4. Shoot!

My reckoning is that you can achieve a longer exposure with your shutter speed to capture the ambient but at the same time not risk a blurry subject by ensuring that a) they are exposed by the flash and b) rear curtain synch freezes them at the end of the exposure.

I'm probably well off on this line of thinking so I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me why (or why not) this example would work?

[PaulJC]

Originally Posted by RangersForever

I'm just getting serious with flash (shame on me!) and I thought I'd run this past the resident experts... so this is what I would try:

1. Set camera in manual mode and select a shutter speed that gets the amount of ambient I desire.
2. Set aperture to achieve my desired DOF.
3. Set flash to rear curtain synch.
4. Shoot!

My reckoning is that you can achieve a longer exposure with your shutter speed to capture the ambient but at the same time not risk a blurry subject by ensuring that a) they are exposed by the flash and b) rear curtain synch freezes them at the end of the exposure.

I'm probably well off on this line of thinking so I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me why (or why not) this example would work?

Sounds good, but obviously if you change the aperture you'll have to go back and revise the shutter speed to suit

[RangersForever]

Originally Posted by PaulJC

Sounds good, but obviously if you change the aperture you'll have to go back and revise the shutter speed to suit

But if flash is in ETTL will the aperture not control the flash output to simply expose the subject? As I say, I'm just getting away from the very basic flash techniques trying to up my game so what I'm writing is mere theory without any practice to back it up...

[gonzogolf]

Originally Posted by RangersForever

But if flash is in ETTL will the aperture not control the flash output to simply expose the subject? As I say, I'm just getting away from the very basic flash techniques trying to up my game so what I'm writing is mere theory without any practice to back it up...

second curtain sync wont make a difference unless you are including a moving subject. You will need to steady your camera or a tripod to keep from getting movement which will show as blurring in the lights in the background, as the flash will freeze the main subject when it fires.

[RangersForever]

Originally Posted by gonzogolf

second curtain sync wont make a difference unless you are including a moving subject. You will need to steady your camera or a tripod to keep from getting movement which will show as blurring in the lights in the background, as the flash will freeze the main subject when it fires.

yes, exactly like I said. I'm glad it makes sense in practice too