Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Read More.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography
Thread started 21 Aug 2014 (Thursday) 21:45
Prev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as registered member)

Another request for insect photos, no pay offered

 
OhLook
Spiderwoman
OhLook's Avatar
15,183 posts
Gallery: 64 photos
Joined Dec 2012
California: SF Bay Area
Aug 21, 2014 21:45 |  #1

For the second time, an academic contacted me at BugGuide, wanting to use some of my photos posted there. This professor is writing a regional field guide to insects, to be published by a local chapter (near him, not near me) of a well-known nonprofit with a conservationist mission. He's supplying many of the photos himself and asking photographers to donate images for what's missing. He says that because the organization is nonprofit, the book is being produced on a shoestring and the organization "cannot pay photographers." I'd get a credit line.

To my mind, "cannot pay photographers" translates to "Someone decided not to include anything for photos in the budget." For a field guide, yet! Presumably the organization will pay for printing and binding, just not for illustrations. I suppose the prof will get something for his writing, although he didn't say.

When this happened before, I ended up agreeing to allow use of images in exchange for a donation to BugGuide, which was not offered originally, and a copy of the book, which was. That book was clearly a commercial project; it was to be produced by a trade publisher. Two things are different this time. (1) Although this book is also a commercial project (it'll be sold), the publisher is a conservationist nonprofit, and all profits will go toward its activities. So there's a "good cause" factor. I could consider my work a donation to the cause. (2) The images wanted are better. Some of them are good enough that someone someday might be willing to pay for them. I'm attaching the best one as a sample.

The prof says I'd retain the copyrights. It may not be that simple. If the product were text instead of images, allowing publication in his book would mean using up the first world print rights. Does it work the same way with photos? That is, would licensing some photos for this use reduce their value in the future?

HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.

PRONOUN ADVISORY: OhLook is a she. | A FEW CORRECT SPELLINGS FOR YOU: lens, aperture, amateur, hobbyist, per se, raccoon, whoa, more so (2 wds.) | IMAGE EDITING OK

LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as registered member)
PhotosGuy
Moderator
PhotosGuy's Avatar
74,826 posts
Gallery: 7 photos
Joined Feb 2004
Middle of Michigan
Aug 21, 2014 23:46 |  #2

The first person I'd talk to is Carolyn E Wright.
http://www.photoattorn​ey.com/external link


FrankC - 20D, RAW, Manual everything...
Classic Carz, Racing, Air Show, Flowers.
Find the light... A few Car Lighting Tips, and MOVE YOUR FEET!
Have you thought about making your own book? // Need an exposure crutch?
New Image Size Limits: Image must not exceed 1280 pixels on any side.

LOG IN TO REPLY
SuffolkGal
Senior Member
437 posts
Joined Jun 2012
Aug 22, 2014 05:17 |  #3
banned

Maybe the project doesn't pay for pens and paper and electricity and office space and computers and ....

Photography is expensive to do, you have bills to pay.




LOG IN TO REPLY
Dan ­ Marchant
Goldmember
Dan Marchant's Avatar
Joined Oct 2011
Where I'm from is unimportant, it's where I'm going that counts.
Aug 22, 2014 06:05 |  #4

OhLook wrote in post #17110522external link
If the product were text instead of images, allowing publication in his book would mean using up the first world print rights. Does it work the same way with photos? That is, would licensing some photos for this use reduce their value in the future?

Yes. You can't exclusively license the image for publication elsewhere (exclusive being more valuable than non-exclusive) once they have been licensed for publication in this book.


Dan Marchant
Website/blog: danmarchant.com (external link)
Instagram: @dan_marchant (external link)
Gear Canon 5DIII + Fuji X-T2 + lenses + a plastic widget I found in the camera box.

LOG IN TO REPLY
FerozeK
Member
FerozeK's Avatar
239 posts
Joined Apr 2012
JHB, South Africa
Aug 22, 2014 06:13 |  #5

In your country are charitable donations a tax write off? Ask the them to issue you with a certificate for the value of the photo and submit it with your tax returns. A tax deduction in my mind is as good as getting paid!


Canon EOS 5D | Pentax K10 | Canon EF 24-70mm f/4L IS USM, EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM, EF 16-35 f/4 L IS USM | Canon Speedlite 600EX-RT

LOG IN TO REPLY
vengence
Goldmember
2,097 posts
Joined Mar 2013
Aug 22, 2014 09:13 |  #6

Dan Marchant wrote in post #17110952external link
Yes. You can't exclusively license the image for publication elsewhere (exclusive being more valuable than non-exclusive) once they have been licensed for publication in this book.

This.

Now, that being said, if you've only ever had 2 requests total for all your images, I wouldn't be concerned with devaluing the image. I may have gotten the wrong idea, but that's how I read your OP. The question is if you believe your photo is worth more than a photocredit in a book OR if you believe in his non-profit enough to donate the value to him. This is really a personal question.




LOG IN TO REPLY
OhLook
THREAD ­ STARTER
Spiderwoman
OhLook's Avatar
15,183 posts
Gallery: 64 photos
Joined Dec 2012
California: SF Bay Area
Aug 22, 2014 10:45 |  #7

PhotosGuy wrote in post #17110659external link
The first person I'd talk to is Carolyn E Wright.
http://www.photoattorn​ey.com/external link

Thanks for responding, but I wouldn't want to pay for legal advice unless my potential losses were much larger than they might be in this situation.

SuffolkGal wrote in post #17110898external link
Photography is expensive to do, you have bills to pay.

Professional photography is expensive to do. Taking these photos cost me some time and effort but no money to speak of.

Dan Marchant wrote in post #17110952external link
Yes. You can't exclusively license the image for publication elsewhere (exclusive being more valuable than non-exclusive) once they have been licensed for publication in this book.

That's most of what I wanted to know, thanks. Does a first nonexclusive license lower the value of any future nonexclusive licenses as well?

FerozeK wrote in post #17110955external link
In your country are charitable donations a tax write off?

They are. However, you can't take them unless you have a large total of deductible expenses in the same year. Most years, we don't qualify.

vengence wrote in post #17111211external link
. . . if you've only ever had 2 requests total for all your images, I wouldn't be concerned with devaluing the image.

I wasn't clear enough. This is the second request for use in a book. Images have been requested and used in other media. Sawflies and weevils are quite the niche market, and I haven't solicited any offers.

The question is if you believe your photo is worth more than a photocredit in a book OR if you believe in his non-profit enough to donate the value to him. This is really a personal question.

Yes, indeed, that's why it's hard.

I believe any photo that's good enough to use in a book is worth more than a credit. I would like to convey that idea to people who generate books without insulting them.


PRONOUN ADVISORY: OhLook is a she. | A FEW CORRECT SPELLINGS FOR YOU: lens, aperture, amateur, hobbyist, per se, raccoon, whoa, more so (2 wds.) | IMAGE EDITING OK

LOG IN TO REPLY
Alveric
Goldmember
Alveric's Avatar
Joined Jan 2011
Canada
Aug 22, 2014 10:50 |  #8

OhLook wrote in post #17111373external link
I believe any photo that's good enough to use in a book is worth more than a credit. I would like to convey that idea to people who generate books without insulting them.

Well, you could just tell him that.


'The success of the second-rate is deplorable in itself; but it is more deplorable in that it very often obscures the genuine masterpiece. If the crowd runs after the false, it must neglect the true.' —Arthur Machen
Why 'The Histogram' Sux (external link)

LOG IN TO REPLY
vengence
Goldmember
2,097 posts
Joined Mar 2013
Aug 22, 2014 13:38 |  #9

OhLook wrote in post #17111373external link
I wasn't clear enough. This is the second request for use in a book. Images have been requested and used in other media. Sawflies and weevils are quite the niche market, and I haven't solicited any offers.

Sorry I misunderstood. If you're repeatedly getting published and requests, regardless of the end use, I wouldn't make a habit of giving things away.

I believe any photo that's good enough to use in a book is worth more than a credit. I would like to convey that idea to people who generate books without insulting them.

I think that's exactly what you need to tell them. There's a market rate for photos, and they should pay it like anyone else.




LOG IN TO REPLY
OhLook
THREAD ­ STARTER
Spiderwoman
OhLook's Avatar
15,183 posts
Gallery: 64 photos
Joined Dec 2012
California: SF Bay Area
Aug 22, 2014 14:24 |  #10

me wrote in post #17111373external link
I wasn't clear enough. This is the second request for use in a book.

I wasn't accurate enough, either. This is the third request for use in a book. I forgot about one of the books.

Besides those and the entomological databases, there are unauthorized uses. Photobucket used to display a weekly report of downloads of one's images. (If they still do, I haven't found it in their current format.) My ladybugs were turning up in places like Facebook that I don't use. After that, I removed all my image tags.

Alveric wrote in post #17111382external link
Well, you could just tell him that.

vengence wrote in post #17111729external link
I think that's exactly what you need to tell them. There's a market rate for photos, and they should pay it like anyone else.

Well, yeah. Unfortunately, my experience so far suggests that the market rate is zero. That's what everyone else pays.

Why not ask the market rates? One reason: those rates are based on professional-quality photos. Bug photos don't have to be as good technically as other kinds of photos that might be published. What's important is often only that the specimen be identifiable. You should see some of the images on websites of agricultural extension offices. Small and blurry.

It's hard to know how selfishly or unselfishly to act. People engage in amateur science because they enjoy the activity and they like contributing to real science.

It's also hard to be tactful. I can't politely say "You know, people who provide content for a commercial work usually get something for it."


PRONOUN ADVISORY: OhLook is a she. | A FEW CORRECT SPELLINGS FOR YOU: lens, aperture, amateur, hobbyist, per se, raccoon, whoa, more so (2 wds.) | IMAGE EDITING OK

LOG IN TO REPLY
Chris
Goldmember
Chris's Avatar
Joined Oct 2006
Algonquin, IL
Aug 22, 2014 14:26 |  #11

OhLook wrote in post #17111373external link
"I believe any photo that's good enough to use in a book is worth more than a credit." I would like to convey that idea to people who generate books without insulting them.

I also think this is the perfect answer to their request. It isn't insulting and states that you find value in your work and believe you should be compensated for it.


Chris

70D | 24-70 2.8 | 400 5.6 | 580 EXII | 2X Yongnuo 622C |

LOG IN TO REPLY
Alveric
Goldmember
Alveric's Avatar
Joined Jan 2011
Canada
Aug 22, 2014 14:49 |  #12

http://pixelcents.com/​pixel-cents/external link

I punched in the values of 4272 pixels (the longest edge from a file from an EOS 450D) at a rate of 2 cents. The resulting value of $85.44 is nothing compared to most expenses. Heck, I spend about as much every time I go to buy groceries. I used the maximum pixel size as I'm thinking of hi-res files for offset/digital book printing. The files could be even smaller.

Maybe people like this professor have seen licencing rates in the hundreds/thousands and they think, 'oh no! I just couldn't afford to pay ~$500 per photo. This project has like 1000 photos!' Well, I couldn't afford that much either. But non-exclusive licence prices under $100, well, they'd be more manageable, methinks.


'The success of the second-rate is deplorable in itself; but it is more deplorable in that it very often obscures the genuine masterpiece. If the crowd runs after the false, it must neglect the true.' —Arthur Machen
Why 'The Histogram' Sux (external link)

LOG IN TO REPLY
archer1960
Goldmember
archer1960's Avatar
Joined Jul 2010
Aug 22, 2014 15:04 |  #13

Alveric wrote in post #17111927external link
http://pixelcents.com/​pixel-cents/external link

I punched in the values of 4272 pixels (the longest edge from a file from an EOS 450D) at a rate of 2 cents. The resulting value of $85.44 is nothing compared to most expenses. Heck, I spend about as much every time I go to buy groceries. I used the maximum pixel size as I'm thinking of hi-res files for offset/digital book printing. The files could be even smaller.

Maybe people like this professor have seen licencing rates in the hundreds/thousands and they think, 'oh no! I just couldn't afford to pay ~$500 per photo. This project has like 1000 photos!' Well, I couldn't afford that much either. But non-exclusive licence prices under $100, well, they'd be more manageable, methinks.

Especially if they only need a few of them to fill in the holes where the author doesn't have his own images.


Gripped 7D, gripped, full-spectrum modfied T1i (500D), SX50HS, A2E film body, Tamzooka (150-600), Tamron 90mm/2.8 VC (ver 2), Tamron 18-270 VC, Canon FD 100 f/4.0 macro, Canon 24-105 f/4L,Canon EF 200 f/2.8LII, Canon 85 f/1.8, Tamron Adaptall 2 90mmf/2.5 Macro, Tokina 11-16, Canon EX-430 flash, Vivitar DF-383 flash, Astro-Tech AT6RC and Celestron NexStar 102 GT telescopes, various other semi-crappy manual lenses and stuff.

LOG IN TO REPLY
texkam
"Just let me be a stupid photographer."
texkam's Avatar
1,109 posts
Joined Mar 2012
By The Lake in Big D
Aug 22, 2014 15:31 |  #14

"cannot pay photographers" translates to "Someone decided not to include anything for photos in the budget."

This ^

The day they don't pay for pens and paper and electricity and office space and computers and accounting services and legal services and printing services and gasoline and ......... is the day you can provide your "something of value" for free.

Really tired of no respect.




LOG IN TO REPLY
Dan ­ Marchant
Goldmember
Dan Marchant's Avatar
Joined Oct 2011
Where I'm from is unimportant, it's where I'm going that counts.
Aug 22, 2014 21:00 |  #15

FerozeK wrote in post #17110955external link
In your country are charitable donations a tax write off? Ask the them to issue you with a certificate for the value of the photo and submit it with your tax returns. A tax deduction in my mind is as good as getting paid!

Sorry but in most locations tax deductions don't work like that. You can't claim for the perceived value of the object you donate (or your hourly rate for the time spent making it). You can only claim for the actual costs incurred (the cost of printing/framing a photo).


Dan Marchant
Website/blog: danmarchant.com (external link)
Instagram: @dan_marchant (external link)
Gear Canon 5DIII + Fuji X-T2 + lenses + a plastic widget I found in the camera box.

LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as registered member)

5,618 views & 0 likes for this thread
Another request for insect photos, no pay offered
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography


Not a member yet? Click here to register to the forums.
Registered members get all the features: search, following threads, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, settings, view hosted photos, own reviews and more...


AAA

Send feedback to staff    •   Jump to forum...    •   Rules    •   Index    •   New posts    •   RTAT    •   'Best of'    •   Gallery    •   Gear    •   Reviews    •   Polls

COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Privacy policy and cookie usage info.

POWERED BY AMASS 1.4version 1.4
made in Finland
by Pekka Saarinen
for photography-on-the.net
Spent 0.00321 for 6 database queries.
PAGE COMPLETED IN 0.04s
Latest registered member is belerim
500 guests, 315 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 6106, that happened on Jun 09, 2016