sorry but I am not fully grasping it....

[ceriltheblade]

I am not fully grapsing the limitations of the 600 series flashes on the pre-2012 bodies if used as a single flash on camera or off camera (on ETTL cord) vs the 580 ex ii.

I am not going to be purchasing a new body this upcoming round of body upgrades (and maybe not the next one either), but I am trying to see if the 600 is basically equal or slightly "better" than the 580 ex ii in this limited situation.

the difference in price between the two in my neck of woods is the equivalent of 250 USD approx.

thanks for helping

[pyrojim]

Originally Posted by ceriltheblade

I am not fully grapsing the limitations of the 600 series flashes on the pre-2012 bodies if used as a single flash on camera or off camera (on ETTL cord) vs the 580 ex ii.

I am not going to be purchasing a new body this upcoming round of body upgrades (and maybe not the next one either), but I am trying to see if the 600 is basically equal or slightly "better" than the 580 ex ii in this limited situation.

the difference in price between the two in my neck of woods is the equivalent of 250 USD approx.

thanks for helping

How would you define better? and a difference of 250 USD is typically a nontrivial amount of money.


If it is a trivial sum of money for you, I suspect you could just buy a 5D mark 3 and settle any truly pressing concerns.

[ceriltheblade]

Sorry....you are right.
I think I understand that the flash has the same guide number along the entire zom range as the the 580 exii - just that it has an extended range (that is better for me)
what I am not sure about is the various syncing times vs the sync times I would get on the 580 ex ii
and if there are other considerations that I am missing
in regards to the $250 - it is a consideration - but it is affordable. I am considering only a single unit and replacing my 430 exii (slated for my brother)

[drvnbysound]

The biggest thing that I am aware of that the 2012 bodies will offer is the new 'Groups' functionality. This new feature allows you to segment various Speedlites into different groups... What does that mean? Think event shooting for a second... You can setup 2 600EX-RTs in manual mode (think of lighting a room, where you want the room to be lit the same for each shot), additionally you can have another 600EX-RT setup in ETTL on camera - so as you walk around the room it remains lit the same (from the manual flashes), and your ETTL light adjusts accordingly to the various subjects you may shoot. You are able to have up to 5 groups - so you can have 1 manual group set at 1/4 power, another manual group at 1/2 power, and an ETTL group...

Unless I'm totally missing the boat here, this functionality is not possible with the 580EXII's, unless you are combining ETTL on-camera with a manual triggering system connected to your PC sync port. However, even in this case, you cannot adjust the power of the room lighting from the back of the camera - you would need walk over to and adjust the power manually from the flashes.

More info here: http://pixsylated.com/blog/canon-600...t-impressions/

[ceriltheblade]

drvnbysound - thanks for the link - i have read that before - and i think it is yet again another thing that confuses me. the official statements that come out say that the various sync times including the HSS times take a one stop hit on pre-2012 cameras, but in his blog he clearly uses non2012 cameras (60D and 5d2) and says he syncs up to 1/8000'' on HSS without a hitch, though he adds his own caveats.

The groupings for me at this stage is not a consideration as I tend to use the speedlight relatively like a simpleton. If I use OCF, I use an OCF ETTL cord relatively close to the body of the camera - and not dispersed around a scene/room/party, etc. but my real worry is that the sync times will be more like what canon says (one stop off) and not like what the blogs say - all the way to the hilt - with my 7d.

[oldvultureface]

Originally Posted by drvnbysound

Unless I'm totally missing the boat here, this functionality is not possible with the 580EXII's, unless you are combining ETTL on-camera with a manual triggering system connected to your PC sync port.

You can, within Canon's wireless system, force individual 430's and 580's (as slaves) into manual power mode. When in E-TTL slave mode, press and hold the mode button until M flashes on the display. Power can then be set manually.

As you stated, however, changes must be made on each unit, i.e., not controlled from the camera's menu. The master on the camera can still function in E-TTL mode while the slaves operate manually.

[drvnbysound]

Originally Posted by ceriltheblade

drvnbysound - thanks for the link - i have read that before - and i think it is yet again another thing that confuses me. the official statements that come out say that the various sync times including the HSS times take a one stop hit on pre-2012 cameras, but in his blog he clearly uses non2012 cameras (60D and 5d2) and says he syncs up to 1/8000'' on HSS without a hitch, though he adds his own caveats.

The groupings for me at this stage is not a consideration as I tend to use the speedlight relatively like a simpleton. If I use OCF, I use an OCF ETTL cord relatively close to the body of the camera - and not dispersed around a scene/room/party, etc. but my real worry is that the sync times will be more like what canon says (one stop off) and not like what the blogs say - all the way to the hilt - with my 7d.

Manuals and actual experience vary all the time. I personally think this was a CYA on Canon's part to notate that there may be an issue... maybe not. My assumption is that the sync speed issue may only occur with certain bodies, certain firmware versions, etc. and rather than try to define every one of those possibilities it was easier to say that any pre-2012 body may have a 1-stop loss in sync speed. Again, just my thoughts on how they handled it - doesn't mean there is any truth to that...

[drvnbysound]

Originally Posted by oldvultureface

You can, within Canon's wireless system, force individual 430's and 580's (as slaves) into manual power mode. When in E-TTL slave mode, press and hold the mode button until M flashes on the display. Power can then be set manually.

As you stated, however, changes must be made on each unit, i.e., not controlled from the camera's menu. The master on the camera can still function in E-TTL mode while the slaves operate manually.

Yes, I understand that you can use the optical wireless system of the 580EXII and set the slaves to manual (and doing so you can also adjust flash power from the back of the camera). However, I don't believe with this legacy system that you can mix manual and ETTL 'groups' of flashes - but I've never tried it. I thought that whatever setting your master was set to, the slaves would follow; e.g. master on ETTL results in Slaves in ETTL, master in manual results in slaves in manual...

[timnosenzo]

Originally Posted by drvnbysound

The biggest thing that I am aware of that the 2012 bodies will offer is the new 'Groups' functionality. This new feature allows you to segment various Speedlites into different groups... What does that mean? Think event shooting for a second... You can setup 2 600EX-RTs in manual mode (think of lighting a room, where you want the room to be lit the same for each shot), additionally you can have another 600EX-RT setup in ETTL on camera - so as you walk around the room it remains lit the same (from the manual flashes), and your ETTL light adjusts accordingly to the various subjects you may shoot. You are able to have up to 5 groups - so you can have 1 manual group set at 1/4 power, another manual group at 1/2 power, and an ETTL group...

Unless I'm totally missing the boat here, this functionality is not possible with the 580EXII's, unless you are combining ETTL on-camera with a manual triggering system connected to your PC sync port. However, even in this case, you cannot adjust the power of the room lighting from the back of the camera - you would need walk over to and adjust the power manually from the flashes.

More info here: http://pixsylated.com/blog/canon-600...t-impressions/

This ^^

I set up 3 600's off camera at wedding receptions in individual groups and I can control each from my 5D3 + 600EX - I have some in manual, some in ETTL, I can turn some off if I want, it's awesome. All of that goes away if I try to do it on my 7D.

[agv8or]

Originally Posted by ceriltheblade

I am not fully grapsing the limitations of the 600 series flashes on the pre-2012 bodies if used as a single flash on camera or off camera (on ETTL cord) vs the 580 ex ii.

I am not going to be purchasing a new body this upcoming round of body upgrades (and maybe not the next one either), but I am trying to see if the 600 is basically equal or slightly "better" than the 580 ex ii in this limited situation.

the difference in price between the two in my neck of woods is the equivalent of 250 USD approx.

thanks for helping

The limitations, with pre 2012 cameras, is talked about in the "Radio Transmission Wireless Flash Shooting" section but there is no mention in normal "On Camera" flash operation that I can find in the manual. The 600EX-RT performs the same as does the 580EX II in the "Off" wireless configuration, while attached to either the hotshoe or to an ETTL cord, when using a pre 2012 camera. The 600EX-RT is easier to navigate through the functions and custom functions than the 580EX, it has an expanded zoom range with 135mm and 200mm options and you can now access the External metering flash mode without having to go through customs functions to do so. If these are important to you then the 600EX is slightly better in the "On Camera" flash operations than the 580EX II.

If you are looking at just using the flash "On Camera" or attached to an ETTL cord then there would be no use in spending the extra money for the 600EX unless at some point in the future you are looking at adding other flashes and venturing into wireless flash operations. It is in the "Wireless" flash operations that the 600EX-RT, which is capable of "Wireless RT", is not just "slightly" better but much, much better than the 580EX II.

[oldvultureface]

Originally Posted by drvnbysound

I don't believe with this legacy system that you can mix manual and ETTL 'groups' of flashes - but I've never tried it.

Do try it. Set your on-camera flash to E-TTL master. Set an off-camera flash to E-TTL slave, any group. Set another to E-TTL slave and then hold the mode button 'till M flashes on the display. Set the power on that unit as you would normally in manual mode. Try FEL. Both the on-camera flash and the slave set to E-TTL will preflash. The one in manual mode will remain silent. Take a picture. All three will fire, the E-TTL group will fire with output determined by the preflash. The 'free-agent rogue' will fire at the power you set.

Note: HSS is also available to the free-agent flash if that's useful to you.