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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Weddings & Other Family Events Talk
Thread started 10 Sep 2015 (Thursday) 09:07
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Wedding photography Advice

 
tim
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Sep 14, 2015 15:26 |  #16

cdiver2 wrote in post #17706941 (external link)
There is a paid photog. My seating for the ceremony is front isle seat, however plans have changed for the ceremony, bride/daughter has asked me to make the ceremony a video, I will get what I can from my seat.

Get a compact camera that does decent video, put it on a tripod, hit record. Make sure it can record the length you need. Don't hand hold a DSLR you'll just get an awful recording.

On second though, get a videographer and enjoy your daughters wedding day. Anything you do will mean you're an observer not a participant.


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randizzle
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Sep 14, 2015 15:52 |  #17

I won't try to tell a grown man what to do at his own daughter's wedding but I know one thing is certain: when my own kids get married some day, the last thing in the world I will be worried about is whether or not I'm adequately capturing the video.

There is something to be said for simply being entirely present in the moment. It (hopefully) only happens once.




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Tony_Stark
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Sep 14, 2015 18:43 |  #18

rob0225 wrote in post #17704062 (external link)
Leave the camera at home and enjoy your daughters wedding in person and not behind a lens.

Best advice in this whole thread.


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Silver-Halide
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Sep 14, 2015 19:11 |  #19

Sitting in the front row, with a 100-400mm lens... on a crop sensor camera? What's the MFD on that lens, anyway? :rolleyes: As Brisket pointed out, this massive dong of a lens worn look too flattering in the photos the pro captures of the day.

I advise to leave it at home and enjoy the day. Go photograph some family friends wedding if you want to enjoy the experience. Its fun and fulfilling, but if I were in your shoes I'd just enjoy the day. Congrats to your family. :-)


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memoriesoftomorrow
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Sep 14, 2015 19:12 |  #20

So now you're doing the video too... you're gonna need an external Mic.... and know how to sync audio.

If it really means that much to have it videoed. Hire a videographer.


Peter

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cdiver2
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Sep 14, 2015 20:03 as a reply to post 17707075 |  #21

Lots of advice on keeping out of the professionals way but little on the technical side that I asked for. As I stated I am not at all interested in the posed shots while he is doing that I will be elsewhere taking other shots. It is not difficult to give him his space all it takes is a little thought

As stated I am not responsible for the official photos.

I am not doing this to serve my own purpose I would rather sit back and relax and enjoy the special day. The reason I am doing it, is I was asked by my daughter and the grooms farther. Why I not sure, maybe the fact that groom has just been told his company is moving him overseas and the wedding had to be brought forward from January

The client is my daughter and me, I am paying the photogs fee.

I have acquired a 24-105 lens.

Thanks to all that gave tec advice




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seaLere
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Sep 14, 2015 21:11 |  #22

OhLook wrote in post #17707075 (external link)
I don't think he owes you that courtesy. Reciprocity doesn't apply here. He should be courteous in general, of course, but the two of you have different roles. He's on assignment, which means he's obligated to serve his clients; you're doing something for your own purposes. For instance, if there's just one place to stand to get the best possible shot of some action that will take place only once, let's say it's cake cutting, that spot belongs to him.

I aboslutely agree with this, unfortunately. Keep a distance and capture your moments but I think looking back you would want to be part of the day more than snapping a few photos here and there.


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bumpintheroad
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Sep 15, 2015 02:05 |  #23

Ignoring the debate about the proper and responsible thing to do (and that train wreck of a thread about guests and waiters ruining wedding photos), I'll take a stab at providing some technical advice.


  1. Yes, each time you start and stop recording it saves a new clip. Furthermore, the 7D has a 12 minute maximum recording time, after which it will stop recording and you need to tell the camera to start again. This is generally not a problem because most videos are recorded as shorter clips and then trimmed and reassembled in post processing.
  2. You will need some kind of video post processing program. There are free/cheap options such as Windows Live Movie Maker and Apple iMovie, and then price goes up (way up) from there. Theoretically, as a one-off, you could use the free 30-day evaluation of Adobe Premiere CC. But also, there is a learning curve involved in gaining sufficient familiarity with the software, and with video editing in general, that should not be discounted.
  3. There is also a learning curve involved in shooting video, some of the major points indicated following.
  4. It is important to perform manual white balance for each lighting environment before shooting, otherwise you will go nuts trying to white balance in post. You will need a grey card to measure the white balance and then follow the procedure for your camera.
  5. The Canon 7D does not track focus while recording. Focus is calculated once when you start recording and if the distance to the subject changes you need to adjust to keep them in focus. On the 7D I believe you can use the back button (if setup) or half-press the shutter release to refocus, but that often results in ugly focus hunting in the video. Most videographers rely on manual focus. Manual focus will require considerable practice to do smoothly and reliability, and most videographers use either a magnifying loupe/hood on their camera LCD or a larger external LCD so they are better able to track focus.
  6. Setting exposure for video is different than stills. First you choose your resolution and frame rate, typically 24 or 30 FPS (and do not change these settings throughout the event). Then you select your shutter speed, which is typically 1/(2*FPS), so for 30FPS you would generally choose a shutter speed of 1/60. You can go with a faster shutter speed but this can lead to jerky looking motion and requires more light. Next you choose your aperture based on how much depth-of-field you want, and finally set your ISO to get properly exposed frames at the selected shutter speed and aperture (using neutral density filters or adding light if needed). These settings must all be configured before you start shooting, and only the aperture can be varied while recording. You will have to pay attention to exposure and color balance as lighting conditions change.
  7. You might need auxiliary lighting, such as a 200-300 LED light panel. Because you'll be using this inside it should be tungsten (3200K) or bi-color to balance better with indoor lighting, and should have a CRI rating of at least 85 (89+ recommended). And either a second person to hold the light or some kind of bracket to adjust it over the camera so it's not dead-on to the subject, causing flat lighting and red eye.
  8. Then there's audio. The camera's built-in mic will be worthless in this environment (pretty much in any environment) unless all you want is the noise of the crowd and the sound of your breathing and making camera adjustments. A decent shotgun mic such as the Rode Videomic will be better, and can be mounted on the camera (though you should use some kind of bracket to move it up and away from the lens to minimize noise) and plugged-in to the camera mic input. Best would be to use the shotgun mic on-camera plus putting wireless lav mics on the bride and groom that go to a separate digital audio recorder, with a separate recorder plugged in to the DJ console. You will have to monitor and adjust the audio recording levels throughout the event as well.
  9. You will need stabilization for the camera. The camera/lens IS will only take you so far. A tripod is one solution but is clumsy to drag around; but if you do use a tripod you need one that will allow you to pan and tilt the camera smoothly. A ball head is not ideal for video. A quality pan/tilt head would be better, and a quality fluid head the best. The tripod will need some decent height as well or your video will appear to be from a child's perspective. Most videographers use some kind of shoulder or chest stabilization rig and practice smooth movement.
  10. Don't forget extra batteries and fast SD cards for cameras, recorders, mics and lights.

When shooting get close to your subject. Avoid excessive panning and zooming during the clip. Shoot stuff that is interesting and shows action; the still photographer will take care of the static shots and formals (although some clips of the formals as they get setup can be interesting). You can always add stills to the video when editing. Most of the weddings I've attended has the videographer go around and ask guests to record a personal message to the B&G. Concentrate on highlights such as the processional, ring exchange, kiss, receiving line, introduction, toast, cake cutting/feeding, garter, bouquet, dancing. For some of this stuff you may well find your 100-400 a benefit, although the narrow aperture will cause some challenges with available light. Of course you're going to have a conflict on how to film yourself walking your daughter up the aisle and giving her away, daddy's dance, and the potential emotional moments of you watching the ceremony and sharing the experience with your wife and others.

I suggest talking to the hired photographer first and let him know what you've been asked to do, and ask for any advice or ground rules he can offer to minimize and interference between your and his needs. For example, your video light or even presence can interfere with his shots, and you will often be contending for position for highlight activities.

Filming the day is less than half the work. I spend at least 10 minutes editing each finished minute of video. My daughter does video post for a living and is much faster, but it still takes her at least an hour to edit a 15 minute video (and that's with the someone else pre-selecting which clips will be used). You might consider farming out the post production; there are many people from countries in Asia and Southern Asia who offer editing services and affordable rates. A big problem is deciding what to include, what to leave out and how to cut the clips to wind up with a nice result that isn't too long. Breaking the day into several different finished videos helps, but that also means creating chapters and a menu on the DVD, more work.

Based on the questions you've asked you need to spend a lot of time practicing and experimenting before the wedding, and probably a few hundred more dollars of gear to buy to do it well. Maybe it's time to take an honest, objective look at what you want to accomplish and why. You've already spent around $1k for a new lens, then you'll spend at least another $150 for a shotgun mic, possibly more for a suitable tripod or stabilizing rig, plus whatever software you buy. You might find that the same amount of money could have better been spent in engaging the photographer to also have a videographer cover the wedding. Then you could simply bring a good point-and-shoot to grab some stills and video as the opportunity presents itself, and otherwise attend to your role as father of the bride and enjoy the day.

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cdiver2
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Sep 15, 2015 09:28 |  #24

bumpintheroad wrote in post #17708020 (external link)
Ignoring the debate about the proper and responsible thing to do (and that train wreck of a thread about guests and waiters ruining wedding photos), I'll take a stab at providing some technical advice.


  1. Yes, each time you start and stop recording it saves a new clip. Furthermore, the 7D has a 12 minute maximum recording time, after which it will stop recording and you need to tell the camera to start again. This is generally not a problem because most videos are recorded as shorter clips and then trimmed and reassembled in post processing.
  2. You will need some kind of video post processing program. There are free/cheap options such as Windows Live Movie Maker and Apple iMovie, and then price goes up (way up) from there. Theoretically, as a one-off, you could use the free 30-day evaluation of Adobe Premiere CC. But also, there is a learning curve involved in gaining sufficient familiarity with the software, and with video editing in general, that should not be discounted.
  3. There is also a learning curve involved in shooting video, some of the major points indicated following.
  4. It is important to perform manual white balance for each lighting environment before shooting, otherwise you will go nuts trying to white balance in post. You will need a grey card to measure the white balance and then follow the procedure for your camera.
  5. The Canon 7D does not track focus while recording. Focus is calculated once when you start recording and if the distance to the subject changes you need to adjust to keep them in focus. On the 7D I believe you can use the back button (if setup) or half-press the shutter release to refocus, but that often results in ugly focus hunting in the video. Most videographers rely on manual focus. Manual focus will require considerable practice to do smoothly and reliability, and most videographers use either a magnifying loupe/hood on their camera LCD or a larger external LCD so they are better able to track focus.
  6. Setting exposure for video is different than stills. First you choose your resolution and frame rate, typically 24 or 30 FPS (and do not change these settings throughout the event). Then you select your shutter speed, which is typically 1/(2*FPS), so for 30FPS you would generally choose a shutter speed of 1/60. You can go with a faster shutter speed but this can lead to jerky looking motion and requires more light. Next you choose your aperture based on how much depth-of-field you want, and finally set your ISO to get properly exposed frames at the selected shutter speed and aperture (using neutral density filters or adding light if needed). These settings must all be configured before you start shooting, and only the aperture can be varied while recording. You will have to pay attention to exposure and color balance as lighting conditions change.
  7. You might need auxiliary lighting, such as a 200-300 LED light panel. Because you'll be using this inside it should be tungsten (3200K) or bi-color to balance better with indoor lighting, and should have a CRI rating of at least 85 (89+ recommended). And either a second person to hold the light or some kind of bracket to adjust it over the camera so it's not dead-on to the subject, causing flat lighting and red eye.
  8. Then there's audio. The camera's built-in mic will be worthless in this environment (pretty much in any environment) unless all you want is the noise of the crowd and the sound of your breathing and making camera adjustments. A decent shotgun mic such as the Rode Videomic will be better, and can be mounted on the camera (though you should use some kind of bracket to move it up and away from the lens to minimize noise) and plugged-in to the camera mic input. Best would be to use the shotgun mic on-camera plus putting wireless lav mics on the bride and groom that go to a separate digital audio recorder, with a separate recorder plugged in to the DJ console. You will have to monitor and adjust the audio recording levels throughout the event as well.
  9. You will need stabilization for the camera. The camera/lens IS will only take you so far. A tripod is one solution but is clumsy to drag around; but if you do use a tripod you need one that will allow you to pan and tilt the camera smoothly. A ball head is not ideal for video. A quality pan/tilt head would be better, and a quality fluid head the best. The tripod will need some decent height as well or your video will appear to be from a child's perspective. Most videographers use some kind of shoulder or chest stabilization rig and practice smooth movement.
  10. Don't forget extra batteries and fast SD cards for cameras, recorders, mics and lights.

When shooting get close to your subject. Avoid excessive panning and zooming during the clip. Shoot stuff that is interesting and shows action; the still photographer will take care of the static shots and formals (although some clips of the formals as they get setup can be interesting). You can always add stills to the video when editing. Most of the weddings I've attended has the videographer go around and ask guests to record a personal message to the B&G. Concentrate on highlights such as the processional, ring exchange, kiss, receiving line, introduction, toast, cake cutting/feeding, garter, bouquet, dancing. For some of this stuff you may well find your 100-400 a benefit, although the narrow aperture will cause some challenges with available light. Of course you're going to have a conflict on how to film yourself walking your daughter up the aisle and giving her away, daddy's dance, and the potential emotional moments of you watching the ceremony and sharing the experience with your wife and others.

I suggest talking to the hired photographer first and let him know what you've been asked to do, and ask for any advice or ground rules he can offer to minimize and interference between your and his needs. For example, your video light or even presence can interfere with his shots, and you will often be contending for position for highlight activities.

Filming the day is less than half the work. I spend at least 10 minutes editing each finished minute of video. My daughter does video post for a living and is much faster, but it still takes her at least an hour to edit a 15 minute video (and that's with the someone else pre-selecting which clips will be used). You might consider farming out the post production; there are many people from countries in Asia and Southern Asia who offer editing services and affordable rates. A big problem is deciding what to include, what to leave out and how to cut the clips to wind up with a nice result that isn't too long. Breaking the day into several different finished videos helps, but that also means creating chapters and a menu on the DVD, more work.

Based on the questions you've asked you need to spend a lot of time practicing and experimenting before the wedding, and probably a few hundred more dollars of gear to buy to do it well. Maybe it's time to take an honest, objective look at what you want to accomplish and why. You've already spent around $1k for a new lens, then you'll spend at least another $150 for a shotgun mic, possibly more for a suitable tripod or stabilizing rig, plus whatever software you buy. You might find that the same amount of money could have better been spent in engaging the photographer to also have a videographer cover the wedding. Then you could simply bring a good point-and-shoot to grab some stills and video as the opportunity presents itself, and otherwise attend to your role as father of the bride and enjoy the day.

Thank you bumpintheroad that is a lot of help and a lot of points that I did not know about, all the snags that can...and will come up. I/we do not expect a professional work of art just a reasonable home movie, you know where you can identify people in it, no swinging from this point to that point just a little better than the average home movie. I am not in competition with the paid photog. I will talk to him and do my utmost to keep out of his way. I will not be walking the bride down the isle (don't ask).

As with all family dynamics there are things the paid photog will not know about, like aunt Mary has not talked to such and such a person for years and there they are on the dance floor. All the bridesmaids are nurses and every one of them could be a model but being nurses I know they will be letting there hair down, there will be some laughs from that crowed.

I think I will look for someone to put it all together as editing video is not something I want to get into and I will need a NTSC and PAL copy.

Thanks again for the help/pointers.

David




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idkdc
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Sep 15, 2015 09:51 |  #25

Dslr video is 1. Not fun (manual focus, poor quality compression, no but in nd filters) and 2. Requires much more money and gear, i.e. Fluid head, slider, LaSalle and shotgun microphone, external audio field recorder). I suggest you rent a C100 Mark Ii with dual pixel Af, a decent shotgun microphone, and a decent set of sticks (tripod) and fluid head at the very least. That way you can get your daughter's footage and still enjoy some of the wedding in some form. 7d shoots really God awful footage for your grandchildren to look at.

This is besides hiring someone else, although honestly, if money is not a factor and you have access to a decent cinematographer, I would go that route. That being said, if you do decide to film it yourself, DSLR'S are the worst tools for documentary footage. They are better for staged environments. This is my experience working with Sundance and PBS documentary film makers.

A wedding is closer to documentary than Hollywood. Treat it as such.


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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The Uwharrie Mts, NC
Sep 15, 2015 09:56 |  #26

cdiver2 wrote in post #17707668 (external link)
I have acquired a 24-105 lens.

f/4 is tough during evening events.

I'm usually using my sig 35 around 2.8 and will go to 3.5 on the rare occasion I use fill flash.

Otherwise, with the 24-104 I hope to use on camera bounce flash, crank the ISO, and bring plenty of extra batteries.


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Formerly he's gone before apostrophe-gate | Not in gear database: Canon 70-210 3.5-4.5, Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 2x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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The Uwharrie Mts, NC
Sep 15, 2015 10:02 |  #27

idkdc wrote in post #17708371 (external link)
Dslr video is 1. Not fun (manual focus, poor quality compression, no but in nd filters) and 2. Requires much more money and gear, i.e. Fluid head, slider, LaSalle and shotgun microphone, external audio field recorder). I suggest you rent a C100 Mark Ii with dual pixel Af, a decent shotgun microphone, and a decent set of sticks (tripod) and fluid head at the very least. That way you can get your daughter's footage and still enjoy some of the wedding in some form. 7d shoots really God awful footage for your grandchildren to look at.

This is besides hiring someone else, although honestly, if money is not a factor and you have access to a decent cinematographer, I would go that route. That being said, if you do decide to film it yourself, DSLR'S are the worst tools for documentary footage. They are better for staged environments. This is my experience working with Sundance and PBS documentary film makers.

A wedding is closer to documentary than Hollywood. Treat it as such.

excellent advice. I didn't comment on the video portion because i only do a tiny bit. Shen I do, i am fully aware that I will have some OOF moments even in a staged environment. I like to have one camera on a tripod fixed on the scene and use the other hand held, then cobble the two together in post.

video is hard.


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Formerly he's gone before apostrophe-gate | Not in gear database: Canon 70-210 3.5-4.5, Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 2x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

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don1163
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Sep 15, 2015 18:14 |  #28

I can only begin to imagine what it will look like with you in the front row , tripod set up , fiddling about with settings and trying to focus....while everyone behind you is trying to catch a glimpse of the happy couple....
Hire a professional to do a video for you, leave your camera at home and enjoy the day with your family.....


1DX, 500L f4, 70-200L f2.8II, 100L f2.8 macro ,16-35 f4, 1.4xIII, Metz 64-AF1

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wallstreetoneil
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Toronto Canada
Sep 15, 2015 18:46 |  #29

I shoot weddings for a living as a photog. My daughter, 16, is getting into the family business, as a video person. She is an arts student in high school, has shot slightly less than 10 weddings for my wife a wedding officiant creating what I call wedding shorts, and she is already 10 million times better than me at video because she is crazy creative. When I look at what she creates I'm stunned. It is fun, fast, super creative - she doesn't even know half what she does but she knows Adobe Premier Pro inside and out but it is her creativeness and vision that creates what she wants.

I say the above because if you aren't doing the above, creating a wedding story and fun video that a young bride wants to see, then just put the camera on a tripod, hit record, and use whatever lens is required, auto ISO, F5.6 and be done with it. Creating a wedding video story is NOT for uncreative people without a vision - as a father I am not working on either of my daughter's big days for any price - even if they ask.

I recently got married for the second time and set up my A7Rii with a Canon 24-70 II F2.8 with Auto ISO, F5.6 and SS 125th and gave the camera to my brother in law and asked him to go crazy and take lots of pictures - BUT - if he gets in the way of the paid photog I would not be happy. He did an unbelieveable job, took 1000 pictures in 3 hours, and we got lots of pictures we shared on social media shortly after the wedding because of it.

If I were you, I would say to my daughter that you will do as she asked but have SOMEONE ELSE do it - i.e a cousin - reserve a seat for them in the front row and have them do it.

Be present in the moment when your daughter gets married - life is too short.


Hockey and wedding photographer. Favourite camera / lens combos: a 1DX II with a Tamron 45 1.8 VC, an A7Rii with a Canon 24-70F2.8L II, and a 5DSR with a Tamron 85 1.8 VC. Every lens I own I strongly recommend [Canon (35Lii, 100L Macro, 24-70F2.8ii, 70-200F2.8ii, 100-400Lii), Tamron (45 1.8, 85 1.8), Sigma 24-105]. If there are better lenses out there let me know because I haven't found them.

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bumpintheroad
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Sep 15, 2015 20:36 |  #30

Actually, given the skill level and expected final result, renting a Canon G30 or Sony CX900 would do the trick and be much easier to wrangle around than a C100.

In fact, just about any of the mid-level camcorders would do the trick. The OP doesn't need manual focus or large sensor. Image stabilization, decent zoom and low-light capability and touch-screen focus selection would do the trick.


-- Mark | Gear | Flickrexternal link | Picasaexternal link | Youtubeexternal link | Facebookexternal link | Image editing is okay

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