Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: the end of medium format superiority

[jdizzle]

Originally Posted by Tareq

Well, again of those pointless comparisons blogs, i just commented on Getdpi about that comparison thread, I had H3DII-39 and tested it against 1Ds MarkIII, i loved Hassy a lot over 35mm DSLr, then got H4D-60, i use Canon only for sports and few outdoor shots.

It's getting to the point where Digi MF is loosing it's niche. Why do you think Hassy dropped their prices?

[Tareq]

Originally Posted by jdizzle

It's getting to the point where Digi MF is loosing it's niche. Why do you think Hassy dropped their prices?

Loosing its niche is a healthy thing, even it happens between Canon and Nikon and Sony and so on.

About Hassy dropping prices, well, i don't think it is only because of 35mm DSLR, but also Phase One and Leaf have their strong competition.

[David Arbogast]

That other MF competition has been there for years right? Yet the price drop seemed to coincide with the release of the D800/E. I think that's why it's assumed that the D800/E helped trigger the price drop.

But, I guess the question is: has the D800/E started creating any sort of serious migration from MF?

[bjyoder]

Originally Posted by David Arbogast

But, I guess the question is: has the D800/E started creating any sort of serious migration from MF?

I'd love to see stats on that, though I'm sure they'll be hard to come by.

My guess: Most of the guys using MF have the means to keep using MF, especially with some price drops. From what I've seen, the D800/E is still a step (more?) behind a good MF back. The people using MF are looking to eke out that last little bit of imaging quality. If they have the means to stay with MF, and MF gives better results, why would they choose something of lesser quality for their work? (Though, the D800/E could definitely be a decent backup/on-location camera for that crowd).

[pyrojim]

Originally Posted by Tareq

Loosing its niche is a healthy thing, even it happens between Canon and Nikon and Sony and so on.

About Hassy dropping prices, well, i don't think it is only because of 35mm DSLR, but also Phase One and Leaf have their strong competition.

The entry leaf Aptus is $8000.... If you already have a body... It's really hard to compete against that.

[Shadowblade]

Don't forget, a lot of the technologies which have made the D800E competitive with some MF bodies would also benefit MF if they were transferred to MF digital backs. A full-frame 645 (56x42mm) CMOS sensor could very well have 15-16 stops of DR (using DXOMark's reference ranges), high ISO capability, 100-120MP and fully-functional live view. Same goes with a panoramic 24x72mm CMOS sensor.

But, with the D800E being the new benchmark, and future 35mm-format sensors improving on it, these benefits will likely only be relevant to 1% of photographers, and affordable to just 1% of these. MF manufacturers would do well to concentrate on the $10k-$15k end of the market, rather than $40k digital backs, and provide a greater variety of lenses, particularly at the wider end. After all, if Hartblei can stick a Canon TS-E 17L onto a MF digital back, while still retaining tilt/shift capabilities, then so can Zeiss, Schneider or Rodenstock. At the moment, you can shoot wider on a single 35mm frame than on a single MF frame, which is a big disincentive to go MF. But, with a proliferation of $10-$15k CMOS bodies and better UWA capability, a lot of people who would otherwise have bought a 35mm system would be tempted to go for MF instead. These are people who shoot primarily at the UWA-to-medium-telephoto range, who don't shoot action and need the flexibility of camera and lens movements - something that MF does much better than 35mm formats.

[jdizzle]

Originally Posted by Shadowblade

Don't forget, a lot of the technologies which have made the D800E competitive with some MF bodies would also benefit MF if they were transferred to MF digital backs. A full-frame 645 (56x42mm) CMOS sensor could very well have 15-16 stops of DR (using DXOMark's reference ranges), high ISO capability, 100-120MP and fully-functional live view. Same goes with a panoramic 24x72mm CMOS sensor.

But, with the D800E being the new benchmark, and future 35mm-format sensors improving on it, these benefits will likely only be relevant to 1% of photographers, and affordable to just 1% of these. MF manufacturers would do well to concentrate on the $10k-$15k end of the market, rather than $40k digital backs, and provide a greater variety of lenses, particularly at the wider end. After all, if Hartblei can stick a Canon TS-E 17L onto a MF digital back, while still retaining tilt/shift capabilities, then so can Zeiss, Schneider or Rodenstock. At the moment, you can shoot wider on a single 35mm frame than on a single MF frame, which is a big disincentive to go MF. But, with a proliferation of $10-$15k CMOS bodies and better UWA capability, a lot of people who would otherwise have bought a 35mm system would be tempted to go for MF instead. These are people who shoot primarily at the UWA-to-medium-telephoto range, who don't shoot action and need the flexibility of camera and lens movements - something that MF does much better than 35mm formats.

Until that day comes where I can have at least 40 MP at a reasonable price( not including Pentax's 645D), I'll stick to 35mm for now.

[jdizzle]

Originally Posted by pyrojim

The entry leaf Aptus is $8000.... If you already have a body... It's really hard to compete against that.

How many MPs is the $8k back?

[jetcode]

Originally Posted by danpass

I only read the first part but here is an off-the-cuff MF shot, simple auto tune in LR, full shot then 100% light eye, then 100% dark eye to show shadows and this was just a Phase One P45 (which I believe are CCD sensors):

I had a Hassy V 120 macro mounted on a d800e and tried to get a shot of the owner but the light was really hot (outdoor high noon) and I couldn't get the right shutter speed at f/11 hand held. I need to setup a session with flash and a similar face in order to produce a reasonable comparison. I also shot too close. Magnification matters as well. I was between 1:2 and 1:3. When I get the opportunity I will post the results.

[pyrojim]

Originally Posted by jdizzle

How many MPs is the $8k back?

22 megapixels on a 36x48mm chip.

Remember megapixel count is only a small part of the story

[Tareq]

Funny that Leaf has also that back of 33mp [Aptus II 33] and 40mp [Aptus II 40] under same price = $14,990, and Leaf Credo 40mp = $19,495
Hasselblad H4D-31 = $11,995

[andrikos]

Either way you slice it, it's quite obvious that the MF "slice of the pie" will be getting smaller and smaller...
It's already a niche among niches, expect it to become even more "nichy"

[Maverique]

News just in: medium format still kicks small format's ass, no matter if it's Nikon, Canon, Canikon...

[jdizzle]

Originally Posted by Maverique

News just in: medium format still kicks small format's ass, no matter if it's Nikon, Canon, Canikon...

We all know that. Unless we're printing large billboards, it's impractical to most.

[pyrojim]

Originally Posted by jdizzle

We all know that. Unless we're printing large billboards, it's impractical to most.

medium format DIGITAL is impractical for most(thread context)




Film on the other hand....is wicked fun! 6x7 negatives are just plain sexy! (out of thread context)

The look and feel of 6x7 negatives is pretty special. Im really glad I picked up a medium format camera... also makes my 1Ds feel light