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Thread started 17 Aug 2017 (Thursday) 15:56
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Sick of 5D mkIII auto focus issues

 
welshwizard1971
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Sep 09, 2017 10:57 |  #61

Do I want to spend hours proving to a provocative offensive stranger on the net I'm not a liar? Let me think about that............


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Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

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welshwizard1971
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Post has been edited 1 month ago by welshwizard1971.
Sep 09, 2017 11:39 |  #62

Screw it, I downloaded DPP to check the focus points, explain these then if I'm to blame...

1/800 so slow shutter speed not an issue, the most popular reason put forward.
Middle of the day totally exposed so poor light isn't an issue.
135L so a superb lens, see my lad on the trampoline earlier.
ISO 200 so IQ isn't an issue.
No motion blur from me, braced against a lamp post and the area in front of my lad on the ground is pin sharp.
Lens MFA'd and is razor sharp on non moving subjects.
Focus point is on his belly, which is not in focus.
DOF at 3.2 should be enough to get him all in focus, certainly does when he's static, he clearly isn't in focus anywhere, although leaning forward so there may have been an issue there anyway if it was in focus on the focus point, but a moot point as it isn't.
AI Servo, on a slow moving child, which is fantastic apparently according to some posters.
The area that is in focus is between his trailing foot and leading foot, ie, it's front focused from the focal point on his tummy.
This was a sequence of what, 6-7 shots, this was the best, the rest deleted, some of which were catastrophically OOF, but as you can see, even with the best one, he's OOF, so with a non challenging subject with the right settings, a 100% failure rate.

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4362/36311304973_2fbfae6c0b_b.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/XjGV​Ui] (external link)

Luckily not everything is deleted on an SD card. Try this one, AI Servo, focus point right between his eyes, 1/2500 F2 same lens 135mmL 400 ISO, same again, sequence of 5-6 shots, this is typical of the entire sequence, not one in focus.


IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4331/36727701760_2c1a57d91f_b.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/XXv5​af] (external link)

5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

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Charlie
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Sep 09, 2017 18:48 |  #63

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18448059 (external link)
Screw it, I downloaded DPP to check the focus points, explain these then if I'm to blame...

1/800 so slow shutter speed not an issue, the most popular reason put forward.
Middle of the day totally exposed so poor light isn't an issue.
135L so a superb lens, see my lad on the trampoline earlier.
ISO 200 so IQ isn't an issue.
No motion blur from me, braced against a lamp post and the area in front of my lad on the ground is pin sharp.
Lens MFA'd and is razor sharp on non moving subjects.
Focus point is on his belly, which is not in focus.
DOF at 3.2 should be enough to get him all in focus, certainly does when he's static, he clearly isn't in focus anywhere, although leaning forward so there may have been an issue there anyway if it was in focus on the focus point, but a moot point as it isn't.
AI Servo, on a slow moving child, which is fantastic apparently according to some posters.
The area that is in focus is between his trailing foot and leading foot, ie, it's front focused from the focal point on his tummy.
This was a sequence of what, 6-7 shots, this was the best, the rest deleted, some of which were catastrophically OOF, but as you can see, even with the best one, he's OOF, so with a non challenging subject with the right settings, a 100% failure rate.

QUOTED IMAGE
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/XjGV​Ui] (external link)

Luckily not everything is deleted on an SD card. Try this one, AI Servo, focus point right between his eyes, 1/2500 F2 same lens 135mmL 400 ISO, same again, sequence of 5-6 shots, this is typical of the entire sequence, not one in focus.


QUOTED IMAGE
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/XXv5​af] (external link)

Ide suggest a more controlled test, your expectations may be too high with the second image. Near MFD, super thin DOF. Maybe print out a Target, walk while shooting the Target, and see how many hits or misses.


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welshwizard1971
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Sep 10, 2017 05:37 as a reply to Charlie's post |  #64

I take your point but I wanted just his face in focus, so that was deliberate. My wider issue is, in one shot it nails shots every time, in AI Servo, it says it's in focus, and nothing at all is in focus, time and time again. I'll test it when I get the chance following the good advice given earlier, just really busy at the moment...


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

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raptor3x
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Sep 10, 2017 13:08 |  #65

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18448059 (external link)
Screw it, I downloaded DPP to check the focus points, explain these then if I'm to blame...

On the first one, it does look like there is still some motion blur going on. Just look at where the focus is on the ground and it seems to line up with where the AF point is; but if you look up at his feet you can see that nothing moving is super sharp even if it's obviously in the plane of focus. As was stated earlier in the thread, you'll actually need higher shutter speeds to stop motion blur as the subject gets closer to MFD, especially if the subject is moving towards the camera.

For the second one, I can't comment on the rest of the sequence but the AF point is right on the forehead where there's zero contrast for the system to latch onto so it's not terribly surprising that it might have some trouble.


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AlanU
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Joined Feb 2008
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Sep 10, 2017 13:20 |  #66

Wizard,

When your photos are out of focus are they all front focusing?

For giggles try to only use Canon lenses. Rule out "tweeked" Sigma lenses.

I'll have to say borrow or rent another 5dmk3 if they are available. My 5d3 has been an incredible responsive camera with little issues you are having. Even my little prosumer 80D has been an incredible tool for ai servo that can easily track extremely fast spinning amusement rides.

What would be interesting is if you can borrow/rent a 5dmk4 or 1dx2 and shoot the identical scenario's as your 5d3. This would be a good indication of gear combo (your lenses) with a different body. If your getting similar blurry images I'd look at your lenses or also analyze your expectations of how fast AF should work in such short distance of fast movement.

Subjects far from the camera even wideopen can have that safety margin of more dof and breathing room. Even my OLLLLLLD awesome 5d classic was able to manage to document my niece's soccer game with 70-200 f/2.8LIS. AI Servo actually worked but as you know buffer and AF speed is ancient. My point is that AI servo with some long distances allows more margin of error.

I recall being on a learning curve when tracking kids running straight at me. Close proximity with even f/2.8 aperture using AI Servo can be some form of a challenge to a tracking camera. I will either use AI Servo or single shot AF and I've been very pleased with my results.

Currently my "difficult" big test I have is following my kids on a fast spinning amusement park rides. I'll say my 80D gives me alot of confidence while my "flagship" Fuji X-t2 with my current lens combo definitely cannot match my prosumer 80D/lens combos.

Another suggestion is to "SPRAY AND PRAY". See if your camera finally has time to compensate and actually catch the photos. If your child is running/walking quickly at you just hammer a tonne of shots. See if your 5d3 actually catches sharp images.

When I first read this thread I was shocked to be honest. The 5d3 has been a refreshing "better" Canon body that is a universal body for some sports action, family documentation, portrait/events work.

Hope you resolve this issue soon....

My suggestion is to read everyone's contribution in helping you out. Easier to just nod your head assess your ways of formulating a solution.

If you truly think it's your 5d3........ either trade it in or sell it.


5Dmkiv |5Dmkiii | 80D | 24LmkII | 35mm f/2 IS | 85 mkII L | 100L | EF-S 10-22 | 16-35L mkII | 24-70 f/2.8L mkii| 70-200 f/2.8 ISL mkII| 600EX-RT x2 | 580 EX II x2 | Einstein's
Fuji X-T2 w/battery booster | 16mm f/1.4 | 56 f/1.2 | 10-24 f/4.0 | 55-200 | EF-X500

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welshwizard1971
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Sep 10, 2017 14:18 as a reply to raptor3x's post |  #67

There's no motion blur, it's a toddler going slower than his normal walking speed shot at 1/800, the consensus earlier was that a slower shutter speed was good for a toddler running, which is faster than this. I obviously had the luxury of being there, and I can tell you his head was down the whole time, it's not motion blur. Also, the bike's front wheel is steeply raked, so the focus point is not lining up with the 'in focus' area on the ground, his feet are well ahead of his tummy, if it was lined up, his tummy would be in focus, it isn't.

Not great contrast granted, but I was aiming at his face not his forehead, with 5 or 9 points selected covering his entire face, and it is showing a focus point so focus was 'achieved', allegedly.


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

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john ­ crossley
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Sep 10, 2017 14:26 |  #68

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18448719 (external link)
There's no motion blur, it's a toddler going slower than his normal walking speed shot at 1/800, the consensus earlier was that a slower shutter speed was good for a toddler running, which is faster than this. I obviously had the luxury of being there, and I can tell you his head was down the whole time, it's not motion blur. Also, the bike's front wheel is steeply raked, so the focus point is not lining up with the 'in focus' area on the ground, his feet are well ahead of his tummy, if it was lined up, his tummy would be in focus, it isn't.

Not great contrast granted, but I was aiming at his face not his forehead, with 5 or 9 points selected covering his entire face, and it is showing a focus point so focus was 'achieved', allegedly.

In AI Servo the focus point lights up regardless of whether focus is achieved or nor.


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welshwizard1971
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Sep 10, 2017 14:30 as a reply to AlanU's post |  #69

No, not all front focusing, it's normally like the second shot, nothing at all in focus, it's maddening. And my most used lenses are the 24-70l II and the 135L, both stonking lenses, I occasionally use a sigma ART, not noticed a difference in results.

Open to somebody lending me a mk IV :)


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

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john ­ crossley
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Sep 10, 2017 14:31 |  #70

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18448059 (external link)
Screw it, I downloaded DPP to check the focus points, explain these then if I'm to blame...

1/800 so slow shutter speed not an issue, the most popular reason put forward.
Middle of the day totally exposed so poor light isn't an issue.
135L so a superb lens, see my lad on the trampoline earlier.
ISO 200 so IQ isn't an issue.
No motion blur from me, braced against a lamp post and the area in front of my lad on the ground is pin sharp.
Lens MFA'd and is razor sharp on non moving subjects.
Focus point is on his belly, which is not in focus.
DOF at 3.2 should be enough to get him all in focus, certainly does when he's static, he clearly isn't in focus anywhere, although leaning forward so there may have been an issue there anyway if it was in focus on the focus point, but a moot point as it isn't.
AI Servo, on a slow moving child, which is fantastic apparently according to some posters.
The area that is in focus is between his trailing foot and leading foot, ie, it's front focused from the focal point on his tummy.
This was a sequence of what, 6-7 shots, this was the best, the rest deleted, some of which were catastrophically OOF, but as you can see, even with the best one, he's OOF, so with a non challenging subject with the right settings, a 100% failure rate.

QUOTED IMAGE
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/XjGV​Ui] (external link)

Luckily not everything is deleted on an SD card. Try this one, AI Servo, focus point right between his eyes, 1/2500 F2 same lens 135mmL 400 ISO, same again, sequence of 5-6 shots, this is typical of the entire sequence, not one in focus.


QUOTED IMAGE
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/XXv5​af] (external link)

But with all due respect, all of the “physical” evidence put forward by your good self suggests that there is NOTHING wrong with the camera. I would say that out of the six images that you have posted in this thread it is only the last one that is actually out of focus. The other five all seem to have achieved focus where the focus point is actually showing on the image, although I can’t really comment on the Black and White one as I cannot open it in DPP, but it does look sharp and in focus.

In the case of the little lad on the tricycle I would say that you HAVE achieved focus on his stomach. As to the path between his feet being in focus, that is probably due to the fact that you are pointing the camera downwards at an angle, so therefore the plane of focus will be at 90° to the central axis of the lens, and NOT vertical.

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If you think that the camera is “front-focusing” then why have you adjusted the MFA by minus 6, as a minus adjustment moves the plane of focus closer to the camera body?

Yes, I agree, the final image is clearly out of focus. AI-servo auto-focus is not infallible, and unfortunately, sometimes it does get it wrong. But you do seem to have focused on an area of his forehead where there is very little contrast.

So in conclusion, out of the six images that you have posted here, five of them, in my opinion, have achieved focus where the focus point is displayed on the image. Thereby the evidence that you have submitted here suggests that there is nothing wrong with the camera.

Finally, if the camera is as bad as you say it is, then why haven’t you sent it back to Canon? In the time that you have spent whinging about it on here you could have got it fixed.


And that m’lud concludes the evidence for the defence.

Some days I'm the dog, other days I'm the lamppost

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welshwizard1971
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Sep 10, 2017 14:36 |  #71

john crossley wrote in post #18448728 (external link)
In AI Servo the focus point lights up regardless of whether focus is achieved or nor.

Hence the use of the word 'allegedly'.

So you're having a pop because it was in focus, now you're having a pop because it wasn't in focus, is there any state of focus where you won't try and find fault with what I've done?? I'll try and achieve that next time just to make you happy....


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

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welshwizard1971
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Sep 10, 2017 14:56 as a reply to john crossley's post |  #72

My God I hope you're not an actual lawyer :-D

The B&W is in focus, I said it was, to show how well the camera works in AI when it's side to side not front to back, I get cracking shots with the camera normally, please read the text, I only have issues in AI Servo when something is coming towards me.

There is no significant angle to the plane of focus, I was on my knees, as has also been stated, you can see how close I was to the ground. If there were an angle to the plane of focus it would be very minor, and angled towards him, so at least part of his body should be in focus, it isn't.

If you think that's in focus, that would explain why you're so happy with your AI servo performance  :p look down at the path, it's clearly sharper than his shirt.

I don't think the camera is front focusing, I never said that, but on this occasion it front focused, as has also been said, these lenses are razor sharp in one shot focus, all MFA'd with whatever that expensive software is called, as well as the 'spot' method to confirm the settings.

You say AI Servo is not infallible, but you were saying there was nothing wrong with it earlier and that it was obviously my fault?

I'll send it back when I can, I don't live next door to a canon store, there isn't one near work, I have a very busy responsible job, as well as have a young family, so I'm time limited to say the least, but it will be going, in the mean time, when I get the chance, I'll try some of what's been suggested. ...

Other than that, I'm impressed at the lengths you're going to in order show it's not the cameras fault, even checking the MFA settings, you sir have tremendous brand loyalty! I used to, now, not so sure, luckily I'm not well off enough at the moment to change brands so my GAS is well reined in....


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

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Sep 10, 2017 15:03 |  #73

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18430684 (external link)
... As you can see, all soft, nothing in focus front to back, motion blur to his leading foot, but even his planted foot is OOF.

QUOTED IMAGE
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/XSzL​h6] (external link)

The center of the shirt looks in focus to me.


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Lyndön
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Sep 10, 2017 15:27 |  #74

I've shot quite a bit of youth sports (soccer/softball) and a few weddings using my 5D3 with great results, so the camera itself is more than capable of keeping up with running kids. If your technique and settings/Cases are good, the hit rate should be way up there or something is wrong.

If you're convinced that it's the camera making the errors, send it on to Canon for a check up. Though rare, it's entirely possible that something isn't functioning properly.

I purchased my 5D3 just a couple of months after its launch, and my experience with it has been great.


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AlanU
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Sep 10, 2017 15:35 |  #75

I think borrow a 5d3 and tell us the results. That is the fastest and simplest solution.


5Dmkiv |5Dmkiii | 80D | 24LmkII | 35mm f/2 IS | 85 mkII L | 100L | EF-S 10-22 | 16-35L mkII | 24-70 f/2.8L mkii| 70-200 f/2.8 ISL mkII| 600EX-RT x2 | 580 EX II x2 | Einstein's
Fuji X-T2 w/battery booster | 16mm f/1.4 | 56 f/1.2 | 10-24 f/4.0 | 55-200 | EF-X500

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Sick of 5D mkIII auto focus issues
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