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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting
Thread started 11 Jan 2011 (Tuesday) 14:25
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BigLobowski
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Sep 22, 2017 13:38 |  #10846

Again Mal, great shots - and great background info. This is what forums/sites like this are all about - helping others better themselves through example. Keep up the great work - and accompanying info.


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Mindeater
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Congleton, England
Post has been last edited 28 days ago by Mindeater. 4 edits done in total.
Sep 22, 2017 16:49 |  #10847

Something I've always had in my 'master plan' was to do some high speed sync high(ish) power strobe photography, with horses jumping, just to see what you could do with fairly moderate kit. So after about 18 months of gathering knowledge (general photography knowledge), and kit, and making some good connections with my friendly horsey community, I rented an indoor arena, and found some willing models.

IMAGE: http://www.chromaticadorations.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/BTS_1_SMALL.png

This was very much a test session to see if it was even possible with the kit I had, to get the results I'd been imagining. I only had the arena for 4 hours (sounded a lot, it was not). After setup time, testing and tweaks, and having two horses to persuade to jump for us, the time flew by, but I learned a lot, so am keen to do some more shoots.

I can't say I love the results, as I think I can do a lot better with more time, and more practice, but the owners seem to like them, and after printing a few images off, they do look better printed, so I'm calling it a win.

All lights were set at full power HSS, ISO around 400, aperture around f/2.8-5, shutter was around 1/1250 sec.

I was still struggled to lose the background completely, and it was quite cluttered with jumps, next time I'm going to rent the smaller arena which has no jumps setup, and take another light (to be purchased), as I wanted a rim light too, but ran out. :(

Let me know what you think, cheers.

Daisy

IMAGE: http://www.chromaticadorations.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/untitled-90-2_SMALL-1.png

Nugz

IMAGE: http://www.chromaticadorations.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/untitled-103_SMALL-1.png



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MalVeauX
"Looks rough and well used"
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Joined Feb 2013
Florida
Sep 22, 2017 17:10 |  #10848

Mindeater wrote in post #18458170 (external link)
...

Interesting, and lovely horses.

I can't help but wonder why HSS though. Don't take this as a critique, more of a question, simply because ambient light is completely stopped out and the subject is completely lit via the strobes. You could have likely shot this as sync speed, stop down aperture and low ISO to kill ambient light, and used lower power strobe output and frozen motion exactly the same. HSS would have been important if you were including ambient light and blending to it.

Still, cool shots!

Very best,


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Mindeater
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Congleton, England
Post has been edited 1 month ago by Mindeater.
Sep 22, 2017 17:21 |  #10849

MalVeauX wrote in post #18458174 (external link)
Interesting, and lovely horses.

I can't help but wonder why HSS though. Don't take this as a critique, more of a question, simply because ambient light is completely stopped out and the subject is completely lit via the strobes. You could have likely shot this as sync speed, stop down aperture and low ISO to kill ambient light, and used lower power strobe output and frozen motion exactly the same. HSS would have been important if you were including ambient light and blending to it.

Still, cool shots!

Very best,

The HSS is kinda required, as shooting a moving horse at less than around 1/1250 sec, you get a blur :(

EDIT: But I know what you're going to say, the flash duration is a LOT less than the 1/200 sec sync speed, yes interesting point.... next time I will have more of a play, my goto shutter speed is just so high normally when shooting horses, I have it programmed in :)




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chris_holtmeier
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Omaha
Sep 22, 2017 17:26 as a reply to Mindeater's post |  #10850

In this particular situation, flash duration can be used to freeze motion. As long as you have a short T1 time, you could use a 1/10th shutter speed and freeze motion.



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Mindeater
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Congleton, England
Sep 22, 2017 17:33 |  #10851

chris_holtmeier wrote in post #18458181 (external link)
In this particular situation, flash duration can be used to freeze motion. As long as you have a short T1 time, you could use a 1/10th shutter speed and freeze motion.

Damn you all :) Now I need to book the next one soon so I can have a play with lower shutter speeds and have more light power to play with, thanks. ;-)a




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MalVeauX
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Florida
Post has been edited 1 month ago by MalVeauX.
Sep 22, 2017 17:38 |  #10852

Mindeater wrote in post #18458177 (external link)
The HSS is kinda required, as shooting a moving horse at less than around 1/1250 sec, you get a blur :(

EDIT: But I know what you're going to say, the flash duration is a LOT less than the 1/200 sec sync speed, yes interesting point.... next time I will have more of a play, my goto shutter speed is just so high normally when shooting horses, I have it programmed in :)

As you started to point out, flash duration is super short. Way shorter than your shutter speed. If you stop out ambient light with camera settings, then your flash duration becomes the exposure duration for the subject in terms of freezing motion. It's actually better at freezing motion than HSS because it's just way faster. The nice benefit is that you don't need HSS to do it.

Example, in your situation shooting 1/1250, F5, ISO 400 and that clearly takes ambient light completely out. If you were at 1/200s (sync speed, no HSS) you gain +2 & 2/3rds stop of light (2.67 stops). If you drop ISO 400 to 100 you lose 2 stops (-2.0 stops) of light and you now only have +2/3rds stop of light added to pre-existing exposure. Now take F5 to F6.3 and you've completely achieved the same exposure with sync speed values. So 1/1250s, F5 ISo 400 is the same exposure as 1/200s, F6.3, ISO 100. Ambient is stopped down with both, so you could have done the same thing with those settings and shot your strobes without HSS, gaining power in the strobes (as strobes always lose power doing HSS for output). At this point, you could stop aperture down more if you wanted, just to ensure all ambient was gone, and shoot strobes at any value. The benefit of this is that you could meter the strobes now (not in HSS without a specific meter that can meter HSS) with a light meter.

Again, please don't take it as criticism, just walking through the original question. The shots are great!

Very best,


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Mindeater
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Congleton, England
Sep 22, 2017 17:45 |  #10853

MalVeauX wrote in post #18458191 (external link)
As you started to point out, flash duration is super short. Way shorter than your shutter speed. If you stop out ambient light with camera settings, then your flash duration becomes the exposure duration for the subject in terms of freezing motion. It's actually better at freezing motion than HSS because it's just way faster. The nice benefit is that you don't need HSS to do it.

Example, in your situation shooting 1/1250, F5, ISO 400 and that clearly takes ambient light completely out. If you were at 1/200s (sync speed, no HSS) you gain +2 & 2/3rds stop of light (2.67 stops). If you drop ISO 400 to 100 you lose 2 stops (-2.0 stops) of light and you now only have +2/3rds stop of light added to pre-existing exposure. Now take F5 to F6.3 and you've completely achieved the same exposure with sync speed values. So 1/1250s, F5 ISo 400 is the same exposure as 1/200s, F6.3, ISO 100. Ambient is stopped down with both, so you could have done the same thing with those settings and shot your strobes without HSS, gaining power in the strobes (as strobes always lose power doing HSS for output). At this point, you could stop aperture down more if you wanted, just to ensure all ambient was gone, and shoot strobes at any value. The benefit of this is that you could meter the strobes now (not in HSS without a specific meter that can meter HSS) with a light meter.

Again, please don't take it as criticism, just walking through the original question. The shots are great!

Very best,

Totally, I feel like a chump as it's so obvious once someone laid it out, I need to step back sometimes (see most often), and try not to rush, I honestly appreciate the advice, not seen as critisism at all, thanks, I'll be sure to post up the results from my future experiments.

You've essentialy saved me a bunch of cash too, as I won't need all that power, so can split the three lights up for more complex setups.




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hammer418
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Indianapolis, IN USA
Sep 22, 2017 17:52 |  #10854

As the others have mentioned, the shots still turned out great. Good work ! :-)


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Islandphoneman
Junior Member
20 posts
Joined Jun 2017
Fleming Island FL
Sep 22, 2017 18:30 |  #10855

[QUOTE=EightEleven;184​55810]

MalVeauX wrote in post #18455766 (external link)
Heya,

Have some freshly baled hay in my field, my daughter wanted to go outside and play, so she got a dress and a little hair work from mom and we ran outside while it was still morning-ish and not overly hot yet (Florida is still cook'n). I'm still using my 10" reflector a lot outside and still really preferring it over wind-sails, it's a lot faster and easier to use with all the distance I gain with its efficiency for output, so I can really place it where I want, out of the way, and just fire. I can get it up high without fear of it coming down (a big modifier would be instant-to-the-ground).

Equipment:

Rovelight 600B in HSS mode
Photosel 10" Reflector (65 degree)
Yongnuo YN622c Transceiver (via pc sync)
Cheetah Boom Stand

Canon 5D Classic
Canon 135mm F2L @ F2
Tamron 90mm F2.8 VC @ F2.8
Yongnuo Yn622C Transceiver


Thanks so much for mentioning you used the YN 622 set up.. I have been looking for a strobe that will fit in with my current YN speedlights and triggers! Any other advice you'd suggest?


Nice Martin, I love these!!!




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BigLobowski
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Joined Sep 2012
BC, Canada
Post has been edited 1 month ago by BigLobowski.
Sep 22, 2017 18:50 as a reply to Mindeater's post |  #10856

This is just an example along the lines of what's being described (not exact - but close).
Single AB 800 @ approx. 3/4 power.
1D MkIV @1/300 f/11 ISO 100

I wasn't worried about completely eliminating background, as I intended on doing a fair bit of post work and dealing with it then, and simply wanted the single light effects on the player.

Your shots look great btw :)


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F2Bthere
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706 posts
Joined Oct 2015
Sep 22, 2017 19:15 |  #10857

Mindeater wrote in post #18458193 (external link)
Totally, I feel like a chump as it's so obvious once someone laid it out, I need to step back sometimes (see most often), and try not to rush, I honestly appreciate the advice, not seen as critisism at all, thanks, I'll be sure to post up the results from my future experiments.

Fabulous job pulling it together!

Don't feel bad. You have learned a ton. And you have explored HSS which May come in handy if trying to do things in sunlight (which is where you do need extra power).

Plus you will never forget :).


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dpe
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142 posts
Joined Jan 2017
Wareham
Post has been edited 1 month ago by dpe.
Sep 23, 2017 04:28 |  #10858

Mindeater wrote in post #18458193 (external link)
Totally, I feel like a chump as it's so obvious once someone laid it out, I need to step back sometimes (see most often), and try not to rush, I honestly appreciate the advice, not seen as critisism at all, thanks, I'll be sure to post up the results from my future experiments.

You've essentialy saved me a bunch of cash too, as I won't need all that power, so can split the three lights up for more complex setups.

If you set the AD600 to 1/2 - 1/3 you get a duration of 1/970 which should freeze action or just go to 1/2 - 2/3 which is 1/1196s, so losing less than 2 stops.

HSS at 1/1000 loses about 2 2/3 to 3 stops from my measurements so you gain a stop of flash power compared to full power HSS - you can get the best of both worlds by shooting tail sync (Long tail sync) you will still lose 2 stops of power at 1/1000 but you can use the higher shutter speed and recycling is less affected by thermal cutout

Mike




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golfecho
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Space Coast, Florida
Post has been edited 1 month ago by golfecho.
Sep 23, 2017 06:39 |  #10859

Mindeater wrote in post #18458193 (external link)
Totally, I feel like a chump as it's so obvious once someone laid it out, I need to step back sometimes (see most often), and try not to rush, I honestly appreciate the advice, not seen as critisism at all, thanks, I'll be sure to post up the results from my future experiments.

You've essentialy saved me a bunch of cash too, as I won't need all that power, so can split the three lights up for more complex setups.

Excellent shots!

My thoughts of HSS are that it is for bright situations (typically outdoors in mid day brightness) when you need maximum bokeh in the background, not when you want to black out background.

I am wondering how the horses reacted to the strobes? Were they skittish after their first run-through? Did they get spooked? I have always found horses to be strange critters in that each one has a different personality (ie-each one is spooked by a different thing). I saw one horse that nearly threw its rider when they came across an armadillo while the horse nearby could care less.


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Mindeater
Member
40 posts
Joined Jul 2016
Congleton, England
Sep 23, 2017 09:22 |  #10860

golfecho wrote in post #18458520 (external link)
Excellent shots!

My thoughts of HSS are that it is for bright situations (typically outdoors in mid day brightness) when you need maximum bokeh in the background, not when you want to black out background.

I am wondering how the horses reacted to the strobes? Were they skittish after their first run-through? Did they get spooked? I have always found horses to be strange critters in that each one has a different personality (ie-each one is spooked by a different thing). I saw one horse that nearly threw its rider when they came across an armadillo while the horse nearby could care less.

That's a common question, and often something which makes owners nervous about committing to anything like this. From my experience so far (and from research I did on the net prevously), I've seen close to zero response to either speedlite or studio strobes (I've shot about 5 horses so far), the only reaction we did have was from a very young shetland pony, who did get a little skittish initially, but did get used to it, and tbh, he was a very nervous little chap anyway.

All horses are different of course, so we do always fire off some tests with the horse standing still and calm and a little way from the main light, to guage any problem, and to ease them into it, but so far, never seen a horse be bothered. Now umbrellas, that is a totally different story, I've almost had a rider thrown from their ride after eyeballing my umbrella, that was a learning curve and a half :)

Agreed on the HSS, very annoyed that I went that route and placed such restrictions on the lighting, but all good info and stuff to try for next time.




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