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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting
Thread started 06 Jan 2017 (Friday) 09:39
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Flashpoint eVOLV 200 R2 TTL Pocket Flash | (AD200) Thoughts?

 
Talley
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Aug 23, 2017 08:48 |  #931

Like I said until I run into an issue I'm not worrying about it


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jlafferty
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Aug 23, 2017 09:05 |  #932

OK, but again there are so many ways to do this that don't require throwing 500-1200ws through a big soft source and all of the complications that approach brings with it. Schedule the shoot for an overcast day. Move your client to open shade on a sunny day. Set up a scrim-jim or Uncle Sam to make your own open shade, and shoot a low powered soft source into that. Abandon strobe entirely and shoot in a well lit, natural light space with windows. And on and on.

The problem really is in what catalyzes the photos - collecting more gear; or making something cool and contending with gear as related - but always secondary - problem.

I know we're all faced with compromises of budget, back strain, staffing, communication, logistics, etc. but just lugging around a big light - ironically - strikes me as the knee jerk way to solve a problem that's not only gear related. You know the saying about carrying around a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Your notes about hard light/shadows not serving every goal/style are well taken. I also like soft sources, and sometimes find them the best look for a shoot. I mostly shared hard light stuff here because that was in keeping with the original point - contending with shooting in bright sunlight. I have a few things around working with Streaklights, soft sources and open shade. It can be great! But again, it presents different problems, to which the solutions aren't just bigger lights.

Likewise, your note about having excess power and being able to shoot well under a light's max. I'm into that. TBH when I'm outside filling sunlight with the 360 it's at between 1/16th and 1/64th. And even then it's often ND'd. When I'm shooting "studio" stuff (usually location work indoors) the 360s are kept around 1/4th to 1/16th and I get a respectable f/8, ISO400. I find you can shoot with instant recycle for, hmm, probably around 1200 images at these settings. I haven't really put the exact limits to test, but have shot three subjects in one day back-to-back for a total of about 7 hours shooting time - pages 4, 6 and 9 in the PDF are those shoots. As you say, these are "do anything" lights. OK, maybe not e-comm, 80 looks front and back... but 3 shoots, 7 hours, ~900 frames "anything" :D

Talley wrote in post #18434718 (external link)
What your doing works great. You've been able to embrace the ambient and work with it not against it. Most of your images have hard shadows which is fine, it's your style and taste. Some here are trying to create soft shadows in this harsh natural light.

I personally don't see needing more power than the 400ws the two AD200 gives. I moved to the AD200 from the 360 primarily due to space savings and having the twin head w/ modeling lamp option over this not being available on the 360s. ALL of my studio stuff will be using a single AD200 and probably at 1/4 power on the main so these lights are more than powerful enough.

But having the most reserve is beneficial in having lower power settings which leads to less overheat issues and more battery life. You could shoot with a AD600 at 1/64 power and shoot a Looooooong time vs having to shoot a single AD200 at something like what 1/8 for the same power output the AD200 would run out of juice quicker


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bobbyz
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Post has been edited 3 months ago by bobbyz.
Aug 23, 2017 10:30 |  #933

jlafferty wrote in post #18434560 (external link)
I'll leave this up for a couple days. All Streaklight. Most of the mixed with ambient stuff is just a single Manual head, with the standard double diffuser over the reflector. All but five of these is just one light:

https://app.box.com ...5faj3ecjuyyg55mxrcs​r35tar (external link)

Very nice shot, thanks. But maybe my definition of over powering the sun is different. This is AD600 at max power in a medium SB. In full sun, it won't darken bg.

IMAGE: http://www.bobbyzphotography.com/img/s6/v135/p379797093-5.jpg

Here is my Einstein which is more powerful than AD600 in a beauty dish but later in the day. Couldn't do this at mid day. I have tried.

IMAGE: http://www.bobbyzphotography.com/img/s1/v20/p959540450-5.jpg

This is same combo mid day. Look at the sun shadows. Not enough power IMHO.

IMAGE: http://www.bobbyzphotography.com/img/s/v-2/p824617285-5.jpg

But overall I am quite happy with ad600. haven't used ad200 much if at all.

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Talley
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Aug 23, 2017 11:07 |  #934

jlafferty wrote in post #18434814 (external link)
OK, but again there are so many ways to do this that don't require throwing 500-1200ws through a big soft source and all of the complications that approach brings with it. Schedule the shoot for an overcast day. Move your client to open shade on a sunny day. Set up a scrim-jim or Uncle Sam to make your own open shade, and shoot a low powered soft source into that. Abandon strobe entirely and shoot in a well lit, natural light space with windows. And on and on.

The problem really is in what catalyzes the photos - collecting more gear; or making something cool and contending with gear as related - but always secondary - problem.

I know we're all faced with compromises of budget, back strain, staffing, communication, logistics, etc. but just lugging around a big light - ironically - strikes me as the knee jerk way to solve a problem that's not only gear related. You know the saying about carrying around a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Your notes about hard light/shadows not serving every goal/style are well taken. I also like soft sources, and sometimes find them the best look for a shoot. I mostly shared hard light stuff here because that was in keeping with the original point - contending with shooting in bright sunlight. I have a few things around working with Streaklights, soft sources and open shade. It can be great! But again, it presents different problems, to which the solutions aren't just bigger lights.

Likewise, your note about having excess power and being able to shoot well under a light's max. I'm into that. TBH when I'm outside filling sunlight with the 360 it's at between 1/16th and 1/64th. And even then it's often ND'd. When I'm shooting "studio" stuff (usually location work indoors) the 360s are kept around 1/4th to 1/16th and I get a respectable f/8, ISO400. I find you can shoot with instant recycle for, hmm, probably around 1200 images at these settings. I haven't really put the exact limits to test, but have shot three subjects in one day back-to-back for a total of about 7 hours shooting time - pages 4, 6 and 9 in the PDF are those shoots. As you say, these are "do anything" lights. OK, maybe not e-comm, 80 looks front and back... but 3 shoots, 7 hours, ~900 frames "anything" :D

I don't disagree and I'm just a dad who gets to pick when I shoot too. I have the luxury of picking sunrise/sunset times to shoot. I was forced into a situation where I was shooting at high noon in texas full sun no clouds in an open field covered in blue bonnets which I wanted to get there early and/or stay late but the trip just didn't work out that way. Either way no matter how I would of shot it it was harsh shadows and at the time had the manual godox 360 with the standard trigger... So I shot at F22 so I could get my shutter down to 1/200 and ISO 50 just so I could help remove them dark shadows. Needless to say I didn't want to shoot at F22 for this but did so.

I did switch to no flash and took some images and we walked away with something but after that I got the HSS trigger and invested in a 5in1 60" reflector so I can at least kill the harsh light.

NOW I have the gear that won't limit me and I can control the light at any time of the day in any situation. NOW I'm prepared whether I need it or not I have it and can do it. My kit is the smallest minimalist approach to doing everything.


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CyberDyneSystems
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Post has been last edited 3 months ago by CyberDyneSystems. 2 edits done in total.
Aug 23, 2017 11:42 |  #935

bobbyz wrote in post #18434896 (external link)
.... my definition of over powering the sun is different. ...

This is a great explanation of what I think of when we say "over powering the sun" and a good example of not enough power to do so.

The simple go to shot that we have all seen where there IS enough light to over power the sun is the Sport Illustrated (or similar) swimsuit shot on the beach, tons of light was behind the model as the sun begins to set, BUT the massive array of lights is enough that the photographer can reduce the strong back-light down to something warm, soft and muted. with enough power, that background can be made as dark as the photog wants.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=BE6miZyH0eU (external link)


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abbadon31
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Post has been edited 3 months ago by abbadon31.
Aug 23, 2017 11:44 |  #936

The 200 will do fill flash all day long in full sun. You don't need to kill the sun to get images. Image shot with a hubcap reflector

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jlafferty
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Post has been last edited 3 months ago by jlafferty. 3 edits done in total.
Aug 23, 2017 12:25 |  #937

Sure. I understand the concept fine. I just don't get the point. You've now isolated the model against a generic black background. Why would you step outside mid day to do that? It seems backwards to me. When you can just hang duvetyne from gaff tape to the side of a building (gel a second source for the hair light)?

Of the shots you posted the first is the most appealing to my tastes and I can do something similar all day with the 360 so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

bobbyz wrote in post #18434896 (external link)
Very nice shot, thanks. But maybe my definition of over powering the sun is different. This is AD600 at max power in a medium SB. In full sun, it won't darken bg.

QUOTED IMAGE

Here is my Einstein which is more powerful than AD600 in a beauty dish but later in the day. Couldn't do this at mid day. I have tried.
QUOTED IMAGE

This is same combo mid day. Look at the sun shadows. Not enough power IMHO.
QUOTED IMAGE

But overall I am quite happy with ad600. haven't used ad200 much if at all.


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jlafferty
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Aug 23, 2017 12:31 |  #938

Show me the photos and I can tell you a way a similar effect is produced with a 300ws strobe or none at all. Go watch David Bellemere shoot swimwear; go find Gavin O'Neill's stuff. These are guys shooting the actual SI swimsuit issue. Most times they're doing it no strobe at all, or a single speedlight, or a single ringflash. Ask yourself why they're content to work without a big light and then why that's not good enough here…

The "overpower the sun" look doesn't sell to magazines (allowing a few exceptions). It sells tutorials online; it justifies buying gear to people who want to buy gear.

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #18434958 (external link)
This is a great explanation of what I think of when we say "over powering the sun" and a good example of not enough power to do so.

The simple go to shot that we have all seen where there IS enough light to over power the sun is the Sport Illustrated (or similar) swimsuit shot on the beach, tons of light was behind the model as the sun begins to set, BUT the massive array of lights is enough that the photographer can reduce the strong back-light down to something warm, soft and muted. with enough power, that background can be made as dark as the photog wants.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=BE6miZyH0eU (external link)


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mmmfotografie
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Post has been edited 3 months ago by mmmfotografie.
Aug 23, 2017 12:32 as a reply to abbadon31's post |  #939

I would once like to try a scrim net behind the model to balance the bright background with a shaded model. The usage of the flash can brought back by creating a balance on which to build.


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jlafferty
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Post has been edited 3 months ago by jlafferty.
Aug 23, 2017 12:45 |  #940

Some examples...

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=d6g3ku9wUws (external link)

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=JKhL5d3aBq4 (external link)

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=7huJcZWrQAs (external link)


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Talley
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Aug 23, 2017 13:27 |  #941

The best stuff I've ever seen had been bare flash. I think mastering bareflash and balancing it to ambient should be considered before moving into boxes.

Jlafferty takent far exceeds mine so I'm all ears something to consider.

I ordered a colt 45 reflector because that is the most effective modifier I've seen for midday stuff.

My lighting kit is now complete. I desire nothing more and have more than I need lol


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CyberDyneSystems
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Aug 23, 2017 14:18 |  #942

jlafferty wrote in post #18435016 (external link)
Go watch David Bellemere shoot swimwear; go find Gavin O'Neill's stuff. These are guys shooting the actual SI swimsuit issue. Most times they're doing it no strobe at all, or a single speedlight, or a single ringflash. Ask yourself why they're content to work without a big light and then why that's not good enough here…

I concede to have no knowledge of what modern SI photogs are doing, and that my limited knowledge is at lease 20 years old. So maybe my example reference is woefully out of date? The last time I saw an SI shoot taking place (on TV) was likely in the 1980s. There was Elle McPherson and a lot of lights.


Show me the photos and I can tell you a way a similar effect is produced with a 300ws strobe or none at all.

OK, yes I will happily take you up on your kind offer! I would truly like to know the secret here. Thanks for educating me.

Here's some of the shots I am talking about;

http://www.elbalonrosa​.com ...uson_1/hannah-ferg-11.jpg (external link)
http://media.gettyimag​es.com ...sports-picture-id84589906 (external link)
http://4.bp.blogspot.c​om ...tie+Brinkley+SI+cov​er.jpg (external link)
http://vivaglammagazin​e.com ...ts-Illustrated-Iconic.jpg (external link)
https://i.pinimg.com ...0d34657b94c0fb9429f​2c.jpg (external link)
https://cdn-s3.si.com .../images/danica-2008-5.jpg (external link)
https://www.bellazon.c​om ...2240ff3a0c77faa440e​b6271d (external link)


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jlafferty
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Aug 23, 2017 14:24 as a reply to CyberDyneSystems's post |  #943

You're funny. Thanks for the laugh.


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CyberDyneSystems
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Aug 23, 2017 14:59 |  #944

jlafferty wrote in post #18435140 (external link)
You're funny. Thanks for the laugh.

I apologize if I came off sounding anything but earnest, but I truly am saying only exactly what I typed above. Please take my posts in singular context and not mixed in with anyone else posts in this thread that may have contained sarcasm or humor and colored the context. None of that is coming from me.

No joke. No hidden smirk, nothing but accepting your offer to show me a better way. I am always eager to learn. Others will back me up, I am a total newb where strobes are concerned. I am a nature photographer that uses natural light, and have only just begun to learn to use anything more than bounced speedlight.


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jlafferty
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Aug 23, 2017 15:20 |  #945

Ok. I'll go with you. You picked all high key strobe photos with the sun in frame. Two of them have BTS videos on the net which reveal a single large strobe in use. If you were cherry picking to make a joke at the expense of my overall point you couldn't have done better ;-)a

That said, the Kate Upton shot is the most current I'd assume. Everything else is pretty old (Danica is 2008), or very old (Brinkley). Even the Hannah Ferguson shot is not only a few years old at this point, the dude shooting it looks old school.

So to my point the question is why would you have to shoot with the sun in frame for any of these images? If you're making a choice to do that and need a big light to make it happen that's your call. It just strikes me as a really restrictive way to work, and also looks very heavy handed. Even the Danica stuff, which is Ben Watts… man it looks bad to me. I'm not saying this out of jealousy- I really like much of Watts' work. But that Danica stuff looks really rough. It hasn't aged well but it doesn't even look good for the time IMO.

I'm going to play around soon and see what I'd do for beach stuff in this style working with a small light. I did a little in LA with just the 360 at sunset with the sun in frame using HSS. I'll see if I can dig up some examples.


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Flashpoint eVOLV 200 R2 TTL Pocket Flash | (AD200) Thoughts?
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