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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Macro Talk
Thread started 30 Sep 2017 (Saturday) 21:42
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Is this considered image thievery?

 
orionmystery
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Sep 30, 2017 21:42 |  #1

I found many of my snake images on this website so I emailed the admin.

http://snakedatabase.o​rg ...es/Trimeresurus/neb​ularis (external link)

His reply:
===============
First of all: What you see is not the hotlinking of images. Nowhere on my website you will find just a single full-size image that is hotlinked and embedded in my page. I just don't do it, because I respect copyrights! What I do, I use the Flickr-API to show thumbnails of images on Flickr. This is perfectly legal - any search engine does the same - and when you click on the thumbnails, the link will redirect you from the snakedatabase directly to your Flickr account.

This is an automated process and in general welcomed by photographers because they will get more traffic on their pages through all these redirects.

If you don't like it, just change the sharing options of your images to private. As long as they are freely visible on Flickr, the API will continue to distribute your thumbnails. Not sure, if would be in your own interest, though.

Best regards,

Sascha
===============

He says it's not hotlinking? When I click on the thumbnails on the page, it brings me to that particular image on my Flickr!


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For example, if i click on the image on the top left, it takes me here:

https://www.flickr.com ...s/9353033@N05/17364​429891 (external link)

Is this really legal as claimed by him? My Flickr setting:

Allow others to share your stuff? - NO (changed it to NO yesterday!)

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Your thoughts on this appreciated! TIA.

Kurt, 70D/40D, Laowa 15mm, 60mm F2/270EX, MP-E65/MT-24EX for full flash (external link), Sigma 150 +1.4x TC for natural light (external link).
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LordV
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Oct 01, 2017 10:00 |  #2

Hi Kurt,
I'm not sure about the semantics of image linking but I would have thought the thumbnails are being hot linked.
However as far as I can see they are not stealing your images in any meaningfull way - ie clicking on a thumbnail takes you back to your photo on flickr plus they does not seem to be any commercial gain by them in their use of your thumbnails.
So overall I think the owner is correct in saying they are doing you a favour with more exposure.

Brian V.


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orionmystery
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Oct 01, 2017 10:17 |  #3

LordV wrote in post #18463923 (external link)
Hi Kurt,
I'm not sure about the semantics of image linking but I would have thought the thumbnails are being hot linked.
However as far as I can see they are not stealing your images in any meaningfull way - ie clicking on a thumbnail takes you back to your photo on flickr plus they does not seem to be any commercial gain by them in their use of your thumbnails.
So overall I think the owner is correct in saying they are doing you a favour with more exposure.

Brian V.

Thanks, Brian. I too think this is hotlinking! Although i agree that this is not stealing, I still think the page owner should have asked for my permission first. We should have a say in who or which page we want to be associated with IMO.

Agree about the exposure part too!


Kurt, 70D/40D, Laowa 15mm, 60mm F2/270EX, MP-E65/MT-24EX for full flash (external link), Sigma 150 +1.4x TC for natural light (external link).
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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Post has been edited 2 months ago by Left Handed Brisket.
Oct 01, 2017 10:48 |  #4

Hotlinking is primarily a term used to indicate using someone else's bandwidth and server space to host images/content shown on another persons website. It is really up to flikr to decide whether to allow hotlinking as it is their server and bandwidth.

Image theft is another issue.

I am wholly unfamiliar with the terms of service you agreed to when you signed up for (or continued using) Flickr. However, it would not surprise me one bit that you agreed to let them show your images in this manner. It is HIGHLY unlikely that Flickr is unknowingly allowing this type of hotlinking.

I am not at all saying I beleive it is something that they should be doing, but the fact is if you agreed to it, it is your responsibility to correct it.


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Formerly he's gone before apostrophe-gate | Not in gear database: Canon 70-210 3.5-4.5, Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 2x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

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orionmystery
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Oct 01, 2017 23:58 |  #5

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18463951 (external link)
Hotlinking is primarily a term used to indicate using someone else's bandwidth and server space to host images/content shown on another persons website. It is really up to flikr to decide whether to allow hotlinking as it is their server and bandwidth.

Image theft is another issue.

I am wholly unfamiliar with the terms of service you agreed to when you signed up for (or continued using) Flickr. However, it would not surprise me one bit that you agreed to let them show your images in this manner. It is HIGHLY unlikely that Flickr is unknowingly allowing this type of hotlinking.

I am not at all saying I beleive it is something that they should be doing, but the fact is if you agreed to it, it is your responsibility to correct it.

I consider what snakedatabase does (in this case) to be hotlinking. And I still think my permission should have been sought first.

According to what i read here, I think he does need to get user/copyright owner's permission prior to hotlinking.

https://www.flickr.com​/services/api/tos/ (external link)

===============
Comply with any requirements or restrictions imposed on usage of the photos by their respective owners. Remember, Flickr doesn't own the images - Flickr users do. Although the Flickr APIs can be used to provide you with access to Flickr user photos, neither Flickr's provision of the Flickr APIs to you nor your use of the Flickr APIs override the photo owners' requirements and restrictions, which may include "all rights reserved" notices (attached to each photo by default when uploaded to Flickr), Creative Commons licenses or other terms and conditions that may be agreed upon between you and the owners. In ALL cases, you are solely responsible for making use of Flickr photos in compliance with the photo owners' requirements or restrictions. If you use Flickr photos for a commercial purpose, the photos must be marked with a Creative Commons license that allows for such use, and also comply with the requirements for each license, unless otherwise agreed upon between you and the owner. You can read more about this here: www.creativecommons.or​g (external link) or www.flickr.com/creativ​ecommons (external link).

===============


Kurt, 70D/40D, Laowa 15mm, 60mm F2/270EX, MP-E65/MT-24EX for full flash (external link), Sigma 150 +1.4x TC for natural light (external link).
Plan a macro/herping trip with us:
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Scatterbrained
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Oct 02, 2017 01:05 |  #6

Change your "public searches" permissions.

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VanillaImaging.com (external link)"Vacuous images for the Vapid consumer"
500px (external link)
flickr (external link)
1x (external link)
instagram (external link)

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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Oct 02, 2017 01:26 |  #7

I'm just saying that the hotlinking issue is between Flickr and the site using the photos.

Copyright infringement is between you and the site using the photos, and from your above post it seems that there is indeed an issue.

Although the hotlinking provides the means for the copyright infringement, is not technically the overarching legal issue here.

I would collect as much documentation as you can before pressing the issue with the site. This site:

http://web.archive.org (external link)

Will allow you to look back in time and see how long this site has been in operation and probably allow you to even know when he started using your images.

From what I have seen around the web, and as with anything that involves lawyers, these legal cases can eat up a lot of time and money. I would limit contact with the sit until you know where you stand and how you want to proceed. If you are serious about ending this, and being compensated for the infringement, I suspect you will need an IP attorney.


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Formerly he's gone before apostrophe-gate | Not in gear database: Canon 70-210 3.5-4.5, Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 2x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Oct 02, 2017 01:28 |  #8

Scatterbrained wrote in post #18464345 (external link)
Change your "public searches" permissions.


thumbnailHosted photo: posted by Scatterbrained in
./showthread.php?p=184​64345&i=i13404966
forum: Macro Talk

That may end the use of images, but does leaving that enabled give implied permission to use the images?


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Formerly he's gone before apostrophe-gate | Not in gear database: Canon 70-210 3.5-4.5, Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 2x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

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orionmystery
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Post has been edited 2 months ago by orionmystery.
Oct 02, 2017 02:09 |  #9

Scatterbrained wrote in post #18464345 (external link)
Change your "public searches" permissions.


thumbnailHosted photo: posted by Scatterbrained in
./showthread.php?p=184​64345&i=i13404966
forum: Macro Talk

Thanks. I have always thought that if i check that option, my images won't be able to be found in google search! Is this not the case?

I need photo buyers to be able to find my Flickr images by just googling the keywords.


Kurt, 70D/40D, Laowa 15mm, 60mm F2/270EX, MP-E65/MT-24EX for full flash (external link), Sigma 150 +1.4x TC for natural light (external link).
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Scatterbrained
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Oct 02, 2017 02:28 |  #10

Well, you could test it to find out. I don't really know beyond that. If it were me, I'd create a search that would bring up my images in Google, and then try that same search after turning off the public search permission to see if it effected Google/Bing searches.


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TeamSpeed
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Oct 02, 2017 05:34 |  #11

This isn't even hotlinking in the conventional sense. Flickr is providing tools to developers to search and display thumbnails of results that link back to Flickr when clicked. It isn't that uncommon. Flickr depends on Google search to work and give you the traffic, and that other site is operating as a search engine too.


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orionmystery
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Oct 02, 2017 05:35 |  #12

Scatterbrained wrote in post #18464366 (external link)
Well, you could test it to find out. I don't really know beyond that. If it were me, I'd create a search that would bring up my images in Google, and then try that same search after turning off the public search permission to see if it effected Google/Bing searches.

I upload my images to Flickr because of the exposure I can get out of it! That is how image buyers/scouts find me! I guess I will have to put up with the risk of image thievery.


Kurt, 70D/40D, Laowa 15mm, 60mm F2/270EX, MP-E65/MT-24EX for full flash (external link), Sigma 150 +1.4x TC for natural light (external link).
Plan a macro/herping trip with us:
Borneo Herp Tour Nov 2017 (external link)

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orionmystery
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Oct 02, 2017 05:38 |  #13

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18464352 (external link)
I'm just saying that the hotlinking issue is between Flickr and the site using the photos.

Copyright infringement is between you and the site using the photos, and from your above post it seems that there is indeed an issue.

Although the hotlinking provides the means for the copyright infringement, is not technically the overarching legal issue here.

I would collect as much documentation as you can before pressing the issue with the site. This site:

http://web.archive.org (external link)

Will allow you to look back in time and see how long this site has been in operation and probably allow you to even know when he started using your images.

From what I have seen around the web, and as with anything that involves lawyers, these legal cases can eat up a lot of time and money. I would limit contact with the sit until you know where you stand and how you want to proceed. If you are serious about ending this, and being compensated for the infringement, I suspect you will need an IP attorney.

I am using a service called COPYTRACK. Still trying it out and have a few claims in progress. However, COPYTRACK will not accept hotlinking cases like this.

Thanks for the link. Very useful.


Kurt, 70D/40D, Laowa 15mm, 60mm F2/270EX, MP-E65/MT-24EX for full flash (external link), Sigma 150 +1.4x TC for natural light (external link).
Plan a macro/herping trip with us:
Borneo Herp Tour Nov 2017 (external link)

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TeamSpeed
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Post has been last edited 2 months ago by TeamSpeed. 6 edits done in total.
Oct 02, 2017 06:57 |  #14

Now this would probably upset me a bit, but this is a Google thing. Here is Google's image search... and your images show up under the snakedatabase site, but Google doesn't follow the image links back to the main source.

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However, the snakedatabase isn't storing anything at all of yours. The thumbnail image is also from Flickr. For example one of the images on the database page shows this as the image file. The site is just serving up Flickr thumbnails, so again the issue is more Flickr than the site owner's. Chances are if you want google traffic, you have to also accept the fact that Flickr is going to share search results with other sites too.

https://farm8.staticfl​ickr.com/7719/17364429​891_4a57156c3f_m.jpg
IMAGE: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7719/17364429891_4a57156c3f_m.jpg

The best way I can explain it to you is that the web page is sending a request to Flickr for pit vipers. Flickr returns a list of thumbnail image locations and their links to your page. The snakedatabase is simply wrapping an image IMG tag around each thumbnail that is returned (much like using IMG here on the forum), and the web link from that thumbnail goes to your Flickr page (much like the URL here on the forum).

Web techie speak: <A HREF = "YOUR FLICKR PAGE" >< IMG src="FLICKR THUMBNAIL IMAGE LOCATION" >< / A>
POTN equivalency: [U R L = "YOUR FLICKR PAGE"][I M G] FLICKR THUMBNAIL IMAGE LOCATION [/ I M G] [/ U R L]

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Dalantech
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Post has been edited 2 months ago by Dalantech.
Oct 02, 2017 14:18 |  #15

Kurt all the web site owner is doing is using a service that the Flickr API allows, and one that you've agreed to. It's not hot linking (since Flickr does not impose bandwidth limits on accounts) and it's not image theft because your images are not being copied onto someone's server. Trust me when I tell you if that thumbnail linking to your Flickr account is your biggest problem then you have it easy. I found my images on a site that allows people to download free wallpaper...


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Is this considered image thievery?
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