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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Macro Talk
Thread started 13 Apr 2016 (Wednesday) 07:46
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Killing insects for macro photography

 
Swiftlet
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Post has been edited over 1 year ago by Swiftlet.
Apr 17, 2016 07:59 |  #16

Dalantech wrote in post #17973872 (external link)
Because they look dead, and there's no challenge to it. Anyone can photograph a dead insect -no more difficult than shooting any other inanimate object.

They don't necessarily look dead, and whether they do or not, there is considerable challenge to it. The standards of illustration achievable are considerably higher than from a single frame at a small aperture. The latter hasn't moved on much since "everyone" was doing it with Kodachrome-X in the 1970's. It was harder back then, without wide dynamic range sensors, fast cameras with instant feedback, and post processing.
Check "Borne on the Wind", Dalton, published 41 years ago.

It's noticeable and not real pleasant to see a person again decrying the efforts and achievements of others, who are particularly good or skilled at something which that person, apparently, may not be.



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davholla
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Apr 18, 2016 03:21 |  #17

Dalantech wrote in post #17973872 (external link)
Because they look dead, and there's no challenge to it. Anyone can photograph a dead insect -no more difficult than shooting any other inanimate object.

I am not sure that is true, if you take the view it is dead therefore I am going to do a brilliant stack then it is a challenge.




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Dalantech
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Apr 18, 2016 03:41 |  #18

Swiftlet wrote in post #17974590 (external link)
It's noticeable and not real pleasant to see a person again decrying the efforts and achievements of others, who are particularly good or skilled at something which that person, apparently, may not be.

davholla wrote in post #17975795 (external link)
I am not sure that is true, if you take the view it is dead therefore I am going to do a brilliant stack then it is a challenge.

I've quoted you both since my answer is the same.

Focus stacking is just muscle memory and mechanics -no talent involved, and no more "special" than any of the techniques that I use. That's why I have a habit of not getting hung up on techniques cause anyone with enough time and patience can learn them. Focus stacking is unique because you can bypass the learning curve if your pockets are deep enough and just buy a microprocessor controlled focusing rail.

Anyone can take a photo of an insect. Anyone. But very few people are producing images that people want to save to their desktop as wallpaper or print large and hang on the wall.


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davholla
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Apr 18, 2016 03:57 |  #19

Dalantech wrote in post #17975803 (external link)
I've quoted you both since my answer is the same.

Focus stacking is just muscle memory and mechanics -no talent involved, and no more "special" than any of the techniques that I use. That's why I have a habit of not getting hung up on techniques cause anyone with enough time and patience can learn them. Focus stacking is unique because you can bypass the learning curve if your pockets are deep enough and just buy a microprocessor controlled focusing rail.

Anyone can take a photo of an insect. Anyone. But very few people are producing images that people want to save to their desktop as wallpaper or print large and hang on the wall.

Not anyone can take a good photo and a large percentage of good photos could be better which is why we have this board.
(Obviously the percentage is debatable as it depends on what is a good photo and what is not).




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Dalantech
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Apr 18, 2016 04:10 |  #20

davholla wrote in post #17975809 (external link)
Not anyone can take a good photo ...snip

That's what I meant -if it's good then people will save it to their desktop as wallpaper or print it and hang it on the wall.

Good photos are not defined by how an image is taken, or by what was used to take them, and that's why I don't get hung up on either of them.


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davholla
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Apr 18, 2016 04:21 |  #21

Dalantech wrote in post #17975819 (external link)
That's what I meant -if it's good then people will save it to their desktop as wallpaper or print it and hang it on the wall.

I didn't realize that was what you meant, sadly due to the lack of space and my wife's hatred of cluttering where I live I never print photos. If (unlikely) I won the London Zoo photo competition I still wouldn't.

Dalantech wrote in post #17975819 (external link)
Good photos are not defined by how an image is taken, or by what was used to take them, and that's why I don't get hung up on either of them.

I don't think anyone thinks that it is. However discussing trying x or y to see if it gets good results is the point of the board.
Personally I think good photos can be taken with or without photo stacking but as sometimes I HAVE to kill sawfly caterpillars, I was thinking about how to get better photos with them.




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Dalantech
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Post has been edited over 1 year ago by Dalantech.
Apr 18, 2016 05:22 |  #22

davholla wrote in post #17975826 (external link)
I don't think anyone thinks that it is.

Not wanting to argue, but a lot of the people who shoot macro are more concerned with what they are doing, and what they are doing it with, than what they can actually produce. Look no further than the fixation that some have with absolute image sharpness and the lengths that they go to get the little dots as well defined as possible, completely ignoring what those little dots represent...


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davholla
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Apr 18, 2016 05:29 |  #23

Dalantech wrote in post #17975849 (external link)
Not wanting to argue, but a lot of the people who shoot macro are more concerned with what they are doing, and what they are doing it with, than what they can actually produce. Look no further than the fixation that some have with absolute image sharpness and the lengths that the go to get the little dots as well defined as possible, completely ignoring what those little dots represent...

Possibly true, but I am not one of them. Sometimes things can be too sharp and too much detail though, like a 5x close up of something which does not need that degree of close up e.g a bumble bee leg.
(I have not seen that example so I use to avoid offending anyone).

My aims in macro photography are
1) To show the beauty and the details of the insect
2) To have decent composition
3) Ideally to show something that you cannot see with the naked eye like the simple eyes (not the compound eyes) of the wasp in this photo

IMAGE: https://farm1.staticflickr.com/767/23225445719_86c98c2582_n.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/Bomt​Ri] (external link)IMG_0047Wasp (external link) by davholla2002 (external link), on Flickr
4) Ideally to show behaviour such as feeding mating etc.



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Dalantech
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Apr 18, 2016 05:37 as a reply to davholla's post |  #24

All excellent goals 8-)

I'm trying to get people to see the critters as more than "just bugs" or pests. They are very important -that wasp in your photo kills a lot of harmful insects and feeds them to the larva in the nest. So it's natural pest control.


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davholla
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Apr 18, 2016 05:39 |  #25

Dalantech wrote in post #17975866 (external link)
All excellent goals 8-)

I'm trying to get people to see the critters as more than "just bugs" or pests. They are very important -that wasp in your photo kills a lot of harmful insects and feeds them to the larva in the nest. So it's natural pest control.

Thank you, I agree with you about trying to see people as more than just bugs or pests sadly I think it is very difficult but maybe little by little we can do so.




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Swiftlet
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Post has been last edited over 1 year ago by Swiftlet. 4 edits done in total.
Apr 19, 2016 22:59 |  #26

Focus stacking is just muscle memory and mechanics -no talent involved, and no more "special" than... me

If that's the extent of your knowledge, then you have much to discover. Have you tried much using say, more than 50, 200, 800, 1600 exposures? Sometimes it's needed, it's the only way. The first dozen or so I made using 1000+, went straight "in the bin" .
If you haven't tried it, saying it's easy makes you look silly.

Why so many threads - look, this one was about how to kill insects - have to turn to your comparison with what you do and how good you are, in the particular niche of photography you practice, I have no idea.

Not wanting to argue

Sure.

Everyone wants different things. There's no need to dive in and belittle other people's interests - or their ethics or the worthiness of their reasons for taking photographs compared with some moral stance you think is higher.
You're saying that if someone uses more equipment it's because he's obsessing over the equipment, could it not being able to portray something simpler equipment can't show? Is there any reason on God's earth why he shouldn't enjoy the technical challenge, or push the boundaries?



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Dalantech
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Post has been last edited over 1 year ago by Dalantech. 2 edits done in total.
Apr 20, 2016 02:46 |  #27

Swiftlet wrote in post #17977959 (external link)
...too much bitterness and negativity to respond to...


Alhabshi (external link) is one of the few people I follow on Deviant Art. I know he focus stacks, probably takes hundreds of frames for every image he creates, but he doesn't talk about his technique and to be honest it really doesn't matter anyway -his work is BRILLIANT! He even made the cover of the Arabic edition of National Geographic -but not just because he focus stacks... Edit: Anyone can shoot at his level. But I'd bet that he's spent as much, if not more, time working on his lighting than focus stacking. That's not marginalizing his efforts, but simply being realistic. He does have one special gift: Creativity. It's a trait that's sorely lacking in the macro discipline.

I find it fascinating that you give out advice on just about every subject but I haven't seen you post a single photo. Are you afraid that your work won't measure up to the quality that's available on this forum? You've seen my work and you continue to marginalize it -which is fine. I neither want nor need your approval. But I think you've hit a point where you've lost all credibility because for all any of us know you don't even own a camera...


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Swiftlet
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Post has been edited over 1 year ago by Swiftlet.
Apr 20, 2016 04:44 |  #28

Dalantech wrote in post #17978109 (external link)
Alhabshi (external link) is one of the few people I follow on Deviant Art. I know he focus stacks, probably takes hundreds of frames for every image he creates, but he doesn't talk about his technique and to be honest it really doesn't matter anyway -his work is BRILLIANT! He even made the cover of the Arabic edition of National Geographic -but not just because he focus stacks... Edit: Anyone can shoot at his level. But I'd bet that he's spent as much, if not more, time working on his lighting than focus stacking. That's not marginalizing his efforts, but simply being realistic. He does have one special gift: Creativity. It's a trait that's sorely lacking in the macro discipline.

I find it fascinating that you give out advice on just about every subject but I haven't seen you post a single photo. Are you afraid that your work won't measure up to the quality that's available on this forum? You've seen my work and you continue to marginalize it -which is fine. I neither want nor need your approval. But I think you've hit a point where you've lost all credibility because for all any of us know you don't even own a camera...

Maybe you're right, I've never ever seen a camera. Or maybe you're wrong and Swiftlet is one of the pseudonyms I use when I don't want people to judge me by my thousands of published images.
It makes no different to my, or anyone's right to dive into a multiple threads opining away on why someone's techniques, interests and aspirations aren't as worthy as others - which would in your case, mean yours.

How would anyone feel if somene who only works at 20x and above, or in dime photography from 20 feet away, or the far ultraviolet, or any other specific area of activity, habitually jumped into their threads giving his perspective, opinions, and declarations that his are better approaches?

Yousef, I have always found, will talk amiably about his techniques. He's a very respectful guy. Perhaps it's only because he feels I've helped him out, but I don't suppose for a moment that makes any difference.

Yes I sometimes give advice or pass on knowledge, if I happen to have been some ways down a road before.
I'm most responsive where someone has the facts wrong, as with effective apertures, if you remember?

What I don't do is decry and belittle others' work or techniques and smother it with extreme opinions which stray into arrogance. Those practices, often repeated, are what motivated my objections in this particular thread.

Pointing out that you work in quite a small area of the range of what gets called Macro today, surely is an objective comment?
Ok, suggesting it colors your judgment, is subjective, but boy it sure looks that way.

Time for bed.



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Dalantech
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Post has been edited over 1 year ago by Dalantech.
Apr 20, 2016 05:05 |  #29

Swiftlet wrote in post #17978140 (external link)
It makes no different to my, or anyone's right to dive into a multiple threads opining away on why someone's techniques, interests and aspirations aren't as worthy as others - which would in your case, mean yours.

But that's where your wrong, and I'm probably wasting my time trying to point this out: My techniques, the equipment that I use, my goals are only relevant to one person. Me. Never have I said that it's my way or the highway. Do I talk about my techniques, write tutorials, and deconstruct my images? Sure because I want to give back to the macro community, and when I first started shooting macro a decade ago there just wasn't much info out there. But I'll be the first to tell you to cherry pick from what you see people doing and develop your own style.

I'll also be the first to tell you that how you, or I, create images is irrelevant -it's only the final image that counts. I've never belittled anyone, but you can't say the same -look no further than the bitterness in everything that you've said about me...

I'm writing you off, and have long since ignored your advice in this section of the forum because I don't know if you can really apply anything that you seem to know. Neither can anyone else...


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Dalantech
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Apr 20, 2016 05:11 |  #30

Swiftlet wrote in post #17978140 (external link)
Maybe you're right, I've never ever seen a camera. Or maybe you're wrong and Swiftlet is one of the pseudonyms I use when I don't want people to judge me by my thousands of published images.

Or maybe you're Steb :)


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