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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting
Thread started 11 Nov 2017 (Saturday) 10:20
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If 430EX ii do not optically trigger ... what speedlites will ???

 
mdvaden
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Nov 11, 2017 12:19 |  #16

DaviSto wrote in post #18494029 (external link)
I think you will be OK if the 430EXii is in manual mode ... because there will then be no pre-flash to confuse the slave units. But EVERYTHING will have to be set up manually. The 430EXii will not operate as optical controller for any make of flash gun.

Usually I go manual anyway, but where I'm headed with this to experiment, manual would be certain.

My previous reply was based on a assumptive question of why Canon 430EX would need preflash if set on MANUAL if it does not communicate as a master, plus the manual mode. In manual mode. it seems only one flash would suffice for it's own job.


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DaviSto
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Post has been edited 7 days ago by DaviSto.
Nov 11, 2017 12:27 as a reply to mdvaden's post |  #17

I'm pretty sure you are right about this. In Manual there should be no pre-flash whatsoever from the 430EXii.


Comment and (constructive) criticism always welcome.

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MalVeauX
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Nov 11, 2017 13:09 |  #18

mdvaden wrote in post #18494024 (external link)
I just tested my 360's with the 430EX ii's. The Flashpoint set to "SLAVE 1" did fire optically. But I haven't delved into "preflash" yet.

If the 430EX ii is set on "M" / Manual mode, is it's flash fire WITHOUT a pre-flash?

That is because the 360 is a real optical slave, not just Canon's proprietary pre-flash version. Real optical slaves don't care what originated the light that triggers it. Canon's version only likes to receive encoded pre-flash signals and are not true optical slaves, this is why your 430EX will not trigger other Canon flashes set as slaves because its not a master with pre-flash encoded signal output. Also, your 430EX will not trip set as a slave when the 360 fires, because its not a real optical slave, and the 360 doesn't output Canon's encoded pre-flash signal.

This is why I've been saying that Canon doesn't have optical slaves. They have Canon's version which is limited to master/slave and requires Canon and Canon-clone models to work and are not all inclusive (not all Canon flashes are masters). This is what seems to have been the confusion a few posts early, with DaviSto, claiming that Canons are optical, when they're not true optical and that there's a difference and that's why you're not able to set your Canon flash and your Flashpoint to work both ways, because only one of them is a true optical slave (the Flashpoint in this case).

Very best,


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DaviSto
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Nov 11, 2017 13:30 as a reply to MalVeauX's post |  #19

Well, the 430 EXii is an optical slave as far as Canon is concerned. That's what they call it ... and it is driven entirely by optical signals, so it's hard to figure what other kind of slave it might be described as being.

It is true, however, that it will only act as an optical slave within the Canon Speedlite ecosystem. It will not function as a generic optical slave driven simply by a single flash that is not preceded by a pre-flash. Ironically, it will function as a generic optical master (although not as a master unit within the Canon ecosystem) as long as it is set to full manual and so does not itself emit a pre-flash (although some generic flash units can be adjusted to allow for, and ignore, pre-flash). This, as it turns out, is what the OP was actually inquiring about.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a long discussion around the names we call things by.

My prediction is that Canon will soon drop its optical control system from future Speedlites ... because the use of cheap radio transceivers has become the dominant technology.


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Bassat
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Nov 11, 2017 14:54 |  #20

DaviSto wrote in post #18494029 (external link)
I'm not the authority on this ... but, as I understand it, the 430EXii cannot act as a master unit within the Canon Speedlite ecosystem. It will, however, fire any generic flash unit set in optical slave mode (all it takes is a bright flash and the slave units will pop). But, if the Speedlite is firing a pre-flash for ETTL purposes, there is a significant risk they might fire too soon.

I think you will be OK if the 430EXii is in manual mode ... because there will then be no pre-flash to confuse the slave units. But EVERYTHING will have to be set up manually. The 430EXii will not operate as optical controller for any make of flash gun.

True. I mis-understood the part about 'manual' flash. You are, of course, correct. :oops:


Tom

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John ­ from ­ PA
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Nov 11, 2017 15:23 |  #21

I suggest you view the video at https://www.garyfong.c​om ...30exii-setup-remote-slave (external link). In addition you might want to download and print the Canon QuickGuide to the 430 EXII. It's handy to carry around and offers a summary of features and settings. Get it at https://www.learn.usa.​canon.com ...ite430EXII_QuickGui​de.pdf (external link).




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mdvaden
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Post has been last edited 7 days ago by mdvaden. 2 edits done in total.
Nov 11, 2017 15:31 |  #22

DaviSto wrote in post #18494094 (external link)
Well, the 430 EXii is an optical slave as far as Canon is concerned. That's what they call it ... and it is driven entirely by optical signals, so it's hard to figure what other kind of slave it might be described as bein

Based off all the replies so far, I don't find difficulty following the feedback. Whether Canon calls their flash option "optical" wouldn't matter much even if it does work optical in a limited fashion. I tried firing my Canon speedlites with another brand, and it doesn't work. So at the moment, I'm mainly concerned learning what flashes can be optically triggered by most ANY speedlite or monolite.

Evidently, Canon 430EX ii (etc.) is does not fill those shoes. But it looks like Godox and Yongnuo can achieve what I'm after. I wish the 430EX ii's would trigger from any other speedlite flash, but they are still good units and I plan to keep them. At least I'm learning where in the "FOOD CHAIN" to use them. If I experiment with a half dozen speedlites, it may as well be the other brands anyway to keep the cost down.

John from PA wrote in post #18494155 (external link)
I suggest you view the video at https://www.garyfong.c​om ...30exii-setup-remote-slave (external link). In addition you might want to download and print the Canon QuickGuide to the 430 EXII. It's handy to carry around and offers a summary of features and settings. Get it at https://www.learn.usa.​canon.com ...ite430EXII_QuickGui​de.pdf (external link).

I had seen that earlier this morning on Youtube. But it was published about 5 years ago, and I wasn't sure if it was relative to features of a few other light brands that became available since then.

It's a nicely recorded explanation though.


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MalVeauX
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Nov 11, 2017 15:39 |  #23

mdvaden wrote in post #18494162 (external link)
Based off all the replies so far, I don't find difficulty following the feedback. Whether Canon calls their flash option "optical" wouldn't matter much even if it does work optical in a limited fashion. I tried firing my Canon speedlites with another brand, and it doesn't work. So at the moment, I'm mainly concerned learning what flashes can be optically triggered by most ANY speedlite or monolite.

Evidently, Canon 430EX ii (etc.) is does not fill those shoes. But it looks like Godox and Yongnuo can achieve what I'm after. I wish the 430EX ii's would trigger from any other speedlite flash, but they are still good units and I plan to keep them. At least I'm learning where in the "FOOD CHAIN" to use them. If I experiment with a half dozen speedlites, it may as well be the other brands anyway to keep the cost down.

If you want to mix and match lights and not worry about their communication systems not being compatible (such as Canon's proprietary slave system), just make sure the flashes you're looking at have "optical slave" as a modality for triggering. The R2 system has this in their flashes (Flashpoint R2) as well as your Flashpoint 360, etc. They will all trip from any flash pulse (including your 430EX, or your camera's on camera flash if applicable, etc).

Mean while, you can also just use a system with transceivers such as Yongnuo's RF603 system, which are very inexpensive and bullet proof as manual triggers, and simply not use anything as a slave or any optical triggers and simply use the transmitters to handle it all. Then you don't have to worry about what flash maker, what abilities it has, etc. $15 a pop usually. So they're cheap enough to get a few and solve all issues.

Just for fun, radio is just a wavelength of light, so it's optical too. We just use wording differently because its easier on our brains. But obviously wording matters as you have found out in your experiments with regards to "optical." :)

Very best,


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mdvaden
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Nov 11, 2017 23:53 |  #24

MalVeauX wrote in post #18494170 (external link)
Mean while, you can also just use a system with transceivers such as Yongnuo's RF603 system, which are very inexpensive and bullet proof as manual triggers, and simply not use anything as a slave or any optical triggers and simply use the transmitters to handle it all. Then you don't have to worry about what flash maker, what abilities it has, etc. $15 a pop usually. So they're cheap enough to get a few and solve all issues.

Just for fun, radio is just a wavelength of light, so it's optical too. We just use wording differently because its easier on our brains. But obviously wording matters as you have found out in your experiments with regards to "optical." :)

Very best,

At first I missed the "transceivers" in your post, but figured out that the units are interchangeable to send or receive. Sounds like sync speed is close to what I usually shoot anyway. Bet a get a pair before New Year's passes by.

Thanks for the tips.


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inkista
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Nov 12, 2017 17:48 |  #25

MalVeauX wrote in post #18494170 (external link)
...
Just for fun, radio is just a wavelength of light, so it's optical too...

Um. No.

Radio and light are both different frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum (external link), yes. But radio is not light and is not optical.


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mdvaden
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Post has been edited 6 days ago by mdvaden.
Nov 12, 2017 22:38 |  #26

inkista wrote in post #18494932 (external link)
Um. No.

Radio and light are both different frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum (external link), yes. But radio is not light and is not optical.

Interesting how both travel the speed of light though, and are both electromagnetic if I understand the basic explanation about them.

I did happen to find an article out of Penn State noting radio waves to be a form of light. And another from Univ. of Georgia stating similar.

So relating this to the substance of this thread, both are detectible. And that still leaves the matter of which flashes can be triggered by the light of most others, and which can't.


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Nov 12, 2017 23:23 |  #27

mdvaden wrote in post #18495092 (external link)
And that still leaves the matter of which flashes can be triggered by the light of most others, and which can't.


  1. Generally, speedlights were not originally designed to be optically triggered, but merely driven as xTTL masters/slaves from cameras with master controllers, whether proprietary IR encoded TTL command or via proprietary radio TTL commands.
  2. Generally, studio strobes were (usually) designed to be generically optically triggered, but with no xTTL capability.

Then -- somewhat recently -- units like Godox came about, with 'hybrid' capabilities
  • act like studio strobes which have xTTL control
  • acti like speedlights which have optical slave capability

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If 430EX ii do not optically trigger ... what speedlites will ???
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