Changing Up Prices...

[Thomas Campbell]

Obviously this is the ideal situation: but how many people in their first or second year of business find themselves in your situation?

The only reason people don't find themself in that situation is because they put the cart before the horse and try to sell their work before they know what the **** they are doing. I picked up photography again because I enjoyed it. I had a corporate sales job I didn't particularly like and wanted something to fun to do on the weekends. So I bought a camera, a couple lenses and a season pass to the zoo. And I taught myself to get better. (I did take a PJ class in college back in the film days and I studied broadcast journalism, so it wasn't exactly foreign.)

There is NO REASON that anyone here can't do what I did. The difference is, I didn't try to sell my work before I knew what I was doing. I shot for myself, put pics on my blog (that was a devoted to writing, not photography and not a business blog) and things happened. But I turned down paid shoots that were family shoots, portrait shoots and weddings when I wasn't good enough. I gave wedding referrals to friends.

So the answer to your original question is if you aren't one of the few photographers who are regularly published in major magazines, a wedding portfolio for a wedding photographer is normally a good idea.

Again, people put the cart before the horse. They want to sell work that isn't professional. Do it the right way. Learn the craft, then make it a profession. If you go book clients or give shoots away to people in your natural client, you are more likely to burn yourself. Tell them that you aren't doing that work yet, perfect it and then come in high.

You sometimes forget what it was like to be a newbie photographer shooting for a first time.

I really don't because I teach them all the time.

Workshops and training courses are fantastic value, but to a certain degree are "artificial" and you need to spend time learning the logistics of doing a photoshoot for yourself.

It is all about getting the technical things down. And when you look at the sharing section, you see so many of the new photographers don't have a clue about the technical side. If exposure and white balance are a reaction, you can spend your brain power on the things that really need it. I absolutely agree that a foam head isn't going to help you wrangle a toddler. But a toddler won't necessarily let you figure out the nuances of lighting because they are moving so much, either. A little angle changes a lot.

Workshops and training courses are fantastic value, but to a certain degree are "artificial" and you need to spend time learning the logistics of doing a photoshoot for yourself.

I disagree. If you know how to control your lighting, then you can focus your energy better on controlling your shoot.

So you agree that some people should shoot for free, yes? That shooting mannequin's and in workshops alone will not get you to the professional level?

I think everyone SHOULD shoot for free. But I do not think it is a good business decision to pollute your target market with two things:
1. Work under your target quality
2. Prices under your target range

Now there will be a degree to which you need to work up in your prices, but you should have a set target before you ever go into business. Set up a business plan that is intelligently thought out. Figure out where you want to be, what it will cost to get there, how much you should charge to get there and cover your costs. If you start out charging rates that are wildly different from where you are trying to be, you are going to have a tougher time working your way up in prices because every time you raise your prices, you are going to burn your natural market referral base. That is really difficult to deal with. If you spend extra time learning the craft before you sell, you can start out in a higher market and not have to deal with that. But it is all about patience, practice and not going after the low hanging fruit so you can get the really great fruit that could be there.

So do I shoot for free? Absolutely, but I don't shoot things for free that I want to sell. I shoot things for free that I want to shoot. Like yesterday, I took some Fuji film, my medium format camera and my pregnant wife out and shot maternity. I don't want to shoot maternity and these images may never see the light of day. But it made me happy to shoot. I did it solely for myself. Not to get better. Not to market myself. Not for any reason other than I wanted to. I think doing things for yourself in photography is a great way to avoid burnout and keep a love of photography. Because if you are going to run a strong, profitable business, you need to be running a business that happens to be in photography, not a photography business.

You can absolutely shoot people and practice with people without burning your target market. You just need to be creative.

[JDPhotoGuy]

Originally Posted by rjx

I see it as putting more money into my pocket, in the future, sooner than later.

The more frequently I’m able to practice lighting, interacting with clients, directing models, camera settings, camera angles, any unexpected issues that pop up before, during or after a session, retouching, etc, the more I will learn than if I charged $ and had less opportunities.

The people willing to give their time for images (that might not even be any good), or people looking to pay as little as possible probably never would have paid the photographers that do it for a living anyways.


The model / client can sign a legal document beforehand, regardless if zero to minimal money is exchanged.

All this is discussed before any potential session occurs. Any contract or document can be signed beforehand.


So you admit there is value in working for free. You just publically wrote there is value in everything we do.



So a photographer shouldn’t offer their services to a charity, organization, or cause he / she believe in? So a photographer should always charge their spouse, parents, etc?

I completely disagree with you. But we’re entitled to our opinions and we don’t have to agree.

For this to be a little more relevant, as a new photographer, working for free will help develop “expertise” so hopefully sooner than later, they’ll be able to provide valuable services and make a living from it.

If you don't have a wife/girlfriend/significant other/bored sister you can practice on with no expectations of handing them pictures - and remember the OP is about Senior Sessions - then you really should put the camera away and start living. Again, not saying go buy your first Rebel on the way to your first session.

I really don't see how you expect to do anything more than get warmed up in a typical length senior session. No time to experiment... Hell you shouldn't experiment whether the session is for free or not. Clients are just that whether they're paying you or not. To experiment, to me, is to act in a manner not consistent with what I would want from any service provider. For example, I don't want a cheap electrician to come in my home and start saying "let's see what touching these two wires does..." How you expect that to ever do anything but lose you business is beyond me.

The argument that people wouldn't/couldn't have paid anyway is hogswallow. I can't afford a chauffeur to drive me around... I don't expect teenagers wanting to learn how to drive to come pick my butt up and drive me around in their car all day long. I can't afford it, I don't get it. Period. You can't afford/don't want to pay a photographer? Then do without. No one owes you. Has the sense of entitlement finally permeated society to the point that people think they should give stuff away for free? If so, I should have just begged for camera gear until someone felt I deserved it as much as me.

The rest of that up there is either a moot point or just plain silliness. Which is okay too. I take the silliness as a complement and affirmation that my logic is sound enough that one has to resort to comic relief to even have a retort.

Originally Posted by rjx

That's an ignorant statement. And if you're talking about internships in professions other than photography, then I take offense to that on a personal level.

For many professions you can only learn so much from a school, out of a book, on a website, or in a controlled environment with a mannequin. But it takes time to develop the knowledge and skill needed to flourish and for many professions, the best way to learn that is on the job. Yes, it's nice to get paid. But I don't understand how anyone in a very technical field could expect to get paid, or charge a fee when their skill set and their quality of performance is minimal.

Oh I am talking about all internships. Many professions? I'd say all of them. The only way to ever learn ANY trade is on the job. Are you the absolute best at what you do for a living? Of course not. No one is. Well.. One person technically is for each field, but you get my point. If I were to wait until I thought my skills weren't minimal, I'd never charge a dime my whole life.

You can't help but contribute to the task at hand even if it's your first day. You can screw up things and cost the company money, but that's part of the risk of doing business and why there's a hiring process. Big risk, big reward... I don't care what I do for a business, unless I'm standing in the corner with my thumbs up my butt, I am making the company money and deserve to be compensated for it.

[JDPhotoGuy]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

I think everyone SHOULD shoot for free. But I do not think it is a good business decision to pollute your target market with two things:
1. Work under your target quality
2. Prices under your target range

Now there will be a degree to which you need to work up in your prices, but you should have a set target before you ever go into business. Set up a business plan that is intelligently thought out. Figure out where you want to be, what it will cost to get there, how much you should charge to get there and cover your costs. If you start out charging rates that are wildly different from where you are trying to be, you are going to have a tougher time working your way up in prices because every time you raise your prices, you are going to burn your natural market referral base. That is really difficult to deal with. If you spend extra time learning the craft before you sell, you can start out in a higher market and not have to deal with that. But it is all about patience, practice and not going after the low hanging fruit so you can get the really great fruit that could be there.

So do I shoot for free? Absolutely, but I don't shoot things for free that I want to sell. I shoot things for free that I want to shoot. Like yesterday, I took some Fuji film, my medium format camera and my pregnant wife out and shot maternity. I don't want to shoot maternity and these images may never see the light of day. But it made me happy to shoot. I did it solely for myself. Not to get better. Not to market myself. Not for any reason other than I wanted to. I think doing things for yourself in photography is a great way to avoid burnout and keep a love of photography. Because if you are going to run a strong, profitable business, you need to be running a business that happens to be in photography, not a photography business.

You can absolutely shoot people and practice with people without burning your target market. You just need to be creative.

If I could fit that in my signature, I would.

+1000

[banquetbear]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

The only reason people don't find themself in that situation is because they put the cart before the horse and try to sell their work before they know what the **** they are doing.

...which is exactly what I said. You didn't wake up and become an established photographer. You had to work to get it.

I picked up photography again because I enjoyed it. I had a corporate sales job I didn't particularly like and wanted something to fun to do on the weekends. So I bought a camera, a couple lenses and a season pass to the zoo. And I taught myself to get better.

Again, exactly my point. You needed to get better and found a way to practice to improve your skill. You chose to go to the zoo. That is not the only choice.

There is NO REASON that anyone here can't do what I did.

Of course not. And I make no claim to that effect. However you asked the question: "Do you necessarily need a portfolio to book a client? " For you the answer is obviously no. For the hundreds of thousands of other photographers out there, the answer is probably yes.

The difference is, I didn't try to sell my work before I knew what I was doing.

Again, this really isn't addressing the point. Shooting for free is not the same thing as trying to sell your work before you know what you are doing. They are different things.

I shot for myself, put pics on my blog (that was a devoted to writing, not photography and not a business blog) and things happened. But I turned down paid shoots that were family shoots, portrait shoots and weddings when I wasn't good enough. I gave wedding referrals to friends.

Good for you: and I really mean that. But so what? Are you claiming that someone who decides to do a photoshoot with a couple of friends to practice some skills or techniques is destroying his business and doomed for failure?

Again, people put the cart before the horse. They want to sell work that isn't professional. Do it the right way. Learn the craft, then make it a profession. If you go book clients or give shoots away to people in your natural client, you are more likely to burn yourself. Tell them that you aren't doing that work yet, perfect it and then come in high.

"More likely" is not the same as "never." The "never shoot for free" mantra is a pretty loud one, as exemplified by this post. No one is arguing that you shouldn't learn the craft and then make it a profession: in fact my post is pretty clear in that this is what you absolutely should be doing. For many people with different personality types to you, they can't perfect something until they have had an opportunity to practice it. And for them practicing on a mannequin or on a gorrila really isn't the same thing.

I really don't because I teach them all the time.

People are different and learn in different ways. Those that choose to go to a professional and learn in a one on one or a workshop situation will learn differently to someone who finds it better to learn off the internet and practice on friends. If you are dealing exclusively with the former, you don't know what it is like to be the latter.

It is all about getting the technical things down. And when you look at the sharing section, you see so many of the new photographers don't have a clue about the technical side. If exposure and white balance are a reaction, you can spend your brain power on the things that really need it. I absolutely agree that a foam head isn't going to help you wrangle a toddler. But a toddler won't necessarily let you figure out the nuances of lighting because they are moving so much, either. A little angle changes a lot.

You are missing a whole lot of things that you have learnt after years of experience in the real world. Booking and shooting a photoshoot is an exercise in logistics: everything from getting the paperwork right to what to do if it is raining to gear check lists to invoicing to taxes. Getting the lighting right is the easy part of doing business and probably one of the easiest things to teach certain people. I spent fifteen years in retail and hospitality and for me this stuff is easy. For others, not so. For some people, getting out there and doing it is how they learn, and doing a couple of photoshoots for free is the easiest and fastest way to do it.

I disagree. If you know how to control your lighting, then you can focus your energy better on controlling your shoot.

Of course!

I think everyone SHOULD shoot for free. But I do not think it is a good business decision to pollute your target market with two things:
1. Work under your target quality
2. Prices under your target range

Friends and family who don't value photography and will never spend money on photography are not in your target market but photographing them to improve your skills or try a new technique is a sensible thing for some people to do.

Now there will be a degree to which you need to work up in your prices, but you should have a set target before you ever go into business. Set up a business plan that is intelligently thought out. Figure out where you want to be, what it will cost to get there, how much you should charge to get there and cover your costs. If you start out charging rates that are wildly different from where you are trying to be, you are going to have a tougher time working your way up in prices because every time you raise your prices, you are going to burn your natural market referral base. That is really difficult to deal with. If you spend extra time learning the craft before you sell, you can start out in a higher market and not have to deal with that. But it is all about patience, practice and not going after the low hanging fruit so you can get the really great fruit that could be there.

You see, you've said absolutely the same thing that I said in my final paragraph. We are essentially in agreement.

So do I shoot for free? Absolutely, but I don't shoot things for free that I want to sell. I shoot things for free that I want to shoot. Like yesterday, I took some Fuji film, my medium format camera and my pregnant wife out and shot maternity. I don't want to shoot maternity and these images may never see the light of day. But it made me happy to shoot. I did it solely for myself. Not to get better. Not to market myself. Not for any reason other than I wanted to. I think doing things for yourself in photography is a great way to avoid burnout and keep a love of photography. Because if you are going to run a strong, profitable business, you need to be running a business that happens to be in photography, not a photography business.

You can absolutely shoot people and practice with people without burning your target market. You just need to be creative.

As I said up above: if you are shooting people that aren't in your target market, then you aren't burning it up. All I'm saying is that "don't shoot for free" is a silly mantra that gets repeated all the time in these forums and it isn't always true.

[Thomas Campbell]

...which is exactly what I said. You didn't wake up and become an established photographer. You had to work to get it.

And what I am saying is that you shouldn't just charge because you can charge. Become great at it first.

Again, exactly my point. You needed to get better and found a way to practice to improve your skill. You chose to go to the zoo. That is not the only choice.

It is not the only choice, but it is a smart choice. I didn't do it with the idea that I would become a wedding photographer one day. I just liked animals. I did it for me. But I went there with the intention of becoming a great photographer. Not to become a business. But to learn photography.

Of course not. And I make no claim to that effect. However you asked the question: "Do you necessarily need a portfolio to book a client? " For you the answer is obviously no. For the hundreds of thousands of other photographers out there, the answer is probably yes.

No. The answer for anyone is no. If you are a good - not just competent - photographer, you can book just about any type of photoshoot imaginable. I get requests CONSTANTLY for all kinds of work that I don't do and don't want to do. And I pass them off to people that are good at that and they return the favor.

I've got friends that only shoot pro sports. That's 100% of their income and the only thing they do. They get 5-6 wedding inquiries a year, even though they have no interest in shooting weddings. They don't have a portfolio in it, but they are good.

You don't need a portfolio in something to succeed. But you need to be good. And to do that, you need to learn what you are doing before you start charging. That is applicable to everyone.

Good for you: and I really mean that. But so what? Are you claiming that someone who decides to do a photoshoot with a couple of friends to practice some skills or techniques is destroying his business and doomed for failure?

I don't think that you are necessarily doomed for failure, but if you are just learning out and you are charging people while not really knowing what you are doing, you are hurting yourself.

For many people with different personality types to you, they can't perfect something until they have had an opportunity to practice it. And for them practicing on a mannequin or on a gorrila really isn't the same thing.

No. Absolutely everyone can learn the craft before they start charging. There really is no excuse not to. The only reason people don't is that they are too impatient to see the bigger picture and we are in the fast food culture of "Now!"

if you are shooting people that aren't in your target market, then you aren't burning it up.

But that is where your natural market comes into play. Your natural market are the people around you. Friends, family, etc. If they are not your target market, they are very likely friends with your target market. But they are your natural market. They will be your loudest advocates. And if you burn them with crappy work that their paid for, they will not sing your praises to your target market - their friends. If you burn them by wasting their time with a photoshoot that kinda sucks, you are burning your natural market because they won't sing your praises. These are two separate but very interrelated things. And they are very important things to focus on and be deliberate about.

All I'm saying is that "don't shoot for free" is a silly mantra that gets repeated all the time in these forums and it isn't always true.

And I am going to say that it is important to shoot for free. Shoot what you want for free. But if you are a wedding photographer, don't shoot weddings for free. If you are a newborn photographer, don't shoot newborns for free. You devalue your brand. I shoot for free all the time. But I am sure not going to do a wedding for free.

[ChunkyDA]

Wow, This is without a doubt the most internally quoted thread I have ever scrolled through!
If you want a free massage, go to the local massage school where they teach apprentice students the art of massage. No way anybody would pay for a massage from someone who was learning. Want a free haircut, go to the barber school where they are learning to cut and style hair. No way anyone would pay to have their hair all jacked up by a newb. Want a free tattoo? get one done by someone just starting out, surely they wont make a permanent mistake on your lower back. OP is in High School. OP, You need to learn somewhere and you should not charge a fee unless you can guarantee satisfactory results.

[banquetbear]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

And what I am saying is that you shouldn't just charge because you can charge. Become great at it first.

...who in the thread is arguing differently?

It is not the only choice, but it is a smart choice. I didn't do it with the idea that I would become a wedding photographer one day. I just liked animals. I did it for me. But I went there with the intention of becoming a great photographer. Not to become a business. But to learn photography.

And some people do other things like shoot friends and families with the intention of becoming great photographers. I'm not entirely sure why this is an issue.

No. The answer for anyone is no. If you are a good - not just competent - photographer, you can book just about any type of photoshoot imaginable. I get requests CONSTANTLY for all kinds of work that I don't do and don't want to do. And I pass them off to people that are good at that and they return the favor.

Lets be brutally honest here: if you want to be a wedding photographer not having a wedding portfolio would be a spectacularly dumb move on your part. Do non-wedding photographers get wedding inquiries all the time? Sure! How many of them convert to wedding bookings?

I've got friends that only shoot pro sports. That's 100% of their income and the only thing they do. They get 5-6 wedding inquiries a year, even though they have no interest in shooting weddings. They don't have a portfolio in it, but they are good.

...and? Are you claiming that you can run a successful wedding business on five to six inquiries (not bookings ) a year? Do these pro-sports shooters have samples of their sports work available to show potential clients what they can do?

If you want to shoot weddings as a business proving you can shoot a wedding is certainly a pre-requisite. I doubt there are many wedding photographers out there surviving on only five to six inquiries a year.

You don't need a portfolio in something to succeed. But you need to be good. And to do that, you need to learn what you are doing before you start charging. That is applicable to everyone.

Of course you don't need a portfolio to succeed, but just because you booked a wedding without having a wedding portfolio doesn't mean that its a prudent business step for everyone to follow. if we were to take your advice to its absurd level, you seem to be saying "you need to be a good established photographer to get work, but don't shoot anything that you want to shoot for money until you are good enough to actually shoot it. In the meantime, to get some practice, go shoot some gorillas." Your advice is full of contradictions.

I don't think that you are necessarily doomed for failure, but if you are just learning out and you are charging people while not really knowing what you are doing, you are hurting yourself.

But they wouldn't be charging, because in the scenario of mine in which you quoted they would be shooting for free, not charging money.

No. Absolutely everyone can learn the craft before they start charging. There really is no excuse not to. The only reason people don't is that they are too impatient to see the bigger picture and we are in the fast food culture of "Now!"

Are you having a different discussion? I'm talking about shooting for free. You are talking about people charging money. If you want to go off in tangents, why are you replying to my posts?

But that is where your natural market comes into play. Your natural market are the people around you. Friends, family, etc. If they are not your target market, they are very likely friends with your target market. But they are your natural market. They will be your loudest advocates. And if you burn them with crappy work that their paid for, they will not sing your praises to your target market - their friends. If you burn them by wasting their time with a photoshoot that kinda sucks, you are burning your natural market because they won't sing your praises. These are two separate but very interrelated things. And they are very important things to focus on and be deliberate about.

Right. Again: I'm talking about shooting for free. You are talking about "burning them with crappy work that they paid for." These are completely different things.

I'll go back to the scenario that I posted before and which seemed to confuse you. Someone decides to do a photoshoot with a couple of friends to practice some skills or techniques and to maybe add some images to his portfolio. What objective harm has he done to his business?

And I am going to say that it is important to shoot for free. Shoot what you want for free. But if you are a wedding photographer, don't shoot weddings for free. If you are a newborn photographer, don't shoot newborns for free. You devalue your brand. I shoot for free all the time. But I am sure not going to do a wedding for free.

And that is your choice, and it is a valid one. Personally I would never book a portrait photographer who had never shot a portrait, nor a lawyer who had never spent a day in court or a surgeon who had never worked in a hospital before.

[Thomas Campbell]

Lets be brutally honest here: if you want to be a wedding photographer not having a wedding portfolio would be a spectacularly dumb move on your part. Do non-wedding photographers get wedding inquiries all the time? Sure! How many of them convert to wedding bookings?

All wedding photographers had a point in time where they did not have a wedding portfolio. It is easy to convert a non-wedding portfolio into a wedding portfolio if you are good. If you start shooting weddings and never build a portfolio, then yes, that is stupid.

Are you claiming that you can run a successful wedding business on five to six inquiries (not bookings ) a year?

No, I am saying it is easy to get inquiries and book weddings without a portfolio if you are a good photographer and reputable person. And if that person wanted to start up on weddings, those are enough inquiries to get going.

Of course you don't need a portfolio to succeed, but just because you booked a wedding without having a wedding portfolio doesn't mean that its a prudent business step for everyone to follow.

It is a prudent way to start. In fact, everyone starts that way.

Someone decides to do a photoshoot with a couple of friends to practice some skills or techniques and to maybe add some images to his portfolio. What objective harm has he done to his business?

It absolutely depends on the shoot, the people and your ultimate goal. Shooting your target or natural market for free can absolutely hurt your business as many people have said multiple times in this thread.
If you want to shoot seniors, so you call your buddy that is a senior and say "Hey, I want to shoot seniors, but I need to practice, will you model?" what you have said is:
1. I suck
2. I need to practice
3. I can't afford a model

This person is in your target market. So you just told someone that you suck that is in your target market. Is it not obvious how that is bad?

Personally I would never book a portrait photographer who had never shot a portrait, nor a lawyer who had never spent a day in court or a surgeon who had never worked in a hospital before.

Terrible analogy. You can't become a lawyer without studying law and you can't become a surgeon without going through medical school and residency.

[banquetbear]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

All wedding photographers had a point in time where they did not have a wedding portfolio. It is easy to convert a non-wedding portfolio into a wedding portfolio if you are good. If you start shooting weddings and never build a portfolio, then yes, that is stupid.

...so you agree with me? Good.

No, I am saying it is easy to get inquiries and book weddings without a portfolio if you are a good photographer and reputable person. And if that person wanted to start up on weddings, those are enough inquiries to get going.

Its also easy to get inquries and book weddings without a portfolio and be a terrible photographer. Getting bookings and inquiries is meaningless in the short term: and even the most terrible of photographers can get consistent work if they are good at marketing and selling themselves.

It is a prudent way to start. In fact, everyone starts that way.

Everyone? Why are you constantly speaking in absolutes? You think its prudent to start charging people in wedding photography without any experience shooting weddings? What if they had never been to a wedding before? What if they didn't know what a wedding was?

It absolutely depends on the shoot, the people and your ultimate goal. Shooting your target or natural market for free can absolutely hurt your business as many people have said multiple times in this thread.

People have said it plenty of times in the thread. It doesn't mean they are right.

If you want to shoot seniors, so you call your buddy that is a senior and say "Hey, I want to shoot seniors, but I need to practice, will you model?" what you have said is:
1. I suck
2. I need to practice
3. I can't afford a model

Nope: number one isn't a given, in fact its pretty insulting that you've even thrown it in there. You say that people shoot shoot for fun and shoot what they love, but if they enjoy shooting people if they intend to make money from it they can't shoot them. As I said before your advice is full of contradictions.

This person is in your target market. So you just told someone that you suck that is in your target market. Is it not obvious how that is bad?

Except you didn't tell them you suck: this is your invention. What you said to them was "Hey, I want to shoot seniors, but I need to practice, will you model?"

Terrible analogy. You can't become a lawyer without studying law and you can't become a surgeon without going through medical school and residency.

I wouldn't book a conference co-ordinator who had never worked a conference before. I would never book a wedding co-ordinator who had never been to a wedding. I would never eat at a Steak Restaurant where the Chef had never cooked Steak before. I would never take relationship advice from someone who had never had a girlfriend. I wouldn't recommend Buffy the Vampire Slayer to someone who hated Firefly. And I wouldn't hire a portrait photographer who had never shot a portrait before, because hey, it doesn't matter how good someone is at their specialization, look at what just happened to poor Joe Klamar!

[Thomas Campbell]

Everyone? Why are you constantly speaking in absolutes?

Because it is true. Every single wedding photographer at one time had no wedding portfolio. Absolutely, positively 100% absolutely.

You think its prudent to start charging people in wedding photography without any experience shooting weddings?

In every situation, no. In some situations, without question.

Nope: number one isn't a given, in fact its pretty insulting that you've even thrown it in there. You say that people shoot shoot for fun and shoot what they love, but if they enjoy shooting people if they intend to make money from it they can't shoot them. As I said before your advice is full of contradictions.

Sorry you took it that way, but it is probably true. You've said lots of things on this thread that aren't accurate, I don't hold it against you. You've also said a lot of things I agree with.

To practice taking portraits for what will be an eventual senior photography business, do you have to take pictures of a person in your target market of 16-19 year old high school students?

[banquetbear]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

Because it is true. Every single wedding photographer at one time had no wedding portfolio. Absolutely, positively 100% absolutely.

...well if you would stop talking in absolutes then there wouldn't be any confusion. if you didn't mean what you said then you shouldn't have said it.

In every situation, no. In some situations, without question.

Prudent means wise or judicious. A response of "without question" implies otherwise.

To practice taking portraits for what will be an eventual senior photography business, do you have to take pictures of a person in your target market of 16-19 year old high school students?

Well I wouldn't go to the zoo and take pictures of Gorrila's.

[JDPhotoGuy]

Originally Posted by banquetbear

Well I wouldn't go to the zoo and take pictures of Gorrila's.

No, but if you could take one home and get them to pose for you in locations and ways you would likely be shooting a high school senior, then how in the world isn't that legitimately practicing your craft?

There has been a lot of arguing for the sake of arguing here. The "don't practice on your target market" has been taken as "don't practice" this whole thread even though it's been pointed out multiple times that it's so not what anyone is saying.

[mike_311]

Originally Posted by ChunkyDA

OP is in High School. OP, You need to learn somewhere and you should not charge a fee unless you can guarantee satisfactory results.

that was my initial point. i am actually at the moment giving away free sessions, however i charge a lot for print to make up my time. my clients know my print prices going in and i have gotten lots of sessions booked in the next couple of weeks because there is absolutely ZERO risk to them, if they don't like my pictures, they don't buy them, that however hasn't been the case, as all have been thrilled and purchased quite a few. so no not only am i getting paid, I'm getting experience on REAL subjects, building a nice portfolio plus they are spreading my name around.

i am marketing it as a promotion for this month only and then my prices go back to normal, so if someone tells me i didn't charge so and so, i can say that promotion is over, and then its up to me if they still want to book a session at my normal rate.

[banquetbear]

Originally Posted by JDPhotoGuy

No, but if you could take one home and get them to pose for you in locations and ways you would likely be shooting a high school senior, then how in the world isn't that legitimately practicing your craft?

...no, I really don't think that you will find a zoo that lets you take a gorilla home. But if you find one that does, please feel free to let us know!

[SOK]

Originally Posted by banquetbear

Should people shoot for free? The answer of course is "it depends." There should never be any absolutes and the "NEVER SHOOT FOR FREE!!!" mantra does become tiresome after a while. The actual answer is that you need to analyse your business, look at yourself and examine your strengths and weaknesses, look at the market place and see where you want to fit in, develop a business plan on how to get to where you want to be and then to go from there. For some people, this might mean shooting people for free while they develop the skills that they need to overcome those shortcomings. For other people they won't need to do that.

This is the most sensible paragraph in the whole thread.