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FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands
Thread started 20 Apr 2017 (Thursday) 11:15
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Sony A9: Is Canon doomed ?

 
Luckless
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Apr 22, 2017 18:28 |  #151

"Its easy to change a battery!" kind of misses a main point in my view.

It is hard to drop a battery that is locked safely in the camera.
It is hard to short out a battery in wet conditions, when it is locked safely in a weather sealed camera.
It is hard to get dirt or something in the battery slot of the camera, when it is safely locked and closed.
etc.

Changing a battery or a card becomes a point of failure. It becomes a time where something damaging or bad is far more likely to happen, because there are now loads more possible things that have some non-trivial probability of happening.

Comparing the A9 with a grip and some spare batteries to a 1DX MkII and declaring it a complete win is ignoring a lot of the features and qualities that make people want a 1DX. Namely durability and reliability.


Canon EOS 7D | EF 28 f/1.8 | EF 85 f/1.8 | EF 70-200 f/4L | EF-S 17-55 | Sigma 150-500
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idkdc
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Apr 22, 2017 18:28 |  #152

Wilt wrote in post #18335232 (external link)
I used to shoot weddings in the days of film. Now I leave that market for the 'young and stupid' to spend 10-12 hours and delivering 1000-3000 photos in a DVD and getting little income from print sales, while also slaving more hours in postprocessing images rather than sending them to the pro processing lab to retouch negs and prints and do all the lab work.

Digital photography allows one to do a lot that could not possibly be done before, but it is hardly a labor saving device any more than a computer allowed us to 'get rid of paper'!

;-)a

Yeah, I don't do shoot and burn. There are plenty of gullible young folks who will fill that need, but that's not my market.
On digital vs. film, it's similar processes: post-process is like the darkroom of yore. You can do the same outsourcing or keeping it in-house just as you did before.


1DIII through 1DXII(2) | 5D2-4 | 5DS | 8-800mm
XT2 | 16-140mm

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Wilt
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Post has been last edited 6 months ago by Wilt. 3 edits done in total.
Apr 22, 2017 18:34 |  #153

idkdc wrote in post #18335252 (external link)
On digital vs. film, it's similar processes: post-process is like the darkroom of yore. You can do the same outsourcing or keeping it in-house just as you did before.

I had very capable lab that I could ship my film, and what comes back are preview prints. I would card the negs selected for prints, and send them to the lab with the preview marked with an ultrasharp Sharpie to indicate things to retouch out of an image, for those few prints in which the client requested (at extra cost) retouching services. Back would come final prints. Heck with self done darkroom work for 'production' especially when it was color work!...I saved the darkroom exclusively for my own personal enjoyment and relaxation of personally gratifying photography.


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Canon dSLR system, Olympus OM 35mm system, Bronica ETRSi 645 system, Horseman LS 4x5 system, Metz flashes, Dynalite studio lighting, and too many accessories to mention

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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
That's my line!
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Joined Jun 2011
The Uwharrie Mts, NC
Apr 22, 2017 18:39 |  #154

it's not just Canon,

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photography is doomed !!!


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Formerly he's gone before apostrophe-gate | Not in gear database: Canon 70-210 3.5-4.5, Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 2x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

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idkdc
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Apr 22, 2017 18:40 |  #155

Wilt wrote in post #18335254 (external link)
I had very capable lab that I could ship my film, and what comes back are preview prints. I would card the negs selected for prints, and send them to the lab with the preview marked with an ultrasharp Sharpie to indicate things to retouch out of an image, for those few prints in which the client requested (at extra cost) retouching services. Back would come final prints. Heck with self done darkroom work for 'production' especially when it was color work!...I saved the darkroom exclusively for my own personal enjoyment and relaxation of personally gratifying photography.

May I ask what you were charging and how many weddings you were shooting per year back then since you're no longer doing it? And is it not something you can do today with outsourced editing (I don't do that for my current price bracket)? I generally think that getting out of weddings should have more to do with physical health with age labor; I think the labor has remained the same.


1DIII through 1DXII(2) | 5D2-4 | 5DS | 8-800mm
XT2 | 16-140mm

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DaviSto
... sorry. I got carried away!
Joined Nov 2016
Abuja Nigeria
Apr 22, 2017 18:47 |  #156

idkdc wrote in post #18335258 (external link)
I generally think that getting out of weddings should have more to do with physical health with age labor; I think the labor has remained the same.

Sorry, it's not 100% clear what you mean by that. Can you explain?




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Wilt
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Post has been last edited 6 months ago by Wilt. 6 edits done in total.
Apr 22, 2017 18:48 |  #157

idkdc wrote in post #18335258 (external link)
May I ask what you were charging and how many weddings you were shooting per year back then since you're no longer doing it? And is it not something you can do today with outsourced editing (I don't do that for my current price bracket)? I generally think that getting out of weddings should have more to do with physical health with age labor; I think the labor has remained the same.

I was absolutely not a cut-rate photographer, nor did I attempt to place myself among the elite. I was priced to compete with studios doing wedding coverage, and I competed on quality of work and fullness of service and not taking over everything in directing the action of the day. Sure there were posed shots, but I have cringed at how photographers change the day and the action of everything in a wedding. Someone who knew the work of Denis Reggie would be more familar with my own style of shooting, with a bit of Monte Zucker thrown in. I did not operate a studio as primary source of income, however.

My specific rates would only be meaningful within my geographic area, and general publication of rates does NO ONE any good at all, because your geography is not like mine (I know you are in LA). It is silliness when the general question is posed on POTN and someone does not narrow it down to a specific city served, and even that would be valueless even within a city like Oakland CA with a diversity of families at all income levels! Someone serving Piedmont would be horridly overpriced for West Oakland, for example. Let's just say I have done my share of weddings at country clubs.


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idkdc
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Apr 22, 2017 18:55 |  #158

Wilt wrote in post #18335264 (external link)
I was absolutely not a cut-rate photographer, nor did I attempt to place myself among the elite. I competed on quality and fullness of service and not taking over everything in directing the action of the day. Sure there were posed shots, but I have cringed at how photographers change the day and the action of everything in a wedding. Someone who knew the work of Denis Reggie would be more familar with my own style of shooting, with a bit of Monte Zucker thrown in.

My specific rates would only be meaningful within my geographic area, and general publication of rates does NO ONE any good at all, because your geography is not like mine. It is silliness when the general question is posed on POTN and someone does not narrow it down to a specific city served, and even that would be valueless even within a city like Oakland CA with a diversity of families at all income levels! Someone serving Piedmont would be horridly overpriced for West Oakland. Let's just say I have done my share of weddings at country clubs.

Fair enough. Your first sentence answered my question. I just don't outsource my post-process. I'm just wondering at what level of service that it would make sense to do so. Are you in Northern CA?


1DIII through 1DXII(2) | 5D2-4 | 5DS | 8-800mm
XT2 | 16-140mm

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idkdc
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Apr 22, 2017 18:56 |  #159

DaviSto wrote in post #18335263 (external link)
Sorry, it's not 100% clear what you mean by that. Can you explain?

Sorry, didn't write that very clearly. I always thought that getting out of weddings has nothing to do with film vs digital or competition, but more to do with physical ability to deal with long hours, carrying heavy equipment, etc. I personally think the amount of labor within your respective tier or market has remained the same.


1DIII through 1DXII(2) | 5D2-4 | 5DS | 8-800mm
XT2 | 16-140mm

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Hogloff
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Joined Apr 2003
British Columbia
Apr 22, 2017 19:04 |  #160

idkdc wrote in post #18335142 (external link)
I mean the Sony menu system has always been docked against it even on the Sony F55, FS7 and FS5 cameras. Working pro's concede that programming buttons gets around this, but if you need to change some advanced settings, the menu can still in the way. Also programming buttons works fine if you're a single shooter, but as a studio, you would need to program multiple cameras the same arbitrary way and then train multiple shooters for the same muscle memory.

Ok, you are starting to dig deep into obscure scenarios...that's fine. But for the vast majority who don't share their cameras, you can customize the camera buttons and dials to suite your needs basically eliminating the need to go into the menus.

Tell me, what camera do you shoot and when and why do you use the menus on a regular basis. See to me, if you have to use the menus on a regular basis...that camera's interface fails...even if it has a great menu system.




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corndog ­ cabernet
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State of chaos
Post has been edited 6 months ago by corndog cabernet.
Apr 22, 2017 19:05 |  #161

nekrosoft13 wrote in post #18334966 (external link)
oh and can you autofocus manual focus only lenses on a Canon body?

Because you can autofocus manual only lenses on sony. Autofocus Leica glass, sure, Autofocus Olympus, Canon, Pentax, Minolta glass from the 50-60-70-80s sure.

You can? I'm interested in that. How does that work?




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Wilt
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Post has been last edited 6 months ago by Wilt. 3 edits done in total.
Apr 22, 2017 19:06 as a reply to idkdc's post |  #162

Yes, in SF Bay area, about 1/2 hour outside SF on the peninsula. But have covered weddings all around the bay, typically within about an hour of my location.

I believe that charges are based upon


  1. recoup all cost of materials (and hired workers), marked up
  2. get paid a reasonable amount for my time spent during entire job
  3. make a reasonable markup on all goods provided


So I calculated a higher amount for #1, with less charge going into #2 to pay me for my time (than if I did darkroom or postprocessing) than you might, where you spend hours at the PC in postprocessing.

But I also did jobs in the days when we were 'full service' in providing prints and arranging finished albums personalized and matted custom to the final photos chosen for the album, in a custom colored album and style.

I cannot imagine doing weddings in today's environment where bride expectations include all photos on DVD, which they take to Costco or Walgreens to make give-away prints to hand out to friends and relatives where I derive zero income from the follow-on print volume. Different world.

But we're off topic!

You need to give me OK to edit your image and repost! Keep POTN alive and well with member support http://photography-on-the.net/forum/donate.p​hp
Canon dSLR system, Olympus OM 35mm system, Bronica ETRSi 645 system, Horseman LS 4x5 system, Metz flashes, Dynalite studio lighting, and too many accessories to mention

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Hogloff
Cream of the Crop
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British Columbia
Apr 22, 2017 19:12 |  #163

Luckless wrote in post #18335250 (external link)
"Its easy to change a battery!" kind of misses a main point in my view.

It is hard to drop a battery that is locked safely in the camera.
It is hard to short out a battery in wet conditions, when it is locked safely in a weather sealed camera.
It is hard to get dirt or something in the battery slot of the camera, when it is safely locked and closed.
etc.

Changing a battery or a card becomes a point of failure. It becomes a time where something damaging or bad is far more likely to happen, because there are now loads more possible things that have some non-trivial probability of happening.

Comparing the A9 with a grip and some spare batteries to a 1DX MkII and declaring it a complete win is ignoring a lot of the features and qualities that make people want a 1DX. Namely durability and reliability.

Digging deep are we? Your 3 points laid out are just running rampant on the net with people's cameras just dying from the need to change batteries in the field. Let's put a bit of realism into our points rather than just making things up.




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idkdc
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Post has been edited 6 months ago by idkdc.
Apr 22, 2017 19:13 |  #164

Wilt wrote in post #18335277 (external link)
Yes, in SF Bay area, about 1/2 hour outside SF on the peninsula. But have covered weddings all around the bay, typically within about an hour of my location.

I believe that charges are based upon


  1. recoup all cost of materials (and hired workers), marked up
  2. get paid a reasonable amount for my time spent during entire job
  3. make a reasonable markup on all goods provided


So I calculated a higher amount for #1, with less charge going into #2 to pay me for my time (than if I did darkroom or postprocessing) than you might, where you spend hours at the PC in postprocessing.

But I also did jobs in the days when we were 'full service' in providing prints and arranging finished albums personalized and matted custom to the final photos chosen for the album, in a custom colored album and style.

I cannot imagine doing weddings in today's environment where bride expectations include all photos on DVD, which they take to Costco or Walgreens to make give-away prints to hand out to friends and relatives where I derive zero income from the follow-on print volume. Different world.

But we're off topic!

Haha, no worries. Just wanted to point out that for medium to high end markets in SF & NY, it's still full service, with majority of price being refactored into the "sitting fee" than print income.


1DIII through 1DXII(2) | 5D2-4 | 5DS | 8-800mm
XT2 | 16-140mm

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idkdc
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Post has been last edited 6 months ago by idkdc. 2 edits done in total.
Apr 22, 2017 19:19 |  #165

Hogloff wrote in post #18335274 (external link)
Ok, you are starting to dig deep into obscure scenarios...that's fine. But for the vast majority who don't share their cameras, you can customize the camera buttons and dials to suite your needs basically eliminating the need to go into the menus.

Tell me, what camera do you shoot and when and why do you use the menus on a regular basis. See to me, if you have to use the menus on a regular basis...that camera's interface fails...even if it has a great menu system.

I run a studio with still and video shooters under me, so it's my scenario. We run 1DXII, 1DX, 1D IV, 1D III, 5DII, 5DIII, 5DIV, 5DS, 7DII, XT2's and will ocassionally rent out FS7's and C300 II's. It helps to have a similar and reliable menu system to train a full staff on.


1DIII through 1DXII(2) | 5D2-4 | 5DS | 8-800mm
XT2 | 16-140mm

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Sony A9: Is Canon doomed ?
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