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Thread started 16 Nov 2013 (Saturday) 12:09
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eBay False listing -No refund

 
Methodical
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Nov 17, 2013 17:11 |  #16

duane0524 wrote in post #16457990external link
The fee charged to the seller and is charged to them unless you use pay via paypal gift and then it is charged to you if you use a credit card. You should never use gift payment, with or without the fee.

Yeah, I always use credit, except just recently when I had a balance (small one) and paypal required me to use it instead of my CC, but I purchased a lens foot from Really Right Stuff though, so no biggy. It's easy to fight credit than trying to get back cash. I don't leave a cash balance in my paypal account and always use a CC, except for the above purchase.

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Clemson656
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Nov 18, 2013 13:55 |  #17

tuttlejr wrote in post #16458065external link
Ebay always favors the seller in most cases.

Most eBay sellers would say otherwise and I tend to agree that eBay sides with buyers most of the time.


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Clemson656
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Nov 18, 2013 14:20 |  #18

Regarding this case with the original poster, I feel for you. At the same time, I do see why eBay sided with the seller.

First thing first, eBay is NOT an expert in photography gear and so they don't know how many shutter count would be defined as "like new". In other words, if I have a camera that is in absolutely like new condition, but the shutter count is high, can't I say it's like new? I know, I know, many of you would argue that seller should have included such details in the listing. And I don't disagree with that.

Personally, I think this is similar to an L lens that has, say, UR date code that looks just like new.

I think the only way you could have had a higher chance of winning the case was that you had a letter from Canon saying that it's near the end of the camera's life.

That said, I know that this is not you'd like to hear, but I think this should be how you handle an eBay case from now on. Ask a lot of questions before buying, especially if the seller appears to miss any information you need to know.

Cheers.


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Arte ­ Automobilistica
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Nov 18, 2013 17:11 |  #19

Clemson656 wrote in post #16461431external link
I think the only way you could have had a higher chance of winning the case was that you had a letter from Canon saying that it's near the end of the camera's life.:)

That said, I know that this is not you'd like to hear, but I think this should be how you handle an eBay case from now on. Ask a lot of questions before buying, especially if the seller appears to miss any information you need to know.

I agree Seller beware! The seller was unambiguous in her listing and I relied on what she said. I am going to appeal the eBay decision. I feel agrieved as they didn't do anything for me when a previous non paying buyer cost me over £800, but I digress. I amgoing to ask them to confirm that they will back me if I use the same listing. Of course I won't but it might pressure them to find in my favour. Returning the camera won't put the seller in any worse position. It's the only fair solution.

What shutter count would you expect an EOS kiss x4 In immaculate condition, hardly used, Like new to have? 5000?

Thanks for the credit card advice and my credit card company are investigating my case.


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KirkS518
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Nov 18, 2013 19:31 |  #20

I think part of the problem is that the software needed to determine shutter count is not something the general public is aware of.

Think of it this way, and this is purely hypothetical, but I think it makes sense. You're selling a phone. It looks great. No scratches, dents, etc., but you have no idea how many phone calls were made on it. It looks pretty much pristine. You list is as 'Like New'. Some buyer who is well versed in phone technology buys it, and knows of a third-party web-based software that can determine how many calls and texts the phone was used for. It's made 1 million calls & texts combined. The buyer is outraged that the phone has been used extensively. It still works. It still looks great. But because he has an awareness of this program, he has determined that the phone is not 'Like New'. Is it the sellers fault? Were they supposed to go through their phone bills and tally up the usage?

So I ask you this - does the camera work? Does it look like the picture(s) in the listing? Does it look like it was barely used, and well-cared for? How else should ebay have decided your claim?

If you had never heard of EOSCount, would you be happy with the camera? You're grievance is only a grievance because you have additional information that the general public isn't aware of being available.

And I'll ask again - do you have a link to the original auction (see my request at post #4).


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smacatl
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Nov 18, 2013 21:14 |  #21

I have read this thread with interest - here is my story:

I am currently looking for a 1DMIV, and due to the lack of listings here in the sale forum, I have expanded my search to eBay.

My observation for the 1DMIV is that there seems to be two widely disparaging listing styles; the first is complete and lists everything that is included down to the bubble wrap and includes the shutter count and even a screen shot of the shutter count reading. The second listing style is vague, overly generic, offers a wide estimated range of the shutter count ("35K to 50K" for example), and the product shots lack detail and clarity that you would expect from a photographer who owns a 1DMIV.

For comparison sake, I have submitted questions and detailed instructions of how to get the shutter count to all listings over the past 4 weeks who have not included shutter information, or who have quoted "estimated" the shutter usage.

The responses have been disappointing. There seems to be a reason that the requested information was left off the original ad! With only 1 exception, the response (when I got one) has ranged from "I cant make it work", "I don't have a USB cable", I can't figure out how to connect the camera to the computer", or my personal favorite "I don't have a PC!"

My take away: There are plenty of seller's here and on eBay who are willing to take the extra steps to give me a full, accurate, and verifiable description of the product they are selling - as a result, I'm not sending my hard earned money to any seller who can't provide me reassurances that what I think I am getting is what will show up on my doorstep.

I am also thinking that by having the seller provide documentation of the shutter count (either in the ad or via eBay message), my case for a complaint against misrepresentation would be stronger should I have any problems. Unlike the OP where "hardly used, like new" is somewhat vague.

Good luck to the OP - hope it works out.


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Arte ­ Automobilistica
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Nov 19, 2013 03:34 as a reply to KirkS518's post |  #22

KirkS518 wrote in post #16external link
So I ask you this - does the camera work? Does it look like the picture(s) in the listing? Does it look like it was barely used, and well-cared for? How else should ebay have decided your claim?

If you had never heard of EOSCount, would you be happy with the camera? You're grievance is only a grievance because you have additional information that the general public isn't aware of being available.

It works but after extensive testing I sometimes can't increase the shutter speed past 1/200 in S mode and the screen goes dead every so often. I should have tested it fully on receipt, but after the shutter test I switched it off never to use again. The camera is the same one as in the listing pictures. Compared to my 8k photo x4 (which I have owned from new) It does not look barely used. I would not have bought it if I had seen it first. It looks like it was used by a studio photographer: high live view count, severe marks on USB port and tripod mount. As to whether the seller knew or not is largely irrelevant. The fact is she gave a warrantee as to the condition of the camera. She could have said nothing but she used specific words which I relied on. Why won't she (and eBay) allow a return. That would be the fairest option. She is in no worse position and if she believes her own story can sell the camera using the same listing.
http://www.ebay.co.uk ...Docks&hash=item27d9​b2d0cfexternal link (sorry for not including it earlier).

I still have the option to appeal the eBay decision. I should ask eBay if they would uphold my sale if I use the exact same listing. Not that I would but it may "pressure" them to find in my favour.

It will be interesting to see what Visa says. If that doesn't work then I will have to sell it for spares and repair and suck up the loss (lesson time).

I agree smacati why wouldn't you give a shutter count as it can only assist your sale?

No more eBay purchases of over £50 from now on and ask more questions!


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Clemson656
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Nov 19, 2013 07:33 |  #23

Arte Automobilistica wrote in post #16461890external link
What shutter count would you expect an EOS kiss x4 In immaculate condition, hardly used, Like new to have? 5000?

Thanks for the credit card advice and my credit card company are investigating my case.

For me and I believe for most acknowledged photographers on this board, one would expect a low shutter count. But I personally understand that cosmetic condition has nothing to do with shutter count. Yes, potentially, if one uses a camera for a long period of time and so it has high shutter count, the camera likely won't be in like new condition.

KirkS518 wrote in post #16462171external link
I think part of the problem is that the software needed to determine shutter count is not something the general public is aware of.

Think of it this way, and this is purely hypothetical, but I think it makes sense. You're selling a phone. It looks great. No scratches, dents, etc., but you have no idea how many phone calls were made on it. It looks pretty much pristine. You list is as 'Like New'. Some buyer who is well versed in phone technology buys it, and knows of a third-party web-based software that can determine how many calls and texts the phone was used for. It's made 1 million calls & texts combined. The buyer is outraged that the phone has been used extensively. It still works. It still looks great. But because he has an awareness of this program, he has determined that the phone is not 'Like New'. Is it the sellers fault? Were they supposed to go through their phone bills and tally up the usage?

So I ask you this - does the camera work? Does it look like the picture(s) in the listing? Does it look like it was barely used, and well-cared for? How else should ebay have decided your claim?

If you had never heard of EOSCount, would you be happy with the camera? You're grievance is only a grievance because you have additional information that the general public isn't aware of being available.

And I'll ask again - do you have a link to the original auction (see my request at post #4).

This is a similar thought to mine about why eBay sided with the seller.

I recall a couple of times that I bought a couple of camera accordingly. Both times, I didn't ask for shutter count or seller didn't have access or know how to do it. Sellers described it accordingly and so it's my risk to buy it.

Arte Automobilistica wrote in post #16462989external link
It works but after extensive testing I sometimes can't increase the shutter speed past 1/200 in S mode and the screen goes dead every so often. I should have tested it fully on receipt, but after the shutter test I switched it off never to use again. The camera is the same one as in the listing pictures. Compared to my 8k photo x4 (which I have owned from new) It does not look barely used. I would not have bought it if I had seen it first. It looks like it was used by a studio photographer: high live view count, severe marks on USB port and tripod mount. As to whether the seller knew or not is largely irrelevant. The fact is she gave a warrantee as to the condition of the camera. She could have said nothing but she used specific words which I relied on. Why won't she (and eBay) allow a return. That would be the fairest option. She is in no worse position and if she believes her own story can sell the camera using the same listing.
http://www.ebay.co.uk ...Docks&hash=item27d9​b2d0cfexternal link (sorry for not including it earlier).

I still have the option to appeal the eBay decision. I should ask eBay if they would uphold my sale if I use the exact same listing. Not that I would but it may "pressure" them to find in my favour.

It will be interesting to see what Visa says. If that doesn't work then I will have to sell it for spares and repair and suck up the loss (lesson time).

I agree smacati why wouldn't you give a shutter count as it can only assist your sale?

No more eBay purchases of over £50 from now on and ask more questions!

First thing first, by looking at the pictures in that listing, it looks nothing close to being "immaculate" to me. It looks to be in bad shape if you ask me, especially the lens. (It could be bad pictures.) Along with the very short description and she sells mostly apparel, that would have raised a red flag on how accurate this seller described her item. But that's me.

That said, "like new" is a judgment call, I guess. (Personally, I don't see that as being like new.) Had you have included how the camera has issues in the first place, you might have had a better shot of winning the case. Also, based on my personal experiences, if you ask a lot of questions before buying/bidding, especially when seller doesn't put enough info in the description, you'll have a much much higher chance of winning a case if something goes wrong. I think that's what goes against you in this case.

I'm not siding with eBay or the seller and I feel your frustration. What I've learned from using eBay for over 10 years is no eBay member is fully protected. Their policy is to protect themselves and someone, some members, will be screwed in the process. Understanding how they work is the best way to protect yourself.

Cheers.


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Arte ­ Automobilistica
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Nov 19, 2013 08:46 |  #24

Clemson656 wrote in post #16463263external link
I'm not siding with eBay or the seller and I feel your frustration. What I've learned from using eBay for over 10 years is no eBay member is fully protected. Their policy is to protect themselves and someone, some members, will be screwed in the process. Understanding how they work is the best way to protect yourself.

I've learnt my lesson. Thanks for the input.


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KirkS518
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Nov 19, 2013 08:47 |  #25

Arte Automobilistica wrote in post #16462989external link
It works but after extensive testing I sometimes can't increase the shutter speed past 1/200 in S mode and the screen goes dead every so often. I should have tested it fully on receipt, but after the shutter test I switched it off never to use again. The camera is the same one as in the listing pictures. Compared to my 8k photo x4 (which I have owned from new) It does not look barely used. I would not have bought it if I had seen it first. It looks like it was used by a studio photographer: high live view count, severe marks on USB port and tripod mount. As to whether the seller knew or not is largely irrelevant. The fact is she gave a warrantee as to the condition of the camera. She could have said nothing but she used specific words which I relied on. Why won't she (and eBay) allow a return. That would be the fairest option. She is in no worse position and if she believes her own story can sell the camera using the same listing.
http://www.ebay.co.uk ...Docks&hash=item27d9​b2d0cfexternal link (sorry for not including it earlier).

I still have the option to appeal the eBay decision. I should ask eBay if they would uphold my sale if I use the exact same listing. Not that I would but it may "pressure" them to find in my favour.

It will be interesting to see what Visa says. If that doesn't work then I will have to sell it for spares and repair and suck up the loss (lesson time).

I agree smacati why wouldn't you give a shutter count as it can only assist your sale?

No more eBay purchases of over £50 from now on and ask more questions!

If the camera is no longer functioning as it should, then you should definitely appeal. And be sure to mention that to Visa in your dispute.

With that said, I'll preface this with the fact that I'm a Power Seller on eBay, and have been an active buyer and seller sine Jan 1999.

In my opinion, you were looking to get away cheap. You paid between £75 and £100 less then the average 550D body only on ebay UK, plus you got a lens. And BTW, not a single listing for a 550D/X4 that i could find had a shutter count.

I think your shutter count argument should be dropped. Even though it is like the odometer in a car, it is not something the owner/user/seller has access to through the camera using normal means. You need to focus on the fact that it is not fully functional.

The auction clearly shows a nice scratch on the camera. That tells me it is not, and was not, in like new condition. Like new condition is an opinion, not a fact, and should always be read with a grain of salt. I would either have not bought this camera, or bought it with the knowledge that it may not be in like new condition, but that it is/should be working.

I see no warranty about the camera at all, and it clearly states no return or refund.

The photos suck.

The camera comes with nothing but the body, lens, and charger. No caps, no strap, no box, no manual, no disk, etc. These should have been clues that the camera may not have been as good as you hoped. They probably lost all the other stuff, or didn't care enough about the camera to not lose the caps and other things. A nice big red flag.

I can totally see why eBay found in favor of the seller. You're complaining of something that wasn't disclosed, but is something that is never disclosed (known) in similar auctions, but you bought it below the market value for a similar item. You took a chance to save some money. Cars with dents sell for less then cars with no dents.

I do feel for you, and I hope you are able to get this sorted out, but I think you have an uphill battle. Ebay is a buyer beware venue. The buyer protections are there, but you have to remember when you are buying used equipment, it is used. An educated buyer is the best buyer.


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John
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Nov 20, 2013 14:59 |  #26

Good luck with the appeal.

If there are any comments you can send in with your appeal, I would put something like "If this does not work, I will have no other option but to dispute this charge with my credit card issuer."


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Clemson656
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Nov 20, 2013 16:13 |  #27

Just out of curiosity, can you really appeal a closed eBay case? I've always thought that their decision is final, unless, of course, you have a court order. Have their policies changed?


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John
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Nov 20, 2013 16:15 |  #28

Clemson656 wrote in post #16467393external link
Just out of curiosity, can you really appeal a closed eBay case? I've always thought that their decision is final, unless, of course, you have a court order. Have their policies changed?

Not sure. I know what you mean though. The last time I was in a paypal dispute, I was the "seller" and Paypal didn't give me any choice. With that said, this was way before eBay bought PayPal and before all the "buyer/seller protection policies" that ebay has.


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Arte ­ Automobilistica
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Nov 21, 2013 03:26 |  #29

John wrote in post #16467228 (external link)
Good luck with the appeal.
If there are any comments you can send in with your appeal, I would put something like "If this does not work, I will have no other option but to dispute this charge with my credit card issuer."

Thanks I will. I'm also going to suggest that the camera is inspected by a Canon expert and costs and decision follow the result.

Apparently you can appeal. I'll see what happens when I do.

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Clemson656
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Nov 21, 2013 10:01 |  #30

Good to know that you can appeal.


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