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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing
Thread started 11 Mar 2017 (Saturday) 15:18
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WHERE DO I START ???????

 
Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
That's my line!
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Joined Jun 2011
The Uwharrie Mts, NC
Mar 12, 2017 07:45 as a reply to post 18298653 |  #16

St Bernard did say "easiest to learn".

And like I said, focusing on a subset of tools that are strictly for post processing (not cataloging) is an easier task for someone with no experience.

I use a variety of tools and use different workflows for different type projects. If St. B has an existing system of organizing his photos, dovetailing that into a new system might not be a simple task, and definitely adds to the list of things to learn.

Processing a group of fifty images is different than processing a few choice images. For someone with zero experience I would suggest starting with only your best images ... shooting raw plus jpg and using the JPG to decide what images you want to open in RAW. That will also give a baseline to judge one's work. If your raw images are not as good as your JPG, there is clearly more work/learning to do.

While processing raw images allows for unlimited starts and restarts, I see plenty of benefits to focusing on learning one thing at a time. The stated goal is to learn post processing, not learn to organize and output thousands of images in a variety of formats.

I process many, many, images that never enter my chosen cataloging software. I find the extra step of entering them into the system then having piles of single images to work around to be a pain in the neck and waste of time.

Besides, Photoshop Elements allows RAW post processing and no monthly subscription. Everything that is learned in either ACR or Elements seamlessly transfers to their more advanced programs as the users knowledge and needs grow.


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Formerly he's gone before apostrophe-gate | Not in gear database: Canon 70-210 3.5-4.5, Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 2x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

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tonylong
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Mar 12, 2017 09:05 |  #17

One thing to bear in mind is that the Lightroom Help "offering is really quite effective. If you step through it, it does a quite good job of explaining things, and also includes online links to "stuff"!

In practive, I'd suggest you start Simple, working your way through some basic beginning tutorials, and someone mentioned Scott Kelby books, which I was a longtime "fan" of -- his Lightroom "Introduction" did a very nice job of stepping you through the basics!

Seriously, to me Lightroom has been my "Raw workflow interface/manager for a bunch of years...

If you do go with Lightroom there are plenty of plug-ins and alternative "paths", here in POTN you will see them pop up frequently! And, POTN is a great resource for wading into things, including the Lightroom Sticky her in the "RAW, Post Processing and Printing" forum section!

There are reasons why LR has become the "default" interface for the Raw workflow for many (likely most) of us here in POTN, so yeah, you'll see various opinions and viewpoints expressed, just keep your eyes and ears open!  :p


Tony
Two Canon cameras (5DC, 30D), three Canon lenses (24-105, 100-400, 100mm macro)
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Wildlife project pics hereexternal link, Biking Photog shoots hereexternal link, "Suburbia" project hereexternal link! Mount St. Helens, Mount Hood pics hereexternal link

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Tom ­ Reichner
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Post has been last edited 9 months ago by Tom Reichner. 2 edits done in total.
Mar 12, 2017 19:57 |  #18

St Bernard wrote in post #18298256 (external link)
Being totally green to POST processing what will be the easiest learning processing program to learn.?

.
I think that Apple's program "Photos" will be the easiest for you to learn. "Photos" replaced iPhoto a couple years ago, and the two programs are extremely similar.

The only program I use for my post-processing is "Photos", and it is sufficient for most of my editing needs. It is a RAW converter, so you can shoot RAW and still take advantage of the easy-to-learn editing adjustments.

The downside is that it is an Apple program, which I do not believe will run on any Windows-based operating system. So, unless you have an Apple device, you will probably not be able to use this wonderfully easy, simple program.

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18298683 (external link)
St Bernard did say "easiest to learn".

Yes, he sure did! I took him at his literal word, and I believe that my answer truly does suggest the photo editing program that is the easiest to learn. I have tried Lightroom many times, and it is much, much, much more difficult to learn than either iPhoto or Photos.

I honestly don't believe that there is any photo editing program in the entire world that is easier to learn than either Photos or iPhoto.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "peace of mind", NOT "piece of mind".

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blulight
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Mar 15, 2017 08:14 as a reply to post 18298258 |  #19

but doesn't Lightroom and Photoshop cost a monthly fee?




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digital ­ paradise
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Mar 15, 2017 08:26 |  #20

You can purchase standalone LR. You should be able to buy a licensed version of CS6 from someone if you feel you need it. Check out Ebay. Licences are transferable and you can use the free DNG converter for newer cameras. Or there is always PS Elements which is a stand alone as well.

I use stand alone LR 6.9 that will open the newest camera's RAW files. In LR I can either use the "Edit in PS command" to transfer it there or if I want to go directly into PS I use the DNG converter. I also use Canon's DPP.


Image Editing OK

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digital ­ paradise
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Mar 15, 2017 08:35 |  #21

A heads up. It is probably easier to buy plutonium than it is to find the area for stand alone LR. Adobe makes it difficult to find it because they keep pushing the subscription. If anyone wants to buy it just ask here. People have direct links to that page.


Image Editing OK

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Perfectly ­ Frank
I'm too sexy for my lens
Joined Oct 2010
Apr 01, 2017 03:24 |  #22

Why not get started with DPP? It's free and easy to use. It might be all you need.


My flickr albums (external link)
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drmaxx
Senior Member
Joined Jul 2010
Apr 01, 2017 07:11 |  #23

Perfectly Frank wrote in post #18316400 (external link)
Why not get started with DPP? It's free and easy to use. It might be all you need.

This is excellent advice - as you did not state why you want to work with raw files. Do you want to go down the pixel manipulation route (Photoshop, Gimp, ...) or global improvements (DPP, LR, ...)? If you don't know, then start with something easy like dpp until the bug is biting you.


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tonylong
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Apr 01, 2017 07:57 |  #24

I haven't used the newer version(s) of DPP, and don't know about any updated improvements and/or features in version 4+...

Anyway, I for one have been a steady proponent for using DPP when "getting started", particularly with Raw shooting/processing. DPP gives you a real "look" at how Raw compares to your in-camera/out-of-camera jpegs and the settings that affect how those jpegs come out, and then a "glimpse" of what you may get with a Raw "starting point"!

But then, I jumped into Photoshop with its Raw proccessing "engine" (Adobe Camera Raw), and the amazing tools that are available in Photoshop to work on the "pixel editing level, and Photoshop Elements has inherited a lot of those tools, and is, by the way, an easy app to "get started with compared to the "standard" Photoshop. Photoshop Elements has, by the way a "toned down" version of Adobe Camera Raw, which includes the "Basic" controls, and you can actually get a lot done!

But then, after spending the time and money to get and learn Photoshop, then Adobe announced that they were preparing a new software app aimed specifically at "serious" photographers, and particularly at those of us who were dedicated to shooting and developing Raw images, and then this new app had a "special distinction", which was for those of us who had collected large "libraries, tens of thousands of digital photos, all of which were "parked on our computer systems, and had us sitting there scratching our heads, wondering how the heck do we manage those thousands of images?

And that was the situation Adobe tackled when designing and developing Lightroom. The aim was for "serious" photogs to have something that would not only do state-of-the-art work with their Raw images as well as other image format, and then to give us tools to "manage" and "organize all those dang photos and effective ways for us to get those photos "out" and put them to use!

I will say in an aside, though:

As I waded into my photography and learning how to work with all that stuff, both in digital photography, and then the many results of scanning my old photos, and using "modern" software to work with those images, especially tiff files that my scanner put out!

But in particular, from those early days, I set myself out to read, read, read! Any book(s) I could find, like "getting started in Photoshop" books, and then as Lightroom got started with its Beta version in 2006, well, I grabbed a good "Introduction" by Scott Kelby, and yeah, paging through all the dang books I could get my hands on truly HELPED me to get things started and underway!

And one other significant thing, not just books, bu then, using the Help feature in your software is really a useful thing to get a handle on! This by the way includes Lightroom, because it really does have some very good Help stuff, take some time just to peruse the contents and such and you may be a bit impressed!

Of course, that is all assuming that you don't become an active "User" of the many online resources, YouTube, or say the online tutorials that are available and that have earned some great recommendations!

And, hey, if you have any questions or issues as you wade through this stuff, well, ASK AWAY, POTN has been great for stuff like that! And, speaking of online resources there are other forums dedicated to users, an example is that Adobe has a large Users forum for both Photoshop and Lightroom, it's active and has been a valuable resource over the years!

So, Success to you!!!


Tony
Two Canon cameras (5DC, 30D), three Canon lenses (24-105, 100-400, 100mm macro)
Tony Long Photos on PBaseexternal link
Wildlife project pics hereexternal link, Biking Photog shoots hereexternal link, "Suburbia" project hereexternal link! Mount St. Helens, Mount Hood pics hereexternal link

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NateD
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Apr 01, 2017 08:33 |  #25

https://www.damiensymo​nds.net/trainingraw.ht​ml (external link)

I took this class after watching a bunch of tutorials on YouTube. It wasn't until I took this class that I actually had a comprehensive understanding of why I was doing what I was doing with the sliders. Before that it was just a lot of copying and guessing. I highly recommend any Damien Symonds classes. He also has a great forum where you can get support and questions answered while you're going through the class.


Just trying to be better than I was yesterday.

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Perfectly ­ Frank
I'm too sexy for my lens
Joined Oct 2010
Apr 01, 2017 23:30 |  #26

This is an interesting thread, but I need some clarification about PS...about the work flow...
Correct me if I'm wrong.

First, the raw image from my camera will go to the DNG converter, which makes it into a raw file that PS can use.
In other words: camera raw -->DNG-->Adobe raw. So far so good?

Then the Adobe raw is sent to Adobe Camera Raw, a program that allows the user to edit the raw file: contrast, sharpness, crop, etc.
Does this program also convert the image to jpeg?

Am I on the right track, or missing something?


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My Best Aviation Photos (external link)

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tzalman
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Post has been last edited 8 months ago by tzalman. 5 edits done in total.
Apr 02, 2017 03:13 |  #27

Adobe Camera Raw is not a standalone program; it is a plugin within PS - an arrangement that allowed it to receive regular updates with new camera and lens support without the much larger PS application having to be downloaded again.

This is the workflow, if two conditions apply:

1. Your PS is Photo Shop Creative Suite 6 (the last PSCS, no longer sold by Adobe) or older.
2. Your camera is newer (in terms of date of release) than the last update of the Adobe Camera Raw plugin contained within your version of PSCS.
For instance, if you have PSCS 6 which received at roughly three month intervals updates to ACR until July 29, 2015 (ACR 9.1.1), but you have an 80D which was released in Feb., 2016. Or you have PSCS 5 which had its last update to ACR 6.7 in May 2012 and a camera newer than that.

Raw file from camera > DNG Converter; DNG file > PS. PS will automatically open the DNG file in its ACR plugin (because it is still a raw data file, not a color image file), in which it is immediately converted to a color image upon which you can do a variety of both global and local (masked) edits to the image. When you are finished, you do "Open Image" which opens the edited color image version in the main body of PS while the DNG file remains unchanged other than the editing done by ACR being recorded in its metadata. In PS the image is a rasterized bitmap which is held in memory and you can do further editing or immediately save the image to disc in one of the color image formats - jpg, tiff, psd, etc.

If your camera's Raw is supported by the version of ACR you have, the initial step of converting it to DNG is optional and usually considered unnecessary. Otherwise, the workflow is the same, except that the record of the ACR processing is recorded externally in an xmp side-file.

If you are subscribed to PSCC (Photo Shop Creative Cloud), you will be eligible for continuing updates to both ACR and to PS itself, so your camera will be supported from the next update after its issue.


Elie / אלי

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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
That's my line!
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The Uwharrie Mts, NC
Post has been edited 8 months ago by Left Handed Brisket.
Apr 02, 2017 06:16 |  #28

edit: redundant post, didn't see tzalman's post.

need.
more.
coffee.

Perfectly Frank wrote in post #18317193 (external link)
This is an interesting thread, but I need some clarification about PS...about the work flow...
Correct me if I'm wrong.

First, the raw image from my camera will go to the DNG converter, which makes it into a raw file that PS can use.
In other words: camera raw -->DNG-->Adobe raw. So far so good?

Then the Adobe raw is sent to Adobe Camera Raw, a program that allows the user to edit the raw file: contrast, sharpness, crop, etc.
Does this program also convert the image to jpeg?

Am I on the right track, or missing something?

the only time you need to convert to DNG is when your system is unable to convert the camera raw file on its own. As an example, when you are using an older version of the creative suite or photoshop and it's built in converter is "out of date"

basically, the Adobe DNG converter is more likely to support newer camera files on older systems ... if your computer and software are up to date, there is no need to convert to DNG.


so, once in ACR you input whatever conversion settings you want and then click "open" ... the file then opens in photoshop where you must save it as a file type (PSD, JPG, TIF) other than raw (Canon=CR2 or Nikon=NEF).

There is a photoshop RAW but i don't think it offers any benefit since after conversion the original raw is in tact and unedited.


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Formerly he's gone before apostrophe-gate | Not in gear database: Canon 70-210 3.5-4.5, Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 2x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

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BigAl007
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Repps cum Bastwick, Gt Yarmouth, Norfolk, UK.
Apr 02, 2017 08:21 |  #29

The two posts above are completely correct, but to neglect one further option, which could have slightly muddied the water, so are probably better left for a follow up post anyway; and is caused by Adobe's desire to create as many different options for workflow as you might need.

Once you are in ACR and you have finished applying your changes, you actually have a couple of options available as your next step. You can as already mentioned open the image into the full PS edit window as a rasterized RGB bitmap, which after any additional editing can be saved in any of the myriad of file types supported by PS. This is done using the Open button, and as well as opening the file it also writes the changes you made to the saved metadata of the file, either directly to a DNG file, or to an associated xmp file for other proprietary RAW file types. There are three other buttons too, one closes the image without saving the changes to the image metadata (Cancel). The other (Done) closes the image and saves the metadata, both useful functions if you want to stop the process at the point before you have finished working in ACR.

The third button is Save Image..., and in this context is probably misnamed, I think it would be better named Convert, or Convert & Save. If you use this button the image is saved to any of the PS compatible RGB raster file formats. This is exactly what you would get if you used Open, and then immediately ran the Save in PS. It also at the same time will write the metadata to the relevant location for the file type.

When dealing with individual images the difference between using Open and Save Image are quite small, you save a little time, as you don't have to wait while the image is rasterized and opened in PS. The real benefit is where you are batch processing images. If you have a series of say a couple of dozen images that were all taken under the same conditions, and that will all need the same ACR changes being made, you simply select all those images and open them to ACR together. In this case you will see the top image, but the edits will be applied to all the images together. If you are able to do all of your work in ACR, and these days it is powerful enough that very often that is the case, then using the Save Image you can then take all of those images and directly convert them to the final required format with a single click.

Oh and of course in the pursuit of completeness of process, where you can click to Open or Save Image, you can Alt-Click to do the same, without updating the saved image metadata. Quite useful if you want to make some changes to the image at the RAW stage, without wanting to save those edits at the level of the RAW file.

Alan


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Perfectly ­ Frank
I'm too sexy for my lens
Joined Oct 2010
Apr 02, 2017 12:10 |  #30

Thanks folks, I have a better understanding now.


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WHERE DO I START ???????
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