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Thread started 20 Apr 2016 (Wednesday) 09:33
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80D - Does this have issues bouncing flash?

 
Bassat
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Apr 24, 2016 21:02 |  #16

DreDaze wrote in post #17983802 (external link)
i think he's just saying that best buy would most likely have an 80D...if you take your 430EX in there, and pop it on the in-store display camera you can get a slight feel on how it works...although i don't think the best buy near me has the 80D out, and the ceiling is so high that bouncing it would be rough regardless...

The BB stores in Indiana have walls, too. :)


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pinolero ­ newbie
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Apr 24, 2016 21:45 as a reply to post 17983796 |  #17

AHHH, sorry, I was a bit slow on the uptake.

I can imagine the monster of a flash that one would need to bounce flash at a typical best buy.

I'll have to monitor to see if anyone has issues with the 80D in the future.


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rvnomad
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Apr 25, 2016 09:17 as a reply to pinolero newbie's post |  #18

I did have the bounce flash issue with my 70D & Canon 550EX. Yesterday I took shots of family with my 80D and the new kit 18-135mm lens. I shot indoors and under an outdoor white patio roof, and they were all properly exposed without any compensation. It appears Canon got it right this time with 80D & bounce flash.

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Bassat
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Apr 25, 2016 09:31 |  #19

Thanks for posting those, Dan. My 70D would do OK with fast primes, but really struggled with the f/3.5-5.6 zooms.


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digital ­ paradise
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Apr 25, 2016 09:38 |  #20

Wilt wrote in post #17978788 (external link)
Yes, apparent evidence that Canon routinely assigns the new, inexperienced engineers to the flash engineering team, because Canon does not seem able to consistently get flash exposure right over the years, they keep screwing it up from time to time, and then fixing it, and then screwing something else up. when they added photosensor flash automation (which has existed for many decades) they could not imitate Metz flashes for accurate photosensor flash exposure, either.

I had a Metz 58AF-2 and it's legendary auto exposure mode did not disappoint. The light was cleaner than my 580 EX flashes that were on the yellow side. Lot's of conversations about Canon's auto mode from the techs got it wrong to it was on purpose to preserve highlights. They seemed to have transferred this to their new flagship, the 600 EX RT. Decades old simple technology.


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digital ­ paradise
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Apr 25, 2016 09:41 |  #21

AlanU wrote in post #17979325 (external link)
Have you tried "average" instead of "evaluative"??

I've set my 5d2's that way because shooting my bounced flash I had to use FEC 2+ or more to get the proper exposure. With the 5d2 set to "average" the camera decided to work in a predictive manner that I was use to......

Everything I have read from the flash veterans and experts say that Average is great for indoor shooting but not so good outdoors. Evaluative is better outdoors. Thought I'd throw that in.


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LincsRP
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Apr 25, 2016 09:58 |  #22

digital paradise wrote in post #17984292 (external link)
I had a Metz 58AF-2 and it's legendary auto exposure mode did not disappoint. The light was cleaner than my 580 EX flashes that were on the yellow side. Lot's of conversations about Canon's auto mode from the techs got it wrong to it was on purpose to preserve highlights. They seemed to have transferred this to their new flagship, the 600 EX RT. Decades old simple technology.


There's a couple of points that might be worth considering here: comments have been made on the slow zooms being worse for results - they maybe have been giving bad info on distance to subject that modern lenses do?

Second Canon bodies set white balance automatically useing flash unless set to 'flash' and can be confused by the subject. The Metz presumably doesn't use either of those two systems? Dunno.

The test I would do with a 70D (I don't own one) would be to see if manual focus throws the bounce off or returns the flash to it's proper performance then it's the lens distance info(possibly) and then try changing the body to 'flash' white balance to see if there's an auto white balance problem in the auto white balance mode.

My take on this is Canon bodies are too complex in their flash calculation and the flash units used on 1-series for instance are using different info that xxD or xxxD bodies.


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digital ­ paradise
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Apr 25, 2016 10:08 |  #23

LincsRP wrote in post #17984312 (external link)
There's a couple of points that might be worth considering here: comments have been made on the slow zooms being worse for results - they maybe have been giving bad info on distance to subject that modern lenses do?

Second Canon bodies set white balance automatically useing flash unless set to 'flash' and can be confused by the subject. The Metz presumably doesn't use either of those two systems? Dunno.

The test I would do with a 70D (I don't own one) would be to see if manual focus throws the bounce off or returns the flash to it's proper performance then it's the lens distance info(possibly) and then try changing the body to 'flash' white balance to see if there's an auto white balance problem in the auto white balance mode.

I asked the distance info question at Canon Forums and a Canon rep replied and I have read about this elsewhere. While Canon lenses do provide distance information it is only a verification and will not interfere with the primary exposure method. The pre flash and the reflected light from said pre flash. Also as soon as you tilt or rotate the head distance info is automatically disabled.


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AlanU
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Apr 25, 2016 10:24 |  #24

digital paradise wrote in post #17984298 (external link)
Everything I have read from the flash veterans and experts say that Average is great for indoor shooting but not so good outdoors. Evaluative is better outdoors. Thought I'd throw that in.

Thanks for the info.

My 5dmk2 seemed the most sensitive to my flash settings between "average" and "evaluative". I've left both my 5dmk2 and 5dmk3 at "average" with no surprises for my workflow.


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Wilt
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Apr 25, 2016 10:41 |  #25

rvnomad wrote in post #17984265 (external link)
I did have the bounce flash issue with my 70D & Canon 550EX. Yesterday I took shots of family with my 80D and the new kit 18-135mm lens. I shot indoors and under an outdoor white patio roof, and they were all properly exposed without any compensation. It appears Canon got it right this time with 80D & bounce flash.

I humbly beg to differ that your shots are NOT exposed properly. I took your first shot, imported it into Lightroom, made a virtual copy of your photo and manually adjusted Exposure by exactly +1.0EV. Side by side are the two versions...

IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/POTN%202013%20Post%20Mar1/70D%20flash%20exposure_zpslufitfeb.jpg

Now I will NOT state that "your 80D does have an issue with flash exposure" -- it probably does not, per your example -- as Caucasion skin is generally characterized as being 1.0EV or so brighter than an 18% grey card (subject to seasonal variation due to suntan vs. winter pallor), so metering with the face being so dominant in the frame will lead meters to underexpose in general -- regardless of use of flash bounce or not! But I did want to show your exposure if 1EV brighter than as-shot and posted by you; this is a common exposure error.

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BlakeC
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Apr 25, 2016 10:43 |  #26

I'm only posting this here because I thought of it on this thread....

Some, well...many... people don't respect photographers. And will say "its the camera" or "we just need someone with a camera to take pictures"
Things like this thread (and many others) point out something else. Being a photographer is obviously more than having a "pro camera" it's also knowing your gear, how it works, WHY it works, and the "work-arounds" to get it to do what you need.


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Wilt
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Apr 25, 2016 10:53 |  #27

LincsRP wrote in post #17984312 (external link)
There's a couple of points that might be worth considering here: comments have been made on the slow zooms being worse for results - they maybe have been giving bad info on distance to subject that modern lenses do?

Second Canon bodies set white balance automatically useing flash unless set to 'flash' and can be confused by the subject. The Metz presumably doesn't use either of those two systems? Dunno.

Distance is used only within the context of the metering looking at all focus zones 'at the same distance' as the zone of primary focus, to compare the response of each zone to the preflash, so it invalidates especially bright zones (those that have a mirror or shiny metal reflecting back an image of the flash itself to the meter). Otherwise, ETTL does NOT use flash distance. And when ceiling bounce is used, the Distance information is ignored entirely. Canon abandoned the direct use of flash distance after ATTL flopped.

Auto flash (Canon's 'External' mode and Metz legendary 'Auto' mode), simply makes use of the flash's own photosensor (and not the camera's) to measure light returning from the subject in real time, rather than using the preflash metering's predetermined output just before exposure is taken.

Canon gets flash exposure messed up at times (e.g. Canon 20D and 30D), even for direct ETTL...

  • POTN posts abound about cameras in those days (2002-2004) needing users to permanently dial in FEC +1EV in order to get shot simply to be as bright as an ambient-only exposure.
  • Later, with the 40D, ETTL would work properly even with FEC 0EV, and would work also for ceiling bounce, but could get it wrong if the flash were fired into a softbox.
  • Then the 580EXII and 600EX-RT both got it wrong, with as much as 2EV of flash UNDERexposure in the 'External' mode, although ETTL could get it right!
  • The claim (I have no direct experience with the 70D) was that ceiling bounce got it wrong, although direct ETTL got it right.



Verdict is out on the 80D until users start to complain.

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Apr 25, 2016 10:54 |  #28

AlanU wrote in post #17984331 (external link)
Thanks for the info.

My 5dmk2 seemed the most sensitive to my flash settings between "average" and "evaluative". I've left both my 5dmk2 and 5dmk3 at "average" with no surprises for my workflow.

I tried Average and I think it did better indoors but when in a hurry going in and out it is one more thing to remember so I just left it on Evaluative. I just have to chimp and FEC a little more.


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Apr 25, 2016 10:58 |  #29

BlakeC wrote in post #17984357 (external link)
I'm only posting this here because I thought of it on this thread....

Some, well...many... people don't respect photographers. And will say "its the camera" or "we just need someone with a camera to take pictures"
Things like this thread (and many others) point out something else. Being a photographer is obviously more than having a "pro camera" it's also knowing your gear, how it works, WHY it works, and the "work-arounds" to get it to do what you need.

When we eat at someones else's place I always say that was a delicious meal. You must have a really good oven.


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Wilt
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Apr 25, 2016 10:58 |  #30

digital paradise wrote in post #17984379 (external link)
I tried Average and I think it did better indoors but when in a hurry going in and out it is one more thing to remember so I just left it on Evaluative. I just have to chimp and FEC a little more.

The wisdom on that topic is that Evaluative flash metering is best for fill flash shot with ambient exposures in sufficient light (e.g. outdoors), but that Average flash metering is better when flash is the primary source of illumination in the scene.
I cannot corroborate or dispute this theory...in my tests I could see no difference in result!


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80D - Does this have issues bouncing flash?
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