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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Motorsports Talk 
Thread started 01 Apr 2013 (Monday) 19:39
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Dealing with "exclusive" photogs

 
twistys4me
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Apr 30, 2013 20:28 |  #16

veritasimagerynw wrote in post #15882890 (external link)
What's really sad is that many of these "exclusive" shooters' images pretty much suck. They shoot and dump and end up with shots where the rider's head is partly cut off, the bike isn't in frame. that are out of focus, etc. and then force the "clients" to buy full packages. It's like the photogs get lazy because they don't have any competition, and the riders/drivers are stuck with what they offer.

"if you're complaining about a photographer, why not link his work?"


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veritasimagerynw
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Apr 30, 2013 23:16 |  #17

drewl wrote in post #15884439 (external link)
even if they're good, the purpose is totally different. they're there to sell the participants photos of themselves, so I see pretty much nothing but close-in shots of individual cars/bikes, taken at conservative shutter speeds for a high keeper ratio.

never gonna see the super long pans or a wide shot of whole field coming over a crest with epic clouds or wild artistic stuff if he's the only guy allowed to shoot trackside.

I guess that's the difference. They're more about quantity, not necessarily quality.


Kevin
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veritasimagerynw
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Apr 30, 2013 23:27 |  #18

twistys4me wrote in post #15884861 (external link)
"if you're complaining about a photographer, why not link his work?"

Not sure why you put that in quotes.

This isn't about a specific photographer, but several different ones (and even a type of motorsports photographer). There just seems to be a genre of motorsports photographers that prefer to just dump a ton of images onto their site without any thought for quality.

And by the way, Jason, I notice that you shoot more for the artistic rather than having a ton of pictures all over your website. Your shots of Motofit from last year at The Ridge are more along the lines of what I prefer to present. And, Motofit is one of the organizations that has exclusive photogs that reduce my access to the track. But, that said, I have a good working relationship with those photographers and really like the stuff they produce.


Kevin
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PNW_PointnShoot
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May 01, 2013 09:08 as a reply to  @ post 15882890 |  #19

Something to remember, as it was taught to me long ago... there are different styles, different wants, and different client needs.

Sounds like if you're shooting a track for the owner, he'd want a few "capturing, artistic, different angle type photos, but if you're shooting 50 cars, the photog you're referring too, likely needs to produce more than 300 images per trackday, like I'm seeing on your website, if he wants to be successful. He/she also probably does not have the time/client need to edit each photo, like you do with your work. I agree and do notice some photographers shoot at extreme shutter speeds here at tracks in the northwest, and some do not. At the end of the day, if they're buying these particular photos, and everyone is happy, does it matter what we think, as we pixel peep and critique? N.o.p.e.

Remember that before they earned their contract.... they were shooting from the sideline as well. I know I've been there. Hell I've been asked to leave an event as well. Back in 2006 :oops: Whatever you may be shooting, regardless of the subject... motorsports, HS sports, wedding, remember that when there's a contract, they could be paying to be there, theres a trade of sorts, they're required to be there, rain or shine, 40 degrees-110 degrees... you cant just show up as you please, and you're expected to make the clients of the provider happy. So if they arent doing this, they wouldnt have the contract to begin with.

When another photographer shows up to shoot from the outside of the venue, in your case, a car or motorcycle lapping day, remember that the event is like a farmer with his crops.

Farmer "A" has 10 rows of corn, when another guy comes in and shoots from the sides, its no big deal. Farmer "B" takes a few ears of corn, every's happy, but now Farmer B wants to harvest a few rows.... he now has only 8 rows to make money on. 2 more farmers show up and now Each farmer, needing 8 rows of corn to survive, all are making money off 4 rows of corn and everyone is broke as a joke since they're living off the same land. Now everyone's broke, but hey, at least they have options from a bunch of gwc's! Farmer "A" never went to Farmer "B's" house and took his corn. So in essense to a lot of photogs I know, its a respect thing. Nothing personal. Thats at least how I take it. Surely everyone here understands the difference between a guy "showing up and shooting from the sidelines, and wanting full out permission to full access... And I've gotten contracts and I've lost out on contract bids as well.

Just something to consider.




  
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veritasimagerynw
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May 01, 2013 09:28 |  #20

I do get what you're saying. I know that when shooting a large race event there can be hundreds of riders/drivers to shoot. They may be uploading thousands of images (that all look about the same), I am usually only uploading in the hundreds. I guess that I come from a different direction to photography. I approach my photography, even the commercial landscape photography, from an artistic point of view. I see it as the difference between a "snapshot" and a "photograph". A "snapshot" records an event. But a "photograph" captures something deeper, more emotional. These guys that "shoot and dump" may be capturing the event, but are they giving the clients something to be proud of? I look at it this way, would people be willing to have the same type of shooting done at a wedding? You can machine gun the thing and "get the shots", but are they really going to be pictures that people will be proud of and put on the wall? I guess whatever works for them.

I also see this as the reason I have had a lot of riders and drivers specifically ask if I will be at an event to shoot. I can't count the number of times I've had someone say to me "That's the first picture I've gotten of my car/bike where it looks like it's actually moving. Usually they just look like they're sitting still." What seems to have happened is that the clients are so used to what is being offered, that they don't know that "better" (In my opinion, more artistic) pictures are possible. Which is also why I an not really "competing" with the "exclusive" guys since we are offering completely different types of pictures.

You're right, though, whatever works. All in all, it's just my opinion. Maybe I'm just too "snotty nosed" about photography. I'm willing to accept that.

In the end, I will always respect the rights to the track that the "exclusive" guys have and will be there shooting when they aren't.


Kevin
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Flores
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May 01, 2013 10:07 |  #21

ahh. you've run into a businessman, not a photographer.

so why not argue from a business perspective and not an artistic one?

please explain why someone who has gone out of their way to lock in business for themselves should simply allow you to wander into his/her gig and lure customers away?

after all, the track is just the track. they rent the venue out. In wedding photographer terms, your the guy that has a deal with the venue, but no one hires a venue expecting a photographer, they bring their own. I give freebies to the track to promote my own work, so that they will refer me to folks renting the track as a potential 'upsale'. sometimes they have their own guy, sometimes my phone rings.

_Always_ contact the event organizer before you bother to roll out to the track.

why are't you turning end customer interest to your advantage? "sorry, the event your going to won't let me shoot. You could always talk to the organizer and recommend they try me instead, since their current photographer likes exclusivity' . Event organizers are in business too, they listen to their customers.

your story sounds like an object lesson in active listening.




  
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veritasimagerynw
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May 01, 2013 10:23 |  #22

Flores wrote in post #15886510 (external link)
ahh. you've run into a businessman, not a photographer.

so why not argue from a business perspective and not an artistic one?

please explain why someone who has gone out of their way to lock in business for themselves should simply allow you to wander into his/her gig and lure customers away?

after all, the track is just the track. they rent the venue out. In wedding photographer terms, your the guy that has a deal with the venue, but no one hires a venue expecting a photographer, they bring their own. I give freebies to the track to promote my own work, so that they will refer me to folks renting the track as a potential 'upsale'. sometimes they have their own guy, sometimes my phone rings.

_Always_ contact the event organizer before you bother to roll out to the track.

why are't you turning end customer interest to your advantage? "sorry, the event your going to won't let me shoot. You could always talk to the organizer and recommend they try me instead, since their current photographer likes exclusivity' . Event organizers are in business too, they listen to their customers.

your story sounds like an object lesson in active listening.

The biggest thing that started this whole thread was an organization that hadn't informed the track of their "exclusive" photographer, so when I came in and shot (for the track), then the photographer got upset and complained to the organizer, who then complained to the track. I, then, have made it my business to contact those organizations and photographers to check on the "exclusivity" they carry, primarily to avoid stepping on toes. My rant is that when this happens, especially in small venues and such, it seems that the photographers get "lazy" in their quality because the clients have no other options. It's simply a rant, and a frustration. And I am of the opinion that competition breeds excellence. I went with a "non-exclusionary" deal with the track for that reason. I don't want to force others out, and if someone is producing better pictures than me I had better step up my game.


Kevin
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Flores
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May 01, 2013 12:16 |  #23

:thumbs up:

no problem. I've seen that happen to photogs who have long term deals... they wonder why their sales drop... :)




  
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Picturesports
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May 06, 2013 02:30 |  #24

Wow this is an interesting subject with +/- on both sides.

Exclusive deals - Hummm is that so. Do they have protected rights on the series in the same way as F1 does ?? To shoot GP3 (one of the F1 support series) I need to buy a license to capture images for commercial use.

Same at several of the tracks. Shooting for media use is covered under fredom of the press rules (public interest) but shoot ing for pure commercial gain (selling to a competitor) isn't covered under media access.

If you have an agreement with the track and in renting the circuit the track signs a clause that prevents you from realising the benefits and advantages given to you under your contract, the lawyers would have a field day.

What a brilliant quandary - Sorry I don't have an answer apart from, assuring you that this will not be the last time someone gets "in your face" about something.

I had one recently where a guy called me unprofessional for telling him I had photos of him and then expecting him to actually pay for them if he wanted them. There was no suggestion that he had to buy them only if he wanted a copy then it was going to cost him (the price of a take away coffee for a 6x4)

The world is well wierd :-)


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Flores
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May 06, 2013 07:25 |  #25

you nailed it in one, picturesports. a guy with an exclusive agreement with the event does have the right to run off non-media photographers.

and it's one of the reasons 'the track' almost never has a contracted photographer that sells images to the drivers/teams. the track photographer (if he is retained by the track) is shooting media FOR USE BY THE TRACK. I've done some great pics for the track and my own portfolio, at events I wasn't permitted to offer pictures for sale to the drivers.

When I was approached by a few of them (drivers), I told them they would need to see the official photographer, and that the guy has my contact info if they see any images they are interested in. I don't care who I sell to, but he has an exclusive contract to sell to you guys, so he can buy from me and sell to you if you want one of my images <shrug> if that seems like it sucks, talk to the event organizer.

I've also come to some arrangements with guys that have negotiated exclusivity to work with them on a free lance basis, where (assuming my work is good enough for them) I will turn over a copy of my work for them to re-sell, and take a cut of the action. (you can never have enough angles or shots at a track day)

I also enjoyed chatting with a young man, just getting started in track photographer, who told me he had a 'reputation' for his awesome panning shots... shooting with his first 'L' lens on his T2I.

I watched him shoot for a while, knowing that from where he was standing, he was going to be cropping VERY heavily to create the images he was telling me about, then handed him my 'spare' sigma 50-500, took him to a couple of good spots, and showed him what panning shots looked like with a 300 IS L + 2x TC...

He was shaking his head as I zoomed ALL the way in on some of my pans, and deleted them (not sharp enough to read the badges, I can't use those for posters)...

I hope he made some money that weekend! But all I was really doing was paying it forward, because we all have to start somewhere, and I was lucky enough to have someone point me in the right direction when I was getting interested... (a guy who sold/printed onsite, and had exclusivity with the event)




  
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flyinlow007
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May 06, 2013 11:36 |  #26

Flores wrote in post #15902281 (external link)
I also enjoyed chatting with a young man, just getting started in track photographer, who told me he had a 'reputation' for his awesome panning shots... shooting with his first 'L' lens on his T2I.

I watched him shoot for a while, knowing that from where he was standing, he was going to be cropping VERY heavily to create the images he was telling me about, then handed him my 'spare' sigma 50-500, took him to a couple of good spots, and showed him what panning shots looked like with a 300 IS L + 2x TC...

He was shaking his head as I zoomed ALL the way in on some of my pans, and deleted them (not sharp enough to read the badges, I can't use those for posters)...

I hope he made some money that weekend! But all I was really doing was paying it forward, because we all have to start somewhere, and I was lucky enough to have someone point me in the right direction when I was getting interested... (a guy who sold/printed onsite, and had exclusivity with the event)

Great post. Although I am very far from being a pro, I have learned a few things the last couple of years and have now shared that with friends who have purchased cameras and want to get better at taking photos. I have been able to get media creds for a couple of races and have taken time to talk to people "outside the fence" when they have had questions. I also talk to some of those folks and actually asked them if I'm in their way, if they can see, etc. If you treat people with respect, you get it back.


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Bosscat
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May 07, 2013 09:34 |  #27

I have run into the exclusive track of series tog and many of them stink, have attitudes like they are God, and I have heard they have bad mouthed me for the way I shoot.

I now let people suffer those parked car/bike pole growing out of their heads, trash can in the frame shots. If a track or series doesn't care enough to offer their customers value then they are getting what they deserve.

I walked away and am a much happier person, and get great chuckles when I see what people have to choose from, and then watch one of these guys have to do year end file sales at bargain basement prices to drum up money. He has set the bar low and has to keep it low.

Ask yourself if it worth all the hassle


Your camera is alot smarter than the "M" Zealots would have you believe

  
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Dealing with "exclusive" photogs
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