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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Sports Talk
Thread started 18 Dec 2017 (Monday) 10:02
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I'm ready for a new basketball body, still can't decide 7dII or 5dIII

 
heat00
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Jan 01, 2018 19:37 |  #31

I did notice that they auto focus points were bunched up tight in the middle... although I'm still not really sure I understand why that is a disadvantage...
don't you set the auto focus to, say the middle points, then line up your subject in that area that you set for the auto focus anyways? what is the advantage of having them spread all across the viewfinder? Is that for tracking reasons? are you saying that the subject can move across the view finder and then other auto focus points will pick it up? If so, how do you set it to do that? Is that something specific to the 7dII and or the 5dIII?
It seems there are (on paper) better specs and better performing bodies that are newer, unless there is something that they lack with the auto focusing, which is critical for fast moving people in low light?




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TeamSpeed
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Post has been last edited 18 days ago by TeamSpeed. 4 edits done in total.
Jan 01, 2018 19:50 |  #32

If you shoot sports and use lenses that allow you to get into the action, you won't use the center point. You will use an outer point to lock onto the player's face or shoulders. If you use the center point, lanky players will have their limbs cut off once you get the images off and review them. Also, often whatever you place in the middle of the frame isn't really what you want to focus on either. I haven't used center point for any sports for the past few years.

Center AF on this shot would have been an abdomen shot, and the player's face wouldn't have been in focus. No limbs would have been cut off though, but that is the other reason. Rarely in a very active sport is the player's face in the same focal plane as the rest of their body. My AF point that I use for landscape orientation is nearly the outer edge of the 5D4 (and 5D3, 1D3, and 7D2) AF spread. Granted there isn't a huge difference in AF coverage/spread between the 5D3 and 6D2, but every bit helps.

IMAGE: https://photos.smugmug.com/Sports-Events/Mad-Ants-Current-Season/Dec-30-2017/i-8LWxfFT/0/e63bfa14/X2/FX8A6408a-X2.jpg

Also, this is a very tight crop from a much larger FOV, but again, in portrait mode, I use an outer AF point to lock on the player and wait for them to launch up to do a 3 pointer...

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Here are 5D3 samples...

IMAGE: https://photos.smugmug.com/Sports-Events/Mad-Ants-2014-2015/i-ChBMRT5/0/9eb20e4a/X3/5P1B2052-X3.jpg

IMAGE: https://photos.smugmug.com/Sports-Events/Mad-Ants-2014-2015/i-b94kF7R/0/1dc952b7/X2/5P1B3620-X2.jpg

IMAGE: https://photos.smugmug.com/Sports-Events/C3-Sports/i-zNdwHLv/0/cdf244de/X2/5P1B0929-X2.jpg

IMAGE: https://photos.smugmug.com/Sports-Events/C3-Sports/i-FKqdNsn/0/85db22cc/X2/5P1B0948-X2.jpg

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heat00
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Jan 02, 2018 07:01 as a reply to TeamSpeed's post |  #33

wow, great shots as always.

the last pictures of the girls, looks like many of the gyms I have to shoot in... I don't know how you got that last shot so "clear" and clean at 2.8/6400 ISO? Is that all pp work as my shots don't look anything like that with the same settings lol...

ok I think I understand the focus issue.... so you are saying it has settings (7dII and 5dIII etc) that allow any of the cross type focus points to be used... but how does it know which ones you want to use? in other words, if you are vertical and there are multiple people in the shot, how do you and the camera know that you want the very top focus points used, say to focus on his or her face? not sure if I'm asking correctly and I'm sorry as my t3i doesn't really have any of these features, which is probably why many of my shots are out of focus lol...




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TeamSpeed
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Post has been last edited 18 days ago by TeamSpeed. 5 edits done in total.
Jan 02, 2018 07:32 |  #34

heat00 wrote in post #18531491 (external link)
wow, great shots as always.

the last pictures of the girls, looks like many of the gyms I have to shoot in... I don't know how you got that last shot so "clear" and clean at 2.8/6400 ISO? Is that all pp work as my shots don't look anything like that with the same settings lol...

ok I think I understand the focus issue.... so you are saying it has settings (7dII and 5dIII etc) that allow any of the cross type focus points to be used... but how does it know which ones you want to use? in other words, if you are vertical and there are multiple people in the shot, how do you and the camera know that you want the very top focus points used, say to focus on his or her face? not sure if I'm asking correctly and I'm sorry as my t3i doesn't really have any of these features, which is probably why many of my shots are out of focus lol...

I set it to manual point AF, and set the AF point I want. It is typically one of the center outer ones. The 7D2 and 5D3 both allow you to set different AF points for each of the camera orientations, so you can have one set for landscape, and when you switch to portrait, it uses your last AF point for that orientation.

I use noiseware as a primary tool in my actions to reduce noise. I would rather make sure I have the correct shutter speed first and foremost, and will deal with noise later.

You can control which single AF point you can use on the T3i. I am just not sure it has the orientation-linked AF point functionality, I think that is reserved for the higher end models. I never let my camera decide on what AF points to use.

That gym is a newer middle school gym fortunately, so they have new gas discharge lighting that works well. Over time, they will diminish and dim, and then we will likely be back to spotty poor lighting. :( Newer schools are now moving to LED tubes for lighting, so as time goes on, school gyms will be better lit, provided their diffusion is appropriate.


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heat00
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Jan 07, 2018 22:01 |  #35

i see the 7d II on amazon now for 1125? is it safe to purchase a body from amazon?
at 1125, its almost half the price of the best price i've seen for 5dIII, of 2100....
this definitely factors in here...
deciding between these 2 has been terribly difficult... clearly I would have bought a 7dII a long time ago however these 2 things just stick out so much, for indoor low light basketball....
the cleaner shots at higher ISO
and the much better focal range.

Maybe I'm overthinking these 2 as so many of you seem to have great results with the7dII even in similar terribly lit gyms... I suppose as long as the 7dII, and it's great autofocus, captures a focused shot (and the 10 FPs must help this too), can't noise be removed to match the results of the same shot taken with a 5dIII? not sure if that makes any sense or not. what I'm asking is with my very poor PP skills, can I take a shot at higher ISO and more noise, and PP it to remove the noise to look and have the same detail and results as the same shot taken with a 5dIII?

then there is the focal range.. just seems to be so much better to have a true 70-200 when most of my shots are in the 50-85MM range, which both fall into the 5d's true 70-200 range, as that 50-85MM range on crop is essentially the equivalent of 80-136MM? In real world will this eliminate the need for the 24-70 and switching mid game? Guess I'm just looking for advice from you that have used both... on paper this makes a lot of sense as I wouldn't need to take the 70-200 off unless I wanted really wide shots but even under the basket I looked back at many of my photos and I don't see too many going below 50 (which would be equal to 80 on FF).. it would give me the ability to goto what I now see at 43MM on the low end on a FF... just so hard to quantify if this really makes a big difference..

lastly is the autofocus.. is the 5d's autofocus in low light, on moving subjects, really as good as the 7dII's?

this is such a hard decision that I can't make still LOL




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TeamSpeed
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Jan 08, 2018 07:50 |  #36

From where do you shoot? For those of us that shoot right on the court perimeter, the answers might be different than someone that is at end end of either zone or in the stands. For example, 70-200 on a FF is too much sometimes. I will run 70-200 on the FF and 24-70 on the 7D2, probably a bit opposite what folks might think I should do, but this combo works well for perimeter shooting.


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heat00
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Jan 08, 2018 11:54 as a reply to TeamSpeed's post |  #37

I mostly try to sit (or stand) under the basket with my team coming at me... sometimes there is room to stand back but many times the 70-200 on Crop is too close and then I have to switch the 24-70. would be nice to avoid that switch but I guess it's not the end of the world... lol.

here's my last tournament: https://flic.kr/s/aHsk​Zq3xLr (external link)

I see in this gym(s) i used 24-70 more than the 70-200... however many of the shots are at 70....

maybe I'm overthinking and should just get the 7dII. noise can be reduced later and it's the same range as I'm shooting now, for $1100 brand new I would think it's a solid choice. I am excited about the AF more than anything as I know it will track subjects much better than the t3I?




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TeamSpeed
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Post has been last edited 12 days ago by TeamSpeed. 2 edits done in total.
Jan 08, 2018 12:16 |  #38

The 7D2 will get you probably around 2/3 better noise than the T3i (better noise characteristics, resolution equalized down), the 5D3 will go beyond that yet, and allow you to use the 70-200 more often. Yes, the 7D2 will track AF much better than the T3i.

Tough decision! To reduce noise, take a look at Noiseware, or there are other tools out there too that have come a really long way in noise reduction on a JPG.


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heat00
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Jan 08, 2018 15:26 as a reply to TeamSpeed's post |  #39

yes this is brutal LOL...

I use Lightroom and I don't want to spend a lot of time PP, nor do I have the skill or know how. I figured out enough on LR to get the noise out.

I guess if even with the 5dIII I would have to reduce noise, then its the same time and process so no real advantage there?

Just down to the price and focal range really... but that's not so easy either LOL...




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Sibil
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Jan 08, 2018 15:33 |  #40

heat00 wrote in post #18536508 (external link)
I guess if even with the 5dIII I would have to reduce noise, then its the same time and process so no real advantage there?

Unless the gym lighting is cave-like, you shouldn't need to do much noise reduction with the 5DIII. I shoot youth basketball with 6D and I seldom have to do much noise reduction. I shoot to the right by 1/3 EV and that helps a lot.




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TeamSpeed
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Jan 08, 2018 17:42 |  #41

The 5d3 will be 1.5 to 2 stops better that the t3i, meaning that ISO 6400, it will look similar to ISO 2000 on the t3i.


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heat00
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Jan 08, 2018 18:40 as a reply to Sibil's post |  #42

Interesting and good to know. How do you find the focus on the 6d for basketball? I did look at the 6dii the other day but I wasn’t sure it would outperform the focus of the 5diii. What are your thoughts on this? It’s nit much cheaper either.




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heat00
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Jan 08, 2018 18:44 as a reply to TeamSpeed's post |  #43

That’s huge right? Maybe no pp necessary then? The only thing I really do in post is some cropping and lots of noise reduction. Perhaps this is the main reason to go 5d over 7d?
Is it’s focusing as good as the 7d, for basketball?
Also I know we discussed already but is the 6dii even a contender? Or is it’s focus system for low light moving objects be inferior to the 5diii?

Wish you were close by so I could test yours lol. I hate to have to return anything and I’m trying to make the right selection but it’s so hard as you don’t really know how will it perform with focus, lighting, and focal range without having it in hand, in my gym setting, to shoot for a day lol.




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heat00
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Post has been edited 11 days ago by heat00.
Jan 08, 2018 18:48 |  #44

And will the 5d’s auto iso be ok, as compared to the 7d? I do shoot in manual but I leave Aperature set at 2.8 only, auto iso, then I select and change shutter speed depending on if the subjects are still or moving etc.

Also a lot of people keep telling me not to go above 400-500 max shutter speed however I see you and most here go way higher, I assume to get a crisper shot and stop the action better? With the 5d and it’s better low light wouldn’t that allow me to go higher shutter speed as compared to the 7d while using a lower iso for a cleaner image?




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Jan 08, 2018 21:00 |  #45

heat00 wrote in post #18536622 (external link)
That’s huge right? Maybe no pp necessary then? The only thing I really do in post is some cropping and lots of noise reduction. Perhaps this is the main reason to go 5d over 7d?
Is it’s focusing as good as the 7d, for basketball?
Also I know we discussed already but is the 6dii even a contender? Or is it’s focus system for low light moving objects be inferior to the 5diii?

Wish you were close by so I could test yours lol. I hate to have to return anything and I’m trying to make the right selection but it’s so hard as you don’t really know how will it perform with focus, lighting, and focal range without having it in hand, in my gym setting, to shoot for a day lol.

I no longer have a 5D3, I use a 5D4, but yes, it will do as well as the 7D2, and better than the 6D2. We talked about how the AF points are all clustered together on the 6D2 and it most likely wouldn't be conducive to sports shooting unless you were framing very loosely. There is no real advantage the 6D2 has over the 5D3, they have the same basic IQ, ISO and DR curves.


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I'm ready for a new basketball body, still can't decide 7dII or 5dIII
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