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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Glamour & Nude Talk 
Thread started 19 Oct 2017 (Thursday) 01:40
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If a model changes her mind ...

 
charlemagne
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Oct 19, 2017 01:40 |  #1

I have a model I worked with two times, and that resulted in some superb images.
Yesterday she let me know that she will not do nudes anymore and she also asked if I would refrain from using her pictures any longer.
I have a model release contract from the second shoot, not for the first one.
I have been shooting models for about five years now, her first shoot was one of my first cooperations, hence 'no contract' for the first shoot (I got smarter during the process) and she posed topless spontaneously and with no regrets after the shoot. She was very enthusiast about the result, but suffered a severe accident shortly after. 2 years later she had recovered 95% and we planned a second shoot, to her great pleasure. She was very enthusiast about the results again, she came posing in front of the images together with me when I had an exhibit etcetera.
Things have changed recently. She is a gym teacher in a catholic school and has gotten fearful about someone recognising her on the images. She talks about rumours in this sense. Also, she started doing commercial work, I'm not sure that this is linked, but it appears to be a sensitive thing here in Belgium to pose for fashion/commercial work if you also pose nude.(she's in her mid 30's and looking extremely good, she will probably be cast as a young and fashionable mother.
I have been doing this work just because we live in a world that too much condemns nudity and I feel we need to give beautiful nudes a place in art in particular and in society in general, to counterbalance brute porn on one hand or denial and censorship on the other hand.

I have been protecting my models to my best abilities, I let them choose a different name for publishing pictures, I never link to any of their social media profiles, I submit my selection of images for a second round of approval/refusal before publishing any picture, which most of the times works excellent, I have (after about 55 shoots) no complaints yet except this one. I believe my work is beautiful and deserves to be seen.
If I remove the images, I think I loose.
If I don't remove the images, she will blame me for any consequences, I loose.

I do not want to argue with models, but I feel very bad about it in every way.

thanks for reading all the way down, let me hear your ideas.
Ludwig


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texkam
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Oct 19, 2017 03:18 |  #2

Shoot atheists.

I think you must capitulate and unfortunately suffer the loss. Less potential problems in that.




  
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Dan ­ Marchant
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Oct 19, 2017 03:45 |  #3

Did you pay her to pose?
Are you currently making money from these images?

If there is a quantifiable financial loss then you could always ask her to buy the rights to the photos in order to counteract that loss.

If there is no quantifiable loss then do you really need to keep using them? Have you not improved as a Photographer? Don't you have other/better images?


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charlemagne
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Oct 19, 2017 05:15 |  #4

texkam wrote in post #18475838 (external link)
Shoot atheists.

I think you must capitulate and unfortunately suffer the loss. Less potential problems in that.

In a first reaction I thought so too, but this whole thing is what it is all about what I'm doing the last 5 years. I want to give beautiful nudes their own place again. I don't want to submit to the taboo atmosphere that is all around. It would solve all problems though.

Dan Marchant wrote in post #18475849 (external link)
Did you pay her to pose?
Are you currently making money from these images?

If there is a quantifiable financial loss then you could always ask her to buy the rights to the photos in order to counteract that loss.

If there is no quantifiable loss then do you really need to keep using them? Have you not improved as a Photographer? Don't you have other/better images?

In the contract I am entitled to use the images in a 'artistic business model', this means for books, exhibits and fine art sales. I have sold one image this summer for about 1500$. I work with a limited series of 7+1 artist proof and I have several images that are 'sellable' ... I don't see her come up with 1000's of Euro's to cover potential commercial loss. We had a TFCD agreement at the time being. The images were top notch at that time and are still top notch. I had an exquisite outdoor location, she has a beautiful body, the cloud pattern was perfect, everything worked out. When I posted the images I called the shoot a 'once in a year' thing, where everything falls into place. Believe me, exceptional images.

Of course I have other images, better is disputable, but I am talking about principles. If what I do is not enough to allow me to publish, then I'm afraid this is 'end of story' ... :(


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saea501
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Oct 19, 2017 06:57 |  #5

To me this is quite simple.

If she asked you not to use her images any more, then you do just exactly that. Contract.....no contract....it makes no difference. She doesn't want you to use them, that's all there is to it.


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welshwizard1971
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Oct 19, 2017 07:38 |  #6

Which is the reasonable thing to do with regards to her wishes, but, this chap invested time and money,I assume he paid her, and can no longer sell the images, so the reasonable thing here is to compensate him for any losses, that's the reasonable thing to do with regards to both parties. Now, not compensate him with regards to how much he might sell the image for, that's impossible to quantify, but certainly for any expenditure incurred so far, at the very least the return of her wages.

It's shame, but, I think that's the only fair solution.


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Oct 19, 2017 08:15 |  #7

charlemagne wrote in post #18475864 (external link)
I want to give beautiful nudes their own place again. I don't want to submit to the taboo atmosphere that is all around.(

It's a valid thought. But she apparently fears that the taboo atmosphere could cause her trouble at her job. I would not want my standing on principle to harm someone with whom I had a good artistic relationship and whom I respect.


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Oct 19, 2017 09:04 |  #8

It's an unfortunate circumstance, but I tend to agree with the others suggesting that you defer to the model's wishes. When it comes to portfolio work it's a foreseeable risk. I also think that if you try to enforce your contract and what you describe as principles, you may risk harm to your own reputation in the model community. If on the other hand you had paid the model for any of these shoots and thereafter had licensing agreements on the line or potential image sales that were less speculative, then it would be a different matter.

Perhaps you could appeal to her good nature to schedule a new shoot that would comport with her new sensibilities. I recommend that you not use this as a bargaining chit but rather a suggestion that she is free to accept or decline. The idea is to balance your principles with your reputation and working relationships.


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PhotosGuy
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Oct 19, 2017 09:22 |  #9

If she was some flake who changed her mind for no good reason, I'd suggest that she buy the rights to the images & take them down. But since she has a pretty good reason, "She is a gym teacher in a catholic school and has gotten fearful about someone recognising her on the images.", AND because you did make $1,500 on one of them, I'm inclined to hold the images back. I doubt that she'll have that job forever. And re the commercial work, as time goes by, the negative connotations should fade there, too?
But that's just one guys opinion. ; )


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charlemagne
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Oct 19, 2017 09:44 |  #10

saea501 wrote in post #18475883 (external link)
To me this is quite simple.

If she asked you not to use her images any more, then you do just exactly that. Contract.....no contract....it makes no difference. She doesn't want you to use them, that's all there is to it.

what is the means of a contract then? ...

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18475901 (external link)
Which is the reasonable thing to do with regards to her wishes, but, this chap invested time and money,I assume he paid her, and can no longer sell the images, so the reasonable thing here is to compensate him for any losses, that's the reasonable thing to do with regards to both parties. Now, not compensate him with regards to how much he might sell the image for, that's impossible to quantify, but certainly for any expenditure incurred so far, at the very least the return of her wages.

It's shame, but, I think that's the only fair solution.

I have not paid her but none the less have made costs (location, travel, mua, large format prints for exhibit, a limited series of Blurb books ...) she was willing to work TFCD at that time.


joedlh wrote in post #18475930 (external link)
It's a valid thought. But she apparently fears that the taboo atmosphere could cause her trouble at her job. I would not want my standing on principle to harm someone with whom I had a good artistic relationship and whom I respect.

I don't want to harm my models in any way, only nothing changed in her situation since the shoots and the agreements made, so this might as well be some 'new boyfriend' thing and then I don't agree, but its hard to find out ...

PineBomb wrote in post #18475951 (external link)
It's an unfortunate circumstance, but I tend to agree with the others suggesting that you defer to the model's wishes. When it comes to portfolio work it's a foreseeable risk. I also think that if you try to enforce your contract and what you describe as principles, you may risk harm to your own reputation in the model community. If on the other hand you had paid the model for any of these shoots and thereafter had licensing agreements on the line or potential image sales that were less speculative, then it would be a different matter.

Perhaps you could appeal to her good nature to schedule a new shoot that would comport with her new sensibilities. I recommend that you not use this as a bargaining chit but rather a suggestion that she is free to accept or decline. The idea is to balance your principles with your reputation and working relationships.

In the art world sales are always speculative, building a portfolio takes time and investment. This would mean that one could only work with professional models. I am not ready right now to schedule a new shoot of any type, as I think of her question to be somehow unfair considering the agreement made. In the end I do NOT want to argue with models, I think I can call every single one of them to setup a new shoot and they will answer yes, just because I am trustworthy. That is something I would not want to jeopardise for the sake of some images.

PhotosGuy wrote in post #18475961 (external link)
If she was some flake who changed her mind for no good reason, I'd suggest that she buy the rights to the images & take them down. But since she has a pretty good reason, "She is a gym teacher in a catholic school and has gotten fearful about someone recognising her on the images.", AND because you did make $1,500 on one of them, I'm inclined to hold the images back. I doubt that she'll have that job forever. And re the commercial work, as time goes by, the negative connotations should fade there, too?
But that's just one guys opinion. ; )

Sure she has a reason, but she was the same teacher at the same school back when we did the shoots, so basically nothing has changed in her position.

sigh ... I really liked the images, and so did she :cry: .

a secondary problem is that some images have certainly gone wild over the www. I had 100.000 visitors on my website over the last year, some surely use pinterest. :oops:

- for the record, I did not make $1500, I sold it for that price, cost including frame I keep approx $650 -


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Oct 19, 2017 10:57 |  #11

charlemagne wrote in post #18475976 (external link)
...Sure she has a reason, but she was the same teacher at the same school back when we did the shoots, so basically nothing has changed in her position.

You might have made it a bit clearer when you said , "Things have changed recently. She is a gym teacher..."

sigh ... :cry:

Sigh, yourself! Now I have the feeling that you just wanted to vent. So I'm changing my answer to, "You poor, misunderstood, artist! We all feel for you, but you should still suck it up & do the right thing."


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Oct 19, 2017 11:36 |  #12

I want to say, first of all, my wife and I both love your work. We both come from very strong religious backgrounds. In years gone by, we wouldn't have been able to enjoy your photographs because of that culture. I'll leave it there because of POTN's philosophy concerning religious discussions.

The very fact that this is a struggle for you shows your character. The struggle is there on many levels, it seems, if I'm getting the right sense through your posts. It isn't easy expressing things like this online. Money is always an issue, but let's set that aside for a moment. I think the dilemma is, taking down the photos is like bowing to the very ideas you are fighting with your work. Your efforts to bring beauty into the world are succeeding, so removing the photos would be a step backward. On the other hand, you have genuine care for the woman in question and don't want to see her hurt... while a the same time, since she's pursuing a more mainstream modeling career, you feel a bit hurt yourself.

Both of you have the money issue, since it looks like she has opportunities in commercial work and fears her nude photographs might have an impact there. In the end, you'll have to rely on your gut.... what leaves you the most peaceful inside. Based on your posts here, I think you'll end up agreeing to do as she wishes, though it will be painful for you. This isn't a recommendation.....jus​t a guess at what will work best for you in the long run.


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charlemagne
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Oct 19, 2017 11:46 as a reply to  @ PhotosGuy's post |  #13

I should have said 'her attitude changed recently'

and yeah, maybe I just wanted to vent ...


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charlemagne
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Oct 19, 2017 11:48 as a reply to  @ Phoenixkh's post |  #14

think you analysed things quite well,
of course I will agree, I have no other choice, only if I could find out how to prevent such things from happening again, ...

and thanks for the compliment on my work, I needed it :)


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Oct 19, 2017 11:59 as a reply to  @ charlemagne's post |  #15

Just do what a good human being would do.




  
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If a model changes her mind ...
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