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Thread started 05 Aug 2015 (Wednesday) 01:57
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Will Canon ever make a High Resolution/High Dynamic Range sensor?

 
Canon_Shoe
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Aug 05, 2015 01:57 |  #1

Very tough time right now to upgrade.....Could go for the 5DS(R) and you have insane resolution, but very poor DR and ISO performance in comparison to the competition and I do shoot landscapes so I need these things! Could pick up the A7RII and still retain my Canon lenses, but the AF still does not look to be up to par and then there's the lack of weather sealing, battery life, lossy RAW files, and who knows where you get it serviced? Don't really think I could count on it to shoot a wedding. Could switch to Nikon, but dang that's a big move for someone like me on a budget and I still believe Canon has better lenses. What would be nice is something with the performance of the A7RII but from Canon! I've played with the RAWs from the 5DS, A7RII, and the D810 and Canon is very far behind in sensor performance.....this really isn't even an argument anymore. They currently have the resolution yes, but they're at least 2 stops behind the competition in DR which is just unacceptable and behind in ISO performance as far as noise is concerned. Sorry for the rant, just been waiting for years for Canon to answer the D800 and it seems they're further behind than ever......I guess I will continue to wait


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Aug 05, 2015 05:16 |  #2

Not everyone needs more than 12.4 stops of DR, so it isn't a pressing issue for many. The new cameras are better than any other Canon at this point, and coupled with lens investments and the high resolution, many are flocking to the 5ds/5dsr. Market share losses will drive canon to change their design.


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Post edited over 2 years ago by mwsilver. (2 edits in all)
     
Aug 05, 2015 11:06 |  #3

Canon_Shoe wrote in post #17657022 (external link)
Very tough time right now to upgrade.....Could go for the 5DS(R) and you have insane resolution, but very poor DR and ISO performance in comparison to the competition and I do shoot landscapes so I need these things! Could pick up the A7RII and still retain my Canon lenses, but the AF still does not look to be up to par and then there's the lack of weather sealing, battery life, lossy RAW files, and who knows where you get it serviced? Don't really think I could count on it to shoot a wedding. Could switch to Nikon, but dang that's a big move for someone like me on a budget and I still believe Canon has better lenses. What would be nice is something with the performance of the A7RII but from Canon! I've played with the RAWs from the 5DS, A7RII, and the D810 and Canon is very far behind in sensor performance.....this really isn't even an argument anymore. They currently have the resolution yes, but they're at least 2 stops behind the competition in DR which is just unacceptable and behind in ISO performance as far as noise is concerned. Sorry for the rant, just been waiting for years for Canon to answer the D800 and it seems they're further behind than ever......I guess I will continue to wait

So, all the photos you've been taking with your Canon gear over the years is woefully lacking in dynamic range and are very noisy? And the millions of great photos taken with Canon bodies now all suck? Yes, Canon is certainly behind in sensor technology as we've seen in review after review, but in real world use how often is that really an issue? In tests few people are able to tell whether a picture is from a higher or lower dynamic range sensor. While there are certainly times when having a wider dynamic range is important, in real world conditions those occasions are relatively rare.


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Aug 05, 2015 11:13 |  #4

Will Canon ever make a High Resolution/High Dynamic Range sensor?

No. Never.

Time to find a new hobby.


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scotchtape
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Aug 05, 2015 11:32 |  #5

I switched. 5D3/6D -> D750

Performance wise I am satisfied. Brand wise...

Never had to send in a Canon before and I've owned like 10 of them.
These two Nikons I've sent to the shop 4 times between the both of them so far.

Still would have done it even with these issues. Camera and files are great.
I like Canon color science a bit better, but I prefer cleaner shadows and more DR.

Canon eco system in the Americas seems to be better, lots of lenses for cheaper, lots of accessories for cheaper, and more of them.
I kept all my Canon lenses hoping that one day they will have a decent sensor :(

I thought A7R II with adapter focused just as fast as Canon? If they beefed up the battery I'd be sold immediately. Well, that and the cost.
Still might get one in two years time when the price comes down.




  
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Canon_Shoe
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Aug 05, 2015 11:37 as a reply to  @ mwsilver's post |  #6

No, I love my Canon gear and the photos I've been taking for years I've spent thousands of hours blending for dynamic range in photoshop. 2 stops of DR is a LOT of information when you're shooting landscapes. I enjoy Canon's ergonomics, easy to learn, and I can pick up any Canon and take great photos, and most of all their lenses. All I ask is similar DR and Noise performance out of the sensor. If I shoot anything with a D810 and look at the RAW files, it makes me want to throw my gear away it's that much of a difference and takes little time to edit


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Canon_Shoe
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Aug 05, 2015 11:40 as a reply to  @ scotchtape's post |  #7

I wonder if you could fix the colors by making an x-rite dual illuminant camera profile? I make them for each body and my colors are the same...... I also read (I don't know if it's true), that when using the new A7RII with Canon lenses, you cannot pick your AF point? If that's true, that's a total deal breaker for me


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Aug 05, 2015 15:07 |  #8

TeamSpeed wrote in post #17657097 (external link)
Not everyone needs more than 12.4 stops of DR, so it isn't a pressing issue for many. The new cameras are better than any other Canon at this point, and coupled with lens investments and the high resolution, many are flocking to the 5ds/5dsr. Market share losses will drive canon to change their design.

Maybe not everyone NEEDS more dynamic range but once you have a camera that has more and you see it -it's hard to go back.Canon pretty much has been stuck on 11.5-12 max now for years,really ever since 2007 when the nikon D3 came out they have been behind :(


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Canon_Shoe
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Aug 05, 2015 15:36 as a reply to  @ PNPhotography's post |  #9

Once you've had a taste of what Nikon/Sony is doing with their sensors, it's frustrating to look at your own Canon RAW files


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Aug 05, 2015 17:01 |  #10

There is more to a camera or camera system than DR.
As a Canon user I would certainly like more DR - but what are the alternatives?
I am primarily a wildlife photographer, so although I liked the IQ and light weight of the Sony offerings the cameras are simply hopeless for my uses. If Sony made top quality long lenses then that would be better than using my lenses, via an adapter, but they don't so the system is simply non viable.
I did get the opportunity to play with some Nikon gear and that was so much better! I used a D800E, D4 and a 500 F4 VR lens - now we were getting somewhere! Unfortunately somewhere was not quite where I wanted to be. The D800E was simply too slow and limited in ISO performance - though I am certain it is great for other uses, and whilst the D4 was much better it was still significantly behind my 1DX (though not in the ISO department). I found the AF and tracking on both cameras to be a bit lacking compared to my Canon setup and I don't even have a Canon Mk2 SuperTele which would have widened the gap even further.

For now I will just have to live with the more limited DR range, though I don't find it limiting at all, not being able to drag shadows as much (which I don't do anyway) as the other systems are inferior in more important aspects than my current system. Would I like more DR (please Canon) yes, but only if it does not compromise other sensor performance parameters, do I have a viable alternative to Canon for my uses - not really - yet?????


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Post edited over 2 years ago by GregDunn.
     
Aug 05, 2015 17:22 |  #11

canon rookie wrote in post #17657743 (external link)
Maybe not everyone NEEDS more dynamic range but once you have a camera that has more and you see it -it's hard to go back.Canon pretty much has been stuck on 11.5-12 max now for years,really ever since 2007 when the nikon D3 came out they have been behind :(

The absolute most you can possibly get out of a modern camera is 14 stops, because that's the limit of the A/D converters in them. Consider that the shot noise + quantization error will eat up another stop of that, and you'll be lucky to get 13 stops even with a perfect sensor. It's all limited by the downstream electronics and the nature of photon statistics which is a hard physical limit. Even with a 16-bit A/D (and it will be a while before those make it to commercial photography systems) you're still limited by shot noise and quantization to roughly 15 stops, with a perfect sensor.

Nikon appears to have better DR at low ISOs because they clip the blacks, cutting noise along with some of the data; generally the difference is not discernible because the shot noise is at the same level as the data in the bottom bit. At high ISO, they're no better than the Canon system. There is no magic in physics.


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Post edited over 2 years ago by AJSJones. (2 edits in all)
     
Aug 05, 2015 21:07 |  #12

Canon_Shoe wrote in post #17657022 (external link)
Very tough time right now to upgrade.....Could go for the 5DS(R) and you have insane resolution, but very poor DR and ISO performance in comparison to the competition and I do shoot landscapes so I need these things! Could pick up the A7RII and still retain my Canon lenses, but the AF still does not look to be up to par and then there's the lack of weather sealing, battery life, lossy RAW files, and who knows where you get it serviced? Don't really think I could count on it to shoot a wedding. Could switch to Nikon, but dang that's a big move for someone like me on a budget and I still believe Canon has better lenses. What would be nice is something with the performance of the A7RII but from Canon! I've played with the RAWs from the 5DS, A7RII, and the D810 and Canon is very far behind in sensor performance.....this really isn't even an argument anymore. They currently have the resolution yes, but they're at least 2 stops behind the competition in DR which is just unacceptable and behind in ISO performance as far as noise is concerned. Sorry for the rant, just been waiting for years for Canon to answer the D800 and it seems they're further behind than ever......I guess I will continue to wait

AF is good 24-70 V2 see link - newer lenses will work well, older ones, we will have to wait for folks to report back... http://photography-on-the.net …showthread.php?​p=17657652 and posts after that.
Lens rentals demo here : http://www.fredmiranda​.com/forum/topic/13796​28 (external link)

This one is in German https://vimeo.com/1353​74765 (external link) but sings the same praises for modern EF lenses - even a newer Sigma Art series...


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kcbrown
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Aug 06, 2015 21:31 |  #13

GregDunn wrote in post #17657874 (external link)
Nikon appears to have better DR at low ISOs because they clip the blacks, cutting noise along with some of the data; generally the difference is not discernible because the shot noise is at the same level as the data in the bottom bit. At high ISO, they're no better than the Canon system. There is no magic in physics.

While clipping the blacks may take the shot noise out of the equation, it cannot actually increase the dynamic range (and thus a proper measurement of it) because the dynamic range is the ratio of the distinguishable source intensities, i.e. the range of lumens that are recordable by the sensor in a single shot.

The NIkon DRs are in fact higher than those recorded by the Canon at low ISOs. Were this not the case, you could clip the blacks in postprocessing on the Canons and achieve results identical to (if not better -- if you start off with more data, you can achieve better results, and clipping the blacks throws away some data) those from the Nikon. But such is not the case at all, because what Nikon's sensor is recording is a wider span of incoming light intensities than what Canon's sensor is recording, and that is manifestly evident in the results.


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davesrose
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Aug 07, 2015 06:06 |  #14

I think the difference in DR between Canon vs Sony sensors does get blown out of proportion. True HDR images for light simulations have up to 32 stops of light. It's going to be many, many years until a brand can make a truely high dynamic range sensor. With my own landscapes, I don't find Canon's DR to be that limiting: perhaps it's also because I first started with a 5Dc when it was new (and back then, I really had to experiment with exposure to get all my prefered contrast in highlights instead of shadows). When I upgraded to the 5D3, I immediately saw a difference in improved DR. I'm experienced enough now with Canon and PP that if I am in an environment that is going to have HDR, I'll bracket (even hand held). For most these environments, it seems you'd need to bracket with the best Sony sensors as well. You can recover more blacks with the Sony, but you can't record higher light intensities. The Sony sensor and ADC have a lower noise floor. It's also probably with newer software that I'm able to reduce noise (with DNR), if I do need to push up shadows ( though since I'm used to Canon, I'm always trying to get my exposures near clipping in highlights instead of shadows).

As far as speculation, we can only wait and see what Canon does with their DSLRs. It's an interesting period with more competition for video and mirrorless features. One rumor I've heard is that the 1DX2 might have the foveon type patents Canon has...anyone's guess if that's true:)

I also have a friend that had to switch from the the 5D3 to the D810 for work. He's found the best thing about its sensor is that he can recover files if his flash doesn't fire. He's said that if he had the option, he'd still be with Canon (he prefered the AF, optics, and ergonomics of Canon).


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Chopper ­ Al
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Aug 07, 2015 14:24 |  #15

Well, there is always this from Canon with ISO 4 million.

http://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1436236




  
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Will Canon ever make a High Resolution/High Dynamic Range sensor?
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