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Thread started 17 May 2016 (Tuesday) 16:00
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60D to 7D Mark II - Question about IQ

 
chvvkumar
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Belmont, CA USA
May 17, 2016 16:00 |  #1

So, I feel like I have hit the limit on my beloved 60D when it comes to focus speed and bird photography. I understand AF is going to be quite a bit better but my question is specifically about keeping my expectations in check regarding IQ. I primarily shoot landscapes/night skies as well as wild-life.

I find ISO 3200 images barely acceptable on my 60D and try my best to keep ISOs below 1600. If any one has experience with both bodies, can you comment on ISO 3200 and 6400 noise on both cameras?

I plan on carrying over my 100-400 MK I, Tokina 11-16 II, 100L Macro and EF-S 15-85 to the 7D Mark II.

Thank you for your input!


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BigAl007
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Joined Dec 2010
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May 17, 2016 18:24 |  #2

Don't underexpose and you will be fine. The thing is that really applies to all DSLR's. The problem comes when in an attempt to avoid adding noise by raising the ISO you end up underexposing at a lower ISO, where you have to boost brightness digitally in post. Certainly for Canon if you only use the non-expanded ISO values (i.e. the whole stop values, not H1, H2 etc, or even Low) you will generally get better results from Exposing to the Right at a higher analogue gain than from digitally boosting an underexposed image in post.

Alan


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Snydremark
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Issaquah, WA USA
May 17, 2016 18:45 |  #3

I don't have 60D experience, but I had the 7D MkI, which shared the same sensor, if I recall correctly. As the previous poster said, be sure you're not UNDERexposing your shots and you'll be fine. I usually have to shoot in the 640 - 3200 range with the MkII, and I find things come out just fine, as long as I shoot to the right a bit the noise is totally manageable and can get fine pics. Here's a quick set that I knocked out for ISO 1600/3200/6400 as a lark when I first bought the MkII:

1600:

IMAGE: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3948/15721571046_f8960feaf0_b.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/pXga​kL] (external link)Mallard_1600-9373 (external link) by Eric (external link), on Flickr

3200:

IMAGE: https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5602/15745279715_191679d06f_b.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/pZmF​6V] (external link)Mallard_3200-9380 (external link) by Eric (external link), on Flickr

6400:

IMAGE: https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5612/15560117097_0a1a0f86cb_b.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/pGZE​GZ] (external link)Mallard_6400-9387 (external link) by Eric (external link), on Flickr

It was nice to have some cooperative birds, since that's mostly what I and my associates shoot; it was good to be able to compare on actual birds.

I don't even worry about ISO for most of my landscape shooting simply because I shoot those from a tripod, so you can run your shutter as long as necessary to get light without boosting ISO. And I only shoot night skies experimentally, so I don't even have a very fast UWA (EF-S 10-22).

- Eric S.: My Birds/Wildlife (external link) (7D MkII, Canon 10-22 f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105L f/4 IS, Canon 70-200L f/2.8 IS MkII, Canon 100-400L f/4.5-5.6 IS)
"The easiest way to improve your photos is to adjust the loose nut between the shutter release and the ground."

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DesolateMirror
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May 17, 2016 19:11 |  #4

Hmm sorry to make the choices harder, but you could also try a used 1DIV, it has a bigger sensor so you get less reach (1.3x crop vs 1.6x).

http://www.dxomark.com ...-1D-Mark-IV___977_663_629 (external link)

http://www.dpreview.co​m ..._eos60d&sortDir=asc​ending (external link)




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mikeinctown
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Cleveland, Ohio
May 17, 2016 19:28 |  #5

Check out a website called Froknowsphoto.com. In the Canon reviews he did one on the 7D2 and I believe that the hockey game he shot was at ISO 1600. (34 minute video) he talks about his experiences testing it out and goes over some of the newer features and how he liked or disliked them. There is also another long video that he did but I haven't watched that one yet. Also, I do believe he places the links to his RAW files on line as well so you can download and check them out for yourself. Oh, there is also a 5 minute video where he talks about the higher iso capabilities.


Canon EOS 1D X | Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM | Sigma 150-600mm F5-6.3 DG OS HSM | C |

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Copidosoma
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Joined Jul 2009
Edmonton AB, Canada
May 17, 2016 20:11 |  #6

7DII is fantastic for night sky work (aurora and milky way). I use it interchangeably with my 6D with only slightly noticeable differences.

Otherwise, it is a major step up from my 7D (same sensor as the 60D for the most part).


Gear: 7DII | 6D | Fuji X100s |Sigma 24A, 50A, 150-600C |24-105L |Samyang 14 2.8|Tamron 90mm f2.8 |and some other stuff
http://www.shutterstoc​k.com/g/copidosoma (external link)
https://500px.com/chri​s_kolaczan (external link)

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3jc
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May 17, 2016 21:22 |  #7

I went from 7D to a 7D mark II. I hated the 7D original but love the mark II.

ISO 16,000 7D mark II, EF 70-200 2.8L + 2X teleconverter @400mm

IMAGE: https://farm1.staticflickr.com/288/20416353295_f5912ced43_c.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/x789​xi] (external link)150807_byb_0021-1 (external link) by Jerry Chambers (external link), on Flickr



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chvvkumar
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Belmont, CA USA
May 17, 2016 21:55 |  #8

BigAl007 wrote in post #18010486 (external link)
Don't underexpose and you will be fine. The thing is that really applies to all DSLR's. The problem comes when in an attempt to avoid adding noise by raising the ISO you end up underexposing at a lower ISO, where you have to boost brightness digitally in post. Certainly for Canon if you only use the non-expanded ISO values (i.e. the whole stop values, not H1, H2 etc, or even Low) you will generally get better results from Exposing to the Right at a higher analogue gain than from digitally boosting an underexposed image in post.

Alan

Snydremark wrote in post #18010503 (external link)
I don't have 60D experience, but I had the 7D MkI, which shared the same sensor, if I recall correctly. As the previous poster said, be sure you're not UNDERexposing your shots and you'll be fine. I usually have to shoot in the 640 - 3200 range with the MkII, and I find things come out just fine, as long as I shoot to the right a bit the noise is totally manageable and can get fine pics. Here's a quick set that I knocked out for ISO 1600/3200/6400 as a lark when I first bought the MkII:

1600:
QUOTED IMAGE
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/pXga​kL] (external link)Mallard_1600-9373 (external link) by Eric (external link), on Flickr

3200:
QUOTED IMAGE
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/pZmF​6V] (external link)Mallard_3200-9380 (external link) by Eric (external link), on Flickr

6400:
QUOTED IMAGE
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/pGZE​GZ] (external link)Mallard_6400-9387 (external link) by Eric (external link), on Flickr

It was nice to have some cooperative birds, since that's mostly what I and my associates shoot; it was good to be able to compare on actual birds.

I don't even worry about ISO for most of my landscape shooting simply because I shoot those from a tripod, so you can run your shutter as long as necessary to get light without boosting ISO. And I only shoot night skies experimentally, so I don't even have a very fast UWA (EF-S 10-22).


Thank you! I try to keep in mind about ETTR but BIF is so fast and with so much light level change, it is kind of hard to change too much at once, especially with the frustrating AF on the 60D

DesolateMirror wrote in post #18010524 (external link)
Hmm sorry to make the choices harder, but you could also try a used 1DIV, it has a bigger sensor so you get less reach (1.3x crop vs 1.6x).

http://www.dxomark.com ...-1D-Mark-IV___977_663_629 (external link)

http://www.dpreview.co​m ..._eos60d&sortDir=asc​ending (external link)

I tend to not put too much weight on dxomark since they test the whole body+lens combo and their methodology doesn't tell the whole story. But, that is an interesting idea! Let me research more, thanks!


www.kumarchalla.com (external link)

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chvvkumar
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Belmont, CA USA
May 17, 2016 22:00 |  #9

mikeinctown wrote in post #18010547 (external link)
Check out a website called Froknowsphoto.com. In the Canon reviews he did one on the 7D2 and I believe that the hockey game he shot was at ISO 1600. (34 minute video) he talks about his experiences testing it out and goes over some of the newer features and how he liked or disliked them. There is also another long video that he did but I haven't watched that one yet. Also, I do believe he places the links to his RAW files on line as well so you can download and check them out for yourself. Oh, there is also a 5 minute video where he talks about the higher iso capabilities.

Thanks! I will check that out!

Copidosoma wrote in post #18010582 (external link)
7DII is fantastic for night sky work (aurora and milky way). I use it interchangeably with my 6D with only slightly noticeable differences.

Otherwise, it is a major step up from my 7D (same sensor as the 60D for the most part).

How do you find it vis-a-vis the 6D for night photography? I am leaning towards getting a 7d mark ii now and a 6d mark ii when it is released to cover both wildlife and landscape.

3jc wrote in post #18010644 (external link)
I went from 7D to a 7D mark II. I hated the 7D original but love the mark II.

ISO 16,000 7D mark II, EF 70-200 2.8L + 2X teleconverter @400mm

QUOTED IMAGE
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/x789​xi] (external link)150807_byb_0021-1 (external link) by Jerry Chambers (external link), on Flickr

Another good shot of the hummingbird! Anything specific why you did not like the first 7D? BTW this was my shot with the 60D and 100-400 Ver. 1

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3jc
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May 17, 2016 22:37 as a reply to chvvkumar's post |  #10

The noise was a major problem for me on the 7D original. Noise on the Mark II is much easier to deal with.




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Snydremark
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17,963 posts
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Issaquah, WA USA
May 17, 2016 23:21 |  #11

chvvkumar wrote in post #18010662 (external link)
Thank you! I try to keep in mind about ETTR but BIF is so fast and with so much light level change, it is kind of hard to change too much at once, especially with the frustrating AF on the 60D

...

Unless you're shooting something that is moving in and out of shade a ton, it doesn't *really* change all that much; which is why I tend to stick with Manual metering. That way, the camera isn't constantly fluctuating your exposure when there's no actual need to. As long as the light falling on your subject is the same, relative amount/intensity, the lightness/darkness of the background isn't really relevant to the exposure even if the camera tries to believe that it is. And, besides, you're going to want the better lit images in the end, anyway. So, shoot with your settings to capture *those* moments and don't fret the "transitional" moments. Then ETTR is much easier to add to your work flow.

A lot of it is recognizing and choosing conditions that will be conducive to your shooting and only continuing with the actual shoot if a) those conditions are met or b) with the full understanding that you're simply practicing for better conditions.


- Eric S.: My Birds/Wildlife (external link) (7D MkII, Canon 10-22 f/3.5-4.5, Canon 24-105L f/4 IS, Canon 70-200L f/2.8 IS MkII, Canon 100-400L f/4.5-5.6 IS)
"The easiest way to improve your photos is to adjust the loose nut between the shutter release and the ground."

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mwsilver
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Joined Oct 2011
Central New Jersey
May 18, 2016 01:29 |  #12

chvvkumar wrote in post #18010354 (external link)
So, I feel like I have hit the limit on my beloved 60D when it comes to focus speed and bird photography. I understand AF is going to be quite a bit better but my question is specifically about keeping my expectations in check regarding IQ. I primarily shoot landscapes/night skies as well as wild-life.

I find ISO 3200 images barely acceptable on my 60D and try my best to keep ISOs below 1600. If any one has experience with both bodies, can you comment on ISO 3200 and 6400 noise on both cameras?

I plan on carrying over my 100-400 MK I, Tokina 11-16 II, 100L Macro and EF-S 15-85 to the 7D Mark II.

Thank you for your input!

The 7D2 ISO will get you between 1 and 1.5 stops additional over the 60D. 6400 is the new 3200 :-)


Mark
Canon 7D II, 60D, T3i, T2i, Sigma 18-35 f/1.8, and 30 f/1.4. Canon EF 70-200 L f/4 IS, EF 35 f/2 IS, EFs 10-18 STM, EFs 15-85, EFs 18-200, EF 50 f/1.8 STM. Tamron 18-270 PZD, B+W MRC CPL, Canon 320EX, Vanguard Alta Pro 254CT & SBH 250 head. RODE Stereo Videomic Pro, Lightroom 6, Elements 15

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mccamli
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Perth, WA
May 18, 2016 09:05 |  #13

I think it will all depend upon how good your copy of the 60D is. I went from the 7D to the 7DII and noticed a significant difference. There's much less noise, I don't need to ETTR all the time. Not only is there much less noise but it's much nicer noise, it's easy to clean up and there's no banding.

It also focuses much more consistently than my 7D so that helps improve the image quality too. You can also MFA the 7DII which may make a significant difference over the 60D if your combo is just a little off.

Having said that, there are some really good copies of the 60D and 7D out there.


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05Xrunner
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Pittsburgh PA
Post has been edited over 1 year ago by 05Xrunner.
May 18, 2016 09:21 |  #14

the 7DII high iso is pretty good.
I had 3 original 7D never liked them and always hated the high ISO on it never wanted to go above ISO 1600
I recently got rid of my 1D3 and got a 7DII and with the 1D3 i never thought twice shooting up to ISO 3200 6400 on it was ok. but the 7DII I have no issues letting it go up to 6400 to get the shot. it cleans up nice and is so much nicer then the original 7D. Never really liked much about that camera soft images, average high ISO and noise at low ISO

One thing I am not sure how strong of an AA filter wa used on the 60D. the original 7D had a really strong one and images never had a super sharp look to them. The 7DII while not as bad still seems to have a strong AA filter on it as pixel peeping there is still some evidence of it


My gear
Canon 7D Mark II, Canon 35 f2 IS, Sigma 50 1.4 EX, Canon 100mm f2, Sigma 17-50 2.8OS, Tamron 70-200 2.8 G2, Sigma 150-600 C, Shanny SN600C flash, Tascam DR-05 v2
Fuji X-T1, Fuji 18-55 2.8-4 OIS, Minolta 50mm 1.7 MD, Vivitar 28mm 2.8 MC, 135mm 2.8 MD

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Copidosoma
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Joined Jul 2009
Edmonton AB, Canada
Post has been edited over 1 year ago by Copidosoma.
May 18, 2016 10:26 as a reply to chvvkumar's post |  #15

there is a good article out there about the 7DII being one of the best if not the best sensor for astrophotography due to extremely low read noise.

edit: http://www.clarkvision​.com ...ws/evaluation-canon-7dii/ (external link)

I don't have comparison shots but in all honesty I'd grab either interchangably for astro work. Of course, you would need fast wide lenses for the aps-c sensor but they are available.


Gear: 7DII | 6D | Fuji X100s |Sigma 24A, 50A, 150-600C |24-105L |Samyang 14 2.8|Tamron 90mm f2.8 |and some other stuff
http://www.shutterstoc​k.com/g/copidosoma (external link)
https://500px.com/chri​s_kolaczan (external link)

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60D to 7D Mark II - Question about IQ
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