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FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera
Thread started 06 Jan 2016 (Wednesday) 21:02
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Nikon is Feeding Canon its lunch....and them some

 
umphotography
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Jan 20, 2016 14:11 |  #406

Gonz

Some of the reception venues are getting to be nightmares. Im at 8000 ISo at F/2.5 @1/30 with a flash at 1/32 to capture images. The dam camera can barely lock at times. I have been in so many churches where i could easily be shooting at 12500 in the ambient light. Its more for photojournalistic needs that it is for portrait needs. I fully understand techniques for what i do.

An extra stop would be heaven for many of us. Lets not kid each other. I have shot over 275 weddings now. Have a good understanding to what im doing. An extra stop would be really nice.


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gonzogolf
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Jan 20, 2016 14:14 |  #407

I never meant to imply you don't know what you are doing, simply that you might be focusing on the gravy and not the steak.




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umphotography
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Jan 20, 2016 14:22 |  #408

Maybe. The beta tester is someone I have followed. He Really knows what he is doing. One of the best at this. He was blown away. That says a lot.

Anxious to see what Mautner has to say about the D500

Nikon has some good things going on. I dont think canon will rest on its past accomplishments.


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idkdc
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Jan 20, 2016 14:49 |  #409

umphotography wrote in post #17866041 (external link)
Gonz

Some of the reception venues are getting to be nightmares. Im at 8000 ISo at F/2.5 @1/30 with a flash at 1/32 to capture images. The dam camera can barely lock at times. I have been in so many churches where i could easily be shooting at 12500 in the ambient light. Its more for photojournalistic needs that it is for portrait needs. I fully understand techniques for what i do.

An extra stop would be heaven for many of us. Lets not kid each other. I have shot over 275 weddings now. Have a good understanding to what im doing. An extra stop would be really nice.

You do know that lens generations also affect autofocus accuracy?


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TeamSpeed
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Jan 20, 2016 15:35 |  #410

gonzogolf wrote in post #17866047 (external link)
I never meant to imply you don't know what you are doing, simply that you might be focusing on the gravy and not the steak.

The last wedding I was at had Christmas light strings lighting up the pillars and then small tea candles on the tables for the reception. That was it. I used a flash where I could, but that was rough at best without completely blinding everyone, and provided I could even get focus on some of the folks milling around.

I was at 25600 a few times at that reception. The only way to do better would be a wide fast prime, so that I can have my DOF and lower ISOs, and I am not ready to add to my lenses a set of 2-3 fast primes beyond the 50 I already have.

Every time in the past 10 years or so, somebody would throw out a random ISO level and say, "we should never have to exceed that", yet we always find situations where we need better higher ISO. :)

I remember when people were saying we didn't need clean ISO 6400.


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LincsRP
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Jan 20, 2016 15:37 |  #411

umphotography wrote in post #17866041 (external link)
Gonz

Some of the reception venues are getting to be nightmares. Im at 8000 ISo at F/2.5 @1/30 with a flash at 1/32 to capture images. The dam camera can barely lock at times. I have been in so many churches where i could easily be shooting at 12500 in the ambient light. Its more for photojournalistic needs that it is for portrait needs. I fully understand techniques for what i do.

An extra stop would be heaven for many of us. Lets not kid each other. I have shot over 275 weddings now. Have a good understanding to what im doing. An extra stop would be really nice.

Had you purchased the 1DX Mike you would have had the extra stop. My 1DX shoots up to 51200 against your 25600 on the 5D3 without expansion with dual digic 5 processors against your single digic processor. Four years ago I had this capability. I don't suffer from lack of focus as the 1DX locks on in near darkness and some have reported the 5 series 'think about it' a bit sometimes as you have confirmed above.

Having frequently shot at 10,000 and 16,000 iso I can really say my Canon 1DX has been at the forefront of camera technology for the last four years and until Nikon actually bring the D5 out it still leads the pack. The Nikon D5 won't be in the price range you paid for the 5D3 and nor will the Canon incarnation when it comes out. So are you saying you'll stump up the extra cash which you said you didn't before and got at least one stop less than you needed (your comments above) ?

From what I'm reading you paid less because you thought the 5D3 was 'nearly' as good as the 1DX and got two bodies for the price of one 1DX. You probably then didn't think the iso through as surely you'd have thought about dark venues in future?

I know a lot of folk think the 1DX is an overkill for wedding work and I can assure anyone it's definately not! Apologies if this hurts/harms/infuriates 5D3 users but it's fact. Pay less and you get less, yes it hurts but, that's the way it goes.  :p


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umphotography
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Jan 20, 2016 16:03 |  #412

LincsRP wrote in post #17866128 (external link)
Had you purchased the 1DX Mike you would have had the extra stop. My 1DX shoots up to 51200 against your 25600 on the 5D3 without expansion with dual digic 5 processors against your single digic processor. Four years ago I had this capability. I don't suffer from lack of focus as the 1DX locks on in near darkness and some have reported the 5 series 'think about it' a bit sometimes as you have confirmed above.

Having frequently shot at 10,000 and 16,000 iso I can really say my Canon 1DX has been at the forefront of camera technology for the last four years and until Nikon actually bring the D5 out it still leads the pack. The Nikon D5 won't be in the price range you paid for the 5D3 and nor will the Canon incarnation when it comes out. So are you saying you'll stump up the extra cash which you said you didn't before and got at least one stop less than you needed (your comments above) ?

From what I'm reading you paid less because you thought the 5D3 was 'nearly' as good as the 1DX and got two bodies for the price of one 1DX. You probably then didn't think the iso through as surely you'd have thought about dark venues in future?

I know a lot of folk think the 1DX is an overkill for wedding work and I can assure anyone it's definately not! Apologies if this hurts/harms/infuriates 5D3 users but it's fact. Pay less and you get less, yes it hurts but, that's the way it goes.  :p

First I do not think the 1Dx is over kill for wedding work. I know many that use it and love it. It has a faster, more responsive, better over all AF system than the 5D3.......No Doubts about that

Actually you missed the part where I shot the 1Dx side by side against my 5D3 for 3 weddings. From my testing and use I found that the 1Dx files were good until 12500 ISO. After 12500 ISO I found that If you had to do any cropping at all, darks and shadows completely fell apart and at 100% and the file was useless to me.....Thats me

I tried a few 16000 shots and a few 25600 shots. I thought the results were horrible.......Note...​.This was one of the first versions to come out and I understand they had an update and people were reporting better ISO results.....but again, darks and shadows still fell apart on the files........so unless you got a shot that didnt require any cropping....you might be OK until you had to crop

From what I saw, the 1Dx files did not hold up as well as the D4s nor the sony sensors at higher ISo's for ISO and dark/shadow retention.........many 1Dx owners I know also reported the same and that is what I have seen on comparison images.

I agree with some of your assessment. the current 1Dx is very usable at 10,000 ISO. I even feel 12500 is a darn good file. I still feel 25600 is No where in the ballpark to the Sony Sensor......not even remotely close......and it cant touch this D5 release.

I would suggest you go back and look at the files in the link i provided and make some comparisons

Really glad your 1Dx is working great. I came very very close to pulling the trigger. Its a bloody steal right now at $4500.00. But the new sensor should be a big jump in the next 2-4 weeks


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Drum
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Jan 20, 2016 16:24 |  #413

umphotography wrote in post #17865989 (external link)

As was Pointed out many many pages of this thread ago.........
1. The new Nikon sensor may have a stop better ISO performance against two 2012 models
2. the Nikon may have 153 FP with 99 X type however only 55/35 are user selectable which when compared to the two 2012 models is not as good (plus the two 2012 models have dual X type FP which Nikon still is to implement)
3. A good set of super cheap Yongnuo 622-c's will help you out at -4ev
4 You would get several 600EX-RT for the price of your new Nikon
5 Canon will release an upgrade to the 1DX if it is only incremental the Nikon will be competitive, if it is major the Nikon D5 like the previous incarnations will only appeal to nikon shooters....




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LincsRP
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Jan 20, 2016 16:32 |  #414

umphotography wrote in post #17866148 (external link)
First I do not think the 1Dx is over kill for wedding work. I know many that use it and love it. It has a faster, more responsive, better over all AF system than the 5D3.......No Doubts about that

Actually you missed the part where I shot the 1Dx side by side against my 5D3 for 3 weddings. From my testing and use I found that the 1Dx files were good until 12500 ISO. After 12500 ISO I found that If you had to do any cropping at all, darks and shadows completely fell apart and at 100% and the file was useless to me.....Thats me

I tried a few 16000 shots and a few 25600 shots. I thought the results were horrible.......Note...​.This was one of the first versions to come out and I understand they had an update and people were reporting better ISO results.....but again, darks and shadows still fell apart on the files........so unless you got a shot that didnt require any cropping....you might be OK until you had to crop

From what I saw, the 1Dx files did not hold up as well as the D4s nor the sony sensors at higher ISo's for ISO and dark/shadow retention.........many 1Dx owners I know also reported the same and that is what I have seen on comparison images.

I agree with some of your assessment. the current 1Dx is very usable at 10,000 ISO. I even feel 12500 is a darn good file. I still feel 25600 is No where in the ballpark to the Sony Sensor......not even remotely close......and it cant touch this D5 release.

I would suggest you go back and look at the files in the link i provided and make some comparisons

Really glad your 1Dx is working great. I came very very close to pulling the trigger. Its a bloody steal right now at $4500.00. But the new sensor should be a big jump in the next 2-4 weeks

To be fair to you Mike, I will say the firmware upgrade did make the files much better at high iso's. Canon re-wrote part of their manual to cater for the firmware upgrade which included multiple fixes which I didn't really relate to straight away.

I will go back and look at those links as suggested and we can compare notes. I do love my 1DX but, i'm sure you've noticed that!


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Scooby_Doo
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Jan 20, 2016 16:35 |  #415

Drum wrote in post #17866165 (external link)
As was Pointed out many many pages of this thread ago.........
1. The new Nikon sensor may have a stop better ISO performance against two 2012 models

And that's the lastest versions?! It's 2016 now.




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TeamSpeed
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Jan 20, 2016 16:46 as a reply to Scooby_Doo's post |  #416

And again, as before, 153 af point is a great feature. It has nothing to do with what is user selectable, I suspect just having 20 selectable points spread across the frame is enough for a majority of shooters. The more system af points the better moving targets can be auto-tracked.

Also having a flash or remote that helps with af acquisition in low light doesn't help one iota if you are shooting Ai servo.

Having a system 4 years old at this point automatically means you are behind current technology, especially when competition is releasing bodies that are better.


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johnf3f
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Jan 20, 2016 16:53 as a reply to umphotography's post |  #417

As a 1DX user I agree with most of your statements below:

"From what I saw, the 1Dx files did not hold up as well as the D4s nor the sony sensors at higher ISo's for ISO and dark/shadow retention.........many 1Dx owners I know also reported the same and that is what I have seen on comparison images. I agree with some of your assessment. the current 1Dx is very usable at 10,000 ISO. I even feel 12500 is a darn good file. I still feel 25600 is No where in the ballpark to the Sony Sensor......not even remotely close......and it cant touch this D5 release"

The D4/D4s definitely have an advantage in high ISO noise performance - not huge but certainly demonstrable. None of us can really comment on the D5 as we haven't used it yet. Whilst there are some very encouraging "Test" images out there we will have to wait to see what reality brings - I am expecting the D5 to be very good indeed in this respect. Perhaps an example of what I am getting at is the results being obtained with the Canon 5DSr. From the initial reports and "Tests" I was expecting it to be wonderful at 800 and, maybe, 1600 ISO. However having recently seen (close-up) rather large prints taken at 6400 ISO I have had to revise my opinion of this camera! Far better at high ISO than the reports suggested. Of course it can (and usually does) go the other way as well so I think judgement on the D5 should be postponed for a while.

My main question is the AF performance of the D5 on Nikon lenses. Having directly compared the D4 series to my 1DX and Canon SuperTeles Nikon have a LOT of catching up to do here! All the extra AF points of the D5 are irrelevant if none of them can, at least equal, one of the AF points on the current 1DX. For my uses the Nikon D4 series (with Nikon SuperTeles) were a noticeable step down from Canon (note I don't have Mk2 SuperTeles) and a potentially better sensor is of no consolation if I am not getting fast/reliable enough focus in the first place. As I said, in a previous post, I hope Nikon have cracked the AF - Nikon shooters deserve it! Then if they revise/update a number of their lenses Canon may get worried. I hope Canon do get worried! It will be better for all of us!


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Pagman
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Jan 20, 2016 17:18 |  #418

Johnf3f above has made a very creditable point that i experienced and is valid - Canon make Superb AF sensor units and Nikon make superb low noise and high DR systems;-)a

P.


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umphotography
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Jan 20, 2016 18:27 |  #419

LincsRP wrote in post #17866176 (external link)
To be fair to you Mike, I will say the firmware upgrade did make the files much better at high iso's. Canon re-wrote part of their manual to cater for the firmware upgrade which included multiple fixes which I didn't really relate to straight away.

I will go back and look at those links as suggested and we can compare notes. I do love my 1DX but, i'm sure you've noticed that!

I have not had a 1Dx in my hands for a couple of years now. So I would really love to see some High ISO shots say at 16000 with a 100% crop to view. Would really be interesting to see what that update did.

From what I can see, I saw about a 1/2 to possible 3/4 stop better iSO performance BT the 5D3 and 1Dx on those initial releases. Dont know if that still holds up or not.

and Jognf3f...agree with what you have said

Honestly, if 16000 is clean and usable...thats a 1/2 stop over the current model and a full stop over the 5D3......Im probably staying put. If canon can get it on par with the Sony sensors then Nikon is back in the deep dog poop camp............usable 16000 would be great for canon


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Maureen ­ Souza
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Jan 20, 2016 19:57 |  #420

I shoot with two 5D3 bodies & I am still so happy with them I am not even looking at anything else. Nor am I interested. ;-)a


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