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FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera
Thread started 06 Jul 2015 (Monday) 15:04
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5Dsr vs 6D vs Sony A7 II (money no object)

 
Aressem
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Jul 10, 2015 15:48 |  #31

mystik610 wrote in post #17627213 (external link)
No mirror = no mirror miscalibration issues = no need for MFA

Oh my god... That's enough of a reason to go mirrorless all on its own! I had NO IDEA!


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Thonex
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Jul 10, 2015 16:18 |  #32

Aressem wrote in post #17627272 (external link)
Oh my god... That's enough of a reason to go mirrorless all on its own! I had NO IDEA!

Yeah... Another thing that I never thought about.

Cheers.... AK.


6D, 7D, EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L II IS USM, EF 100mm L Macro, 24-105mm f/4 L IS USM, EFS 15-85 IS f/3.5-5.6, 50mm f/1.4
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davesrose
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Post has been edited over 2 years ago by davesrose.
Jul 10, 2015 21:02 |  #33

ilumo wrote in post #17627231 (external link)
I really hope so. I'm really getting sad that sony is making all these amazing sensors, and all canon is doing is giving us some more resolution. I'm perfectly happy with my resolution. give me more DR and ISO!

We'll see. It does seem that DR is the main complaint people have with Canon (Canon sensors do just as well with ISO, but not DR). Personally, I don't find Canons that limiting in the DR department. Yes, Sony has much better shadow recovery, but usable DR isn't that much greater. You do get some more wiggle room with regular exposures, but an extreme in brightness and shadows doesn't seem that different with any camera. These days with the great tools in PS and Lightroom, I can get good hand held bracketed shots in a scene that wouldn't be possible with any single shot. It would be great if we had some camera that could record an extreme DR scene, but that's not going to materialize soon.

The 5DSr does seem to have come out to win the MP race...is it a stopgap for the best Sony sensors? One rumor I've read that's interesting is that the August announcement will be the 1DXmkII, and it will use the foveon type patents Canon has (and may have much improved DR). Is it wishful thinking from a Canon fan? We'll see. One thing that does seem certain now is that it's anyone's game. DSLRs and mirrorless cameras are very niche (most of the lay public's cameras now are smart phone cameras). I'm still hesitant to try to get a Sony mirror less and then see what limitations my Canon lenses will have: for my travel setup, I'd rather just limit myself to the DSLR and one lens. Seems that if you really want to take advantage of all Sony has to offer, you should invest in the whole system. Does Canon feel competition to produce some stunning DSLR that is the right balance of MP and DR? We shall see....for now I think they're sitting on their laurels still watching the market. Nikon D810 still isn't a show stopper: have a friend that is a Canon fan who had to switch to Nikon. He's said he still likes Canon optics and AF...if he didn't have to, he'd still be with Canon. For me, the main distinctions seem to be whole optical system.


Canon 5D mk III , 7D mk II
EF 135mm 2.0L, EF 70-200mm 2.8L IS II, EF 24-70 2.8L II, EF 50mm 1.4, EF 100mm 2.8L Macro, EF 16-35mm 4L IS, Sigma 150-600mm C, 580EX, 600EX-RT, MeFoto Globetrotter tripod, grips, Black Rapid RS-7, CAMS plate and strap system, Lowepro Flipside 500 AW, and a few other things...
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mystik610
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Post has been edited over 2 years ago by mystik610.
Jul 10, 2015 22:07 |  #34

davesrose wrote in post #17627527 (external link)
Seems that if you really want to take advantage of all Sony has to offer, you should invest in the whole system.

The a7rII is able to AF quickly with Canon lenses, so this is no longer the case.


focalpointsphoto.com (external link) - flickr (external link) - Instagram (external link)
α7ʀII - RX1ʀII - α9 - Zeiss Loxia 21 - Sony/Zeiss 35 f1.4 ZA - 85GM - Sony 70-200GM

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Charlie
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Jul 11, 2015 01:11 |  #35

davesrose wrote in post #17627527 (external link)
We'll see. It does seem that DR is the main complaint people have with Canon (Canon sensors do just as well with ISO, but not DR). Personally, I don't find Canons that limiting in the DR department. Yes, Sony has much better shadow recovery, but usable DR isn't that much greater. You do get some more wiggle room with regular exposures, but an extreme in brightness and shadows doesn't seem that different with any camera. These days with the great tools in PS and Lightroom, I can get good hand held bracketed shots in a scene that wouldn't be possible with any single shot. It would be great if we had some camera that could record an extreme DR scene, but that's not going to materialize soon.

The 5DSr does seem to have come out to win the MP race...is it a stopgap for the best Sony sensors? One rumor I've read that's interesting is that the August announcement will be the 1DXmkII, and it will use the foveon type patents Canon has (and may have much improved DR). Is it wishful thinking from a Canon fan? We'll see. One thing that does seem certain now is that it's anyone's game. DSLRs and mirrorless cameras are very niche (most of the lay public's cameras now are smart phone cameras). I'm still hesitant to try to get a Sony mirror less and then see what limitations my Canon lenses will have: for my travel setup, I'd rather just limit myself to the DSLR and one lens. Seems that if you really want to take advantage of all Sony has to offer, you should invest in the whole system. Does Canon feel competition to produce some stunning DSLR that is the right balance of MP and DR? We shall see....for now I think they're sitting on their laurels still watching the market. Nikon D810 still isn't a show stopper: have a friend that is a Canon fan who had to switch to Nikon. He's said he still likes Canon optics and AF...if he didn't have to, he'd still be with Canon. For me, the main distinctions seem to be whole optical system.

essentially, I agree mostly on the DR front, the 6D seems to have even lesser DR than the 5Ds, but I think it's pretty clear that they have similar newer gen sensors, which basically get rid of banding, which makes it a lot more usable. I do my best to shoot when lighting is just perfect, and super dynamic range isnt too big of a deal. I can make HDR work in most scenarios via masking and whatever, I cant really say that the DR has saved shots, however the DR has definitely saved time. I HDR less often, so that's good.

there are a few considerations you need to do, are you a stills shooter or fast action?

do you care for an ultra small setup?

do you care about battery life?


well if you favor still photography more than fast action then the sony is for you, else canon is for you. Canon can shoot just as well for stills, however the tools at your disposal make the sony a much more accurate and precise tool. Sony can shoot action as well, just not as well as canon.

for an ultra small setup, you can achieve that with sony, not possible with canon.

Canon can shoot forever on a charge, however with sony, you have to be mindful of how you shoot. If you leave it on all the time like a dslr, then you'll get 2-300 shutters out of a battery, however if you're diligent about turning off and on, expect 700+ from a charge.

as for optics, canon has some really good stuff, especially their recent stuff. That's especially good for sony users as well  :p. Gems from canon, nikon, sony, and vintage glass, all beneficial for sony users, however the same cant be said for canon. MF through the pentaprism is a nightmare, even with a helpful focus screen.


Sony A7rii x2 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - FE 35/2.8 - CV 35/1.7 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 35-70, 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8, 24/1.4 - Tamron 28-75 f2.8, 70-200 f2.8 VC

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davesrose
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Jul 11, 2015 07:26 |  #36

mystik610 wrote in post #17627563 (external link)
The a7rII is able to AF quickly with Canon lenses, so this is no longer the case.

Is it confirmed that every Canon lens mount works well with the A7RII? While it seems it does have improvements from previous Sonys, I'd be skeptical that every Canon can work (look at some 3rd party Canon mount lens manufacturers dealing with incompatibilities with the 5DS). Sony does seem like the best alternative to Canon, but it does seem like you should ideally just be vested in one system. From time to time, I debate about picking up a "traveling camera", and Sony is certainly a top consideration. A lot of times, I see that it is tempting just to get a metabones adapter to be able to use all the Canon lenses. But once you add that and the Canon lens, the system suddenly isn't that much smaller then just having the DSLR attached to the lens:) My idea of a travel setup is taking the 5D with grip and just one lens....the only way it seems it would get smaller is if I go with a mirrorless and some nice kit lens. I'm pampered, though, with fast lenses....so once you go to 2.8 or better, then it starts looking ridiculous to have a huge lens attached to a small camera IMO. I also like having a larger camera body for balance and stability.


Canon 5D mk III , 7D mk II
EF 135mm 2.0L, EF 70-200mm 2.8L IS II, EF 24-70 2.8L II, EF 50mm 1.4, EF 100mm 2.8L Macro, EF 16-35mm 4L IS, Sigma 150-600mm C, 580EX, 600EX-RT, MeFoto Globetrotter tripod, grips, Black Rapid RS-7, CAMS plate and strap system, Lowepro Flipside 500 AW, and a few other things...
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mystik610
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Post has been last edited over 2 years ago by mystik610. 3 edits done in total.
Jul 11, 2015 07:42 |  #37

davesrose wrote in post #17627783 (external link)
Is it confirmed that every Canon lens mount works well with the A7RII? While it seems it does have improvements from previous Sonys, I'd be skeptical that every Canon can work (look at some 3rd party Canon mount lens manufacturers dealing with incompatibilities with the 5DS). Sony does seem like the best alternative to Canon, but it does seem like you should ideally just be vested in one system. From time to time, I debate about picking up a "traveling camera", and Sony is certainly a top consideration. A lot of times, I see that it is tempting just to get a metabones adapter to be able to use all the Canon lenses. But once you add that and the Canon lens, the system suddenly isn't that much smaller then just having the DSLR attached to the lens:) My idea of a travel setup is taking the 5D with grip and just one lens....the only way it seems it would get smaller is if I go with a mirrorless and some nice kit lens. I'm pampered, though, with fast lenses....so once you go to 2.8 or better, then it starts looking ridiculous to have a huge lens attached to a small camera IMO. I also like having a larger camera body for balance and stability.

The a7rII hasn't hit the market yet, and I would normally be skeptical, but there are about a dozen or so videos of the a7rII's AF performance with various Canon's lenses and I'm optimistic about it. The video I posted to the second page shows how the a7rII performs with a Sigma 50 1.4 attached, and there's a video out there with a Tamron 15-30 that looks promising as well.

We'll see how this pans out once it really hits the market, but it looks very promising so far. The a7rII looks to be the first universal camera, and the beauty of that is that you aren't locked into a single system of lenses. This means you can use the best from Canon, Nikon, Leica, etc....along with Sony's portfolio of native lenses (many of which are very good). This is technically already the case for those of us who have re-discovered manual focus thanks to focus peaking and IBIS, and it's been pretty awesome (and a lot of fun) shooting with vintage and modern lenses from a variety of different mounts.

In terms of the size consideration...the beauty of the a7 series is that you have the ability to switch between a 'big camera' with something like a Canon EF large aperture zoom, or a very compact set-up by mounting some of Sony's smaller native primes, or smaller adapted lenses like the voitglander 40 1.4. i.e., the a7r + FE 35 2.8 was able to fit in a coat pocket, and had better IQ than any Canon DSLR I've ever used. With a DSLR, you're basically stuck with a large camera.


focalpointsphoto.com (external link) - flickr (external link) - Instagram (external link)
α7ʀII - RX1ʀII - α9 - Zeiss Loxia 21 - Sony/Zeiss 35 f1.4 ZA - 85GM - Sony 70-200GM

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davesrose
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Jul 11, 2015 08:19 |  #38

mystik610 wrote in post #17627795 (external link)
In terms of the size consideration...the beauty of the a7 series is that you have the ability to switch between a 'big camera' with something like a Canon EF large aperture zoom, or a very compact set-up by mounting some of Sony's smaller native primes, or smaller adapted lenses like the voitglander 40 1.4. i.e., the a7r + FE 35 2.8 was able to fit in a coat pocket, and had better IQ than any Canon DSLR I've ever used. With a DSLR, you're basically stuck with a large camera.

I think this really is the main factor in deciding whether to add an A7 to your Canon gear. I do appreciate your posts and observations as a Canon user getting into Sony. My first digital camera was a nice Sony Cybershot, and I still remember it fondly (did get a pocket Nikon P&S and it was just awful). So I do regard the Sony brand well for digital imaging (and the corporation seems to be focusing on their imaging to try to leverage out of their financial woes). For something convenient, I've been wondering whether I should get an A6000: Gary Fong seems to be the biggest spokesperson as a former Canon user getting into the Sony ecosystem. He indicates that most his personal shots are with the A6000. Sony certainly seems to have the best range of mirrorless cameras: you can chose whether to go M4/3, APS, or even FF. If you are into street photography, then get a Sony with pancake lens and you're golden. Overall reviews of the camera bodies still have me being really hesitant to get the A7 though. Besides the larger size, the overall ergonomics of the Canon DSLR is something I also like. Other impressions from DSLR users trying mirrorless seems mixed (some don't like the small and gummy feedback of the buttons). Different strokes for different folks, so it's all good!


Canon 5D mk III , 7D mk II
EF 135mm 2.0L, EF 70-200mm 2.8L IS II, EF 24-70 2.8L II, EF 50mm 1.4, EF 100mm 2.8L Macro, EF 16-35mm 4L IS, Sigma 150-600mm C, 580EX, 600EX-RT, MeFoto Globetrotter tripod, grips, Black Rapid RS-7, CAMS plate and strap system, Lowepro Flipside 500 AW, and a few other things...
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mystik610
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Post has been edited over 2 years ago by mystik610.
Jul 11, 2015 13:19 |  #39

davesrose wrote in post #17627815 (external link)
Different strokes for different folks, so it's all good!

Absolutely. Now that the gap between mirrorless and DSLR has basically been bridged for most uses, the choices becomes more a matter of personal preference vs balancing compromises in capability. It's a good time to be a photographer!


focalpointsphoto.com (external link) - flickr (external link) - Instagram (external link)
α7ʀII - RX1ʀII - α9 - Zeiss Loxia 21 - Sony/Zeiss 35 f1.4 ZA - 85GM - Sony 70-200GM

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davesrose
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Jul 11, 2015 15:17 |  #40

mystik610 wrote in post #17628075 (external link)
It's a good time to be a photographer!

Indeed! I found when I first got into digital photography, it didn't have the capabilities of film (was mainly really quick and easy to check your exposures). Now digital has matured enough that it's surpassed anything film had. The only advantage film may have is that it's a tangible archive (if it's stock holds up well). Digital negatives may not be as permanent as you need to keep the software to decode it. Times are a changing with technology, but the fundamentals in photography never change!


Canon 5D mk III , 7D mk II
EF 135mm 2.0L, EF 70-200mm 2.8L IS II, EF 24-70 2.8L II, EF 50mm 1.4, EF 100mm 2.8L Macro, EF 16-35mm 4L IS, Sigma 150-600mm C, 580EX, 600EX-RT, MeFoto Globetrotter tripod, grips, Black Rapid RS-7, CAMS plate and strap system, Lowepro Flipside 500 AW, and a few other things...
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Charlie
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Jul 11, 2015 16:55 |  #41

davesrose wrote in post #17627783 (external link)
I'm pampered, though, with fast lenses....so once you go to 2.8 or better, then it starts looking ridiculous to have a huge lens attached to a small camera IMO. I also like having a larger camera body for balance and stability.


small, large sensor, fast aperture travel camera at your service.

F1.4 lens, close focus ability maybe 1:4 macro, stabilized. Stabilization is not only good for stills, but incidental video that you may have on a trip. The audio is much better as well, the 5D3 would pick up lens IS (if even available), and thus need post work or an external mic.

the whole setup weighs less than the 5D3 body alone, and due to the shorter high, can fit into more compact bags. My favorite small bag being the lowepro utility bag 100. Can comfortably fit this camera and lens, and another lens, the zeiss 100. The zeiss 100 is a full fledged largish lens, however it's optics are so good, that I have a hard time going with just one lens. In the end, the total package weighs as much as the 5D3 and a single prime, however, I've got two primes, and can fit in a very small pack. The combo is just enough that I can carry the whole day without being a burden.

I recall bringing the 6D, 50L, and 135L to the amusement park..... it was just too much weight for an entire day of shooting. The bag needed to be significantly bigger as well, and too big to take on rides. however the lowepro utility 100 is small enough to take on rides, and with belt clip, becomes secure as well.

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Sony A7rii x2 - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - FE 35/2.8 - CV 35/1.7 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CZ 35-70, 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8, 24/1.4 - Tamron 28-75 f2.8, 70-200 f2.8 VC

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davesrose
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Jul 11, 2015 17:34 |  #42

Charlie wrote in post #17628231 (external link)
F1.4 lens, close focus ability maybe 1:4 macro, stabilized. Stabilization is not only good for stills, but incidental video that you may have on a trip. The audio is much better as well, the 5D3 would pick up lens IS (if even available), and thus need post work or an external mic.

Yes, primes can be faster and much smaller then zooms. There are some nice Zeiss options for the Sony mount. I don't think any system is really great for audio: if internal, they'll all pick up you futzing with the different buttons/dials. The sounds of the lens AF is pretty ancillary.


Canon 5D mk III , 7D mk II
EF 135mm 2.0L, EF 70-200mm 2.8L IS II, EF 24-70 2.8L II, EF 50mm 1.4, EF 100mm 2.8L Macro, EF 16-35mm 4L IS, Sigma 150-600mm C, 580EX, 600EX-RT, MeFoto Globetrotter tripod, grips, Black Rapid RS-7, CAMS plate and strap system, Lowepro Flipside 500 AW, and a few other things...
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Tony_Stark
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Jul 11, 2015 19:59 |  #43

I'd go 6D + glass. 5DSR is for when you need maximum resolution for ultra sharp images or large printing. The high ISO is not amazing and would ever go so far to say very similar to the 7D. 6D beats the 5DSR hands down for high ISO. I havent used the Sony but there are too many compromises for me in a mirrorless system to go with it.


Nikon D810 | 24-70/2.8G | 58/1.4G
EOS M | 22 f/2 STM

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Thonex
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Jul 13, 2015 00:35 |  #44

Tony_Stark wrote in post #17628361 (external link)
I'd go 6D + glass. 5DSR is for when you need maximum resolution for ultra sharp images or large printing. The high ISO is not amazing and would ever go so far to say very similar to the 7D. 6D beats the 5DSR hands down for high ISO. I havent used the Sony but there are too many compromises for me in a mirrorless system to go with it.

Hi Tony_Stark,

I just looked at your before/after gallery on your site... WOW.... great work!!!

So may talented people on this site!

Cheers,

Andrew K


6D, 7D, EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L II IS USM, EF 100mm L Macro, 24-105mm f/4 L IS USM, EFS 15-85 IS f/3.5-5.6, 50mm f/1.4
Some of my Pics (external link)

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Tony_Stark
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Jul 13, 2015 11:42 |  #45

Thonex wrote in post #17629575 (external link)
Hi Tony_Stark,

I just looked at your before/after gallery on your site... WOW.... great work!!!

So may talented people on this site!

Cheers,

Andrew K

Thank you sir! Very much appreciated!


Nikon D810 | 24-70/2.8G | 58/1.4G
EOS M | 22 f/2 STM

Website (external link) | flickr (external link)

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