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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography
Thread started 15 Dec 2017 (Friday) 10:36
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Big pricing headache. Help anyone?

 
Rodreguez
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Bournemouth
Dec 15, 2017 10:36 |  #1

Hi there. I have to be careful how I word this because I don't want it coming up in their search. I've never priced for something so complex and with the ongoing exhibitions I don't even know how. If anyone can shed any light on this, even PM me, I'd be super grateful.

Basically it's for a very big Design Museum in Europe. (V*tr*) They're doing an exhibition in conjunction with loads of scholars, designers and architects about the history of dance and nightclub music and pop culture dating back to the 50s.

Basically I once did a job for M*chint*sh photographing a music system that was the biggest and most expensive ever and the Museum want one of the photos for the exhibition and a catalogue.

They want it as part of an international tour, expected to visit up to 6 to 8 international institutions over a "maximum 5 year period."

Along with that they want to publish it in a catalogue on two pages, that will be in both German and English with 6-7000 copies in each language.

As for the exhibition it'll be printed about 2 metres on a vitrine background.

So...how the hell do I even go about trying to price this? It's a nice opportunity obviously, and it could be exhibited for up to 5 years in major design institutions but I'm past the point of giving my work away for free. I've worked my arse off, scraping the barrel over the years and feel this should be a bit of an earner but at the same time, I don't want to miss the opportunity by going in too high.

The only exhibitions I've put on have been on 50/50 or 70/30 deal with the gallery on sales. This is different as the photo isn't necessarily on sale. Should I be generating any income for the photo being on display at these places?

I have a feeling I may need to price separately, once for the catalogue, and then ongoing for the exhibitions? They're not clear on exactly how many, just "up to 5 years, 6-8 Institutions".

If anyone who is really clued up about pricing and wants to PM me or even just write their thoughts here I can go into much more detail about who it is, but any assistance on this would be much appreciated.

You can see the photo of the sound system in the 'commercial' section of my website which is in my signature. (Black and white floor, three stacks)

Huge thanks in advance to anyone willing to give me some well needed advice on this. They're getting a bit impatient and I'm just stuck because I have no idea how to price this one....

Rod


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Wilt
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Post has been last edited 1 month ago by Wilt. 4 edits done in total.
Dec 15, 2017 11:06 |  #2

Your photo of the music system was part of a separately paid job already done for some other usage, and now they want to use it to promote this international tour...

  • If FOR profit (by the institution which is circulating the exhibition on international tour AND/OR by the venues of the tour), one would assume that your work is done for some compensation...which might take the form of monetary remuneration.
  • If NON-profit (by the institution which is circulating the exhibition on international tour AND/OR by the venues of the tour), one would assume that your work is done for credit to you in print or on website on all things which promote the tour to possible attendees

...if anyone materially 'profits' by use of the promotional materials, you need to get money or (at the minimum) your work is attributed to you. And even if no organization derives 'profit' from the exhibition, you still ought to get credit for your photography in any promotional materials.

...that is the general principal that I would apply

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Rodreguez
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Dec 15, 2017 11:10 |  #3

Wilt wrote in post #18518518 (external link)
Your photo of the music system was part of a separately paid job already done for some other usage, and now they want to use it to promote this international tour...

  • If FOR profit (by the institution which is circulating the exhibition on international tour AND/OR by the venues of the tour), one would assume that your work is done for some compensation...which might take the form of monetary remuneration.
  • If NON-profit (by the institution which is circulating the exhibition on international tour AND/OR by the venues of the tour), one would assume that your work is done for credit to you in print or on website on all things which promote the tour to possible attendees

...if anyone materially 'profits' by use of the promotional materials, you need to get money or (at the minimum) your work is attributed to you.

...that is the general principal that I would apply

Thanks for reply. I'd just like to note that the job I did wasn't for the people that want usage for this image.

Surely for profit or not, a catalogue with 7000 copies in two different languages should be payable, no? I get the thing with the exhibition though if it's non-profit...


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Rodreguez
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Post has been last edited 1 month ago by Rodreguez. 2 edits done in total.
Dec 15, 2017 12:13 |  #4

They've offered me 300 Euros for the lot. They say they're a non-profit organisation but the catalogues do go on sale but it only covers the costs. I guess they would say that. I dunno. I might just take it.

5 years of exhibitions, 6-8 venues, 14,000 prints. Just seems a bit crap.


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tcphoto1
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Post has been edited 1 month ago by tcphoto1.
Dec 15, 2017 12:14 |  #5

I'm not familiar with the Fine Art workings but I think that Getty or other Stock Photo websites price calculators would be a good place to start. I think 300 Euros is lowballing. I'd quote two rates and be very specific on the use, Region and term of usage. If the project is well received, you can bet there will be future uses of your images.


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MedicinSC
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Dec 15, 2017 12:43 |  #6

Remember that non-profit organizations have paid staff. The CEO of the non-profit does not provide his services for free. Non-profit just means the organization, itself, does not make a profit. That doesn't mean that everything to them is free.


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MedicinSC
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Post has been last edited 1 month ago by MedicinSC. 2 edits done in total.
Dec 15, 2017 12:45 |  #7

Of course, that's not to say that they can pay $10,000 for a piece to display, either. That depends on their funding.

If you think the 300 Euros is worth it to you, take it. If not, politely decline. It's about what it's worth to you, personally.

But, ask yourself this. It is being displayed as a piece among others, about the history of dance and nightclub music. Not about photographs. Very few people will be interested in who took a picture of the biggest and most expensive sound system (at the time the image was created). Rather, they will be interested in the sound system itself. So, how much is your name getting out there?

On the other hand (how many hands is this, now? lol) YOU can get your name out there, in your marketing, using the fact that your image is on display in a tour of international museums, while making 300 Euros.


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Rodreguez
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Post has been edited 1 month ago by Rodreguez.
Dec 15, 2017 12:56 |  #8

MedicinSC wrote in post #18518645 (external link)
Of course, that's not to say that they can pay $10,000 for a piece to display, either. That depends on their funding.

If you think the 300 Euros is worth it to you, take it. If not, politely decline. It's about what it's worth to you, personally.

But, ask yourself this. It is being displayed as a piece among others, about the history of dance and nightclub music. Not about photographs. Very few people will be interested in who took a picture of the biggest and most expensive sound system (at the time the image was created). Rather, they will be interested in the sound system itself. So, how much is your name getting out there?

On the other hand (how many hands is this, now? lol) YOU can get your name out there, in your marketing, using the fact that your image is on display in a tour of international museums, while making 300 Euros.

Yeah. I'm sick of the "non-profit" angle. I get it all the time from Festivals, Weddings trying to cut me down on price, events etc that can afford to pay security staff and toilets and stalls but think free entry for me to work is payment. What? I always decline but this does seem like an opportunity for website clicks and possible print sales if enough 'musos' visit. Like you say they'll be more interested in the music gear but I reckon there might also be some fetishists that want the piece blown up on their wall. (I'm not suggesting it's a masterpeice by any stretch). I suppose I can insist that my name and website are printed under every instance.

But still, 300 Euros seems like pittance to me.

For now I've emailed them back to be more precise about the book/catalogue. I don't have any indication as to whether it's a £50 coffee tale book or a £5,10 page catalogue.

That's a smart reply btw. Thanks.


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JacobPhoto
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Post has been edited 1 month ago by JacobPhoto.
Dec 15, 2017 18:34 |  #9

Rodreguez wrote in post #18518655 (external link)
But still, 300 Euros seems like pittance to me.

Then counter.

None of us will be valuable to help you understand what they might be willing to pay. The work is clearly valuable to someone. Whether it's 300 Euro valuable, 5,000 Euro valuable, or 50,000 Euro valuable is still to be determined.

Make a counter that you feel comfortable with (knowing that they will probably counter your counter). Have a number in mind that is your 'acceptable' number, and your 'walk away' number. If you counter with 5,000 Euro and they respond with 500 Euro as a final offer, do you walk away because that's 500 Euro more than you would have made otherwise since this image is simply sitting in the archives? or do you try and get them up over at least 1,000 Euro?

That's something that only you can determine for yourself.


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Dan ­ Marchant
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Dec 16, 2017 04:04 |  #10

+1 to Jacob's reply. Make a counter offer.


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Rodreguez
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Dec 19, 2017 10:55 |  #11

I talked them up to 500 Euros. I'm fairly happy with this tbh. I can't imagine a British company paying that. Also, with a 5 year exhibition run there's a chance of one or two audio fetishists hitting me up for a print of their own.

They responded immediately with a yes when I said 500. I should have said 600 lol.

But yeah, happy tbh.


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Sideshot
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Dec 19, 2017 12:07 |  #12

I am glad you talked them up, 300 really is not much. That is a small job not worth much time or thought.

Some of the constantly worse people I have dealt with are "non-profits". They pay themselves as much as they can, usually the CEO makes a very posh lifestyle or they are trying hard to.
Their business model is to get as much stuff for free... - then as much stuff for as dirt cheap as they can.

When I hear "non-profit" I have one foot out the door and am planning my exit.




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Rodreguez
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Dec 19, 2017 12:13 |  #13

Sideshot wrote in post #18521777 (external link)
When I hear "non-profit" I have one foot out the door and am planning my exit.

lol yes me too!


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Big pricing headache. Help anyone?
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