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Thread started 26 Feb 2005 (Saturday) 06:22   
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paladin
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First, congrats to the top 3 and all who posted. I enjoyed each photo.

As for no "old" photos allowed, I would find that an inconvenience. I had specific ideas for the "egg" and "pencil" challenges. I had them set up in my mind and had the titles. What I did not have was the free time to execute either photo. As others have stated, restricting this to new photos only will elimanate some entries due to time constraints. Just my opinion.

Gil

Post #16, Mar 23, 2005 11:48:49 as a reply to post 462471


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dbump
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teekay wrote:
In summary: ENOUGH RULES ALREADY!

Since the challenge has been running quite well with the existing set of rules, I'd have to agree. I'm glad Don kicked it off in the first place, as we have yet to reach consensus!

That said, I think it's still worthwhile to discuss the rules on an ongoing basis in this thread, as we see things that work/don't work. As I've said before, I really like the winner's choice approach to the rules--that keeps things interesting, and gives us more data on what works.

Also, if I can interpret Don's comments: I don't think he's in favor of encouraging low participation as much as he's not in favor of compromising the quality of the entries just for the sake of high participation. That is, low participation isn't a goal in itself, but it is an acceptable (if lamentable) symptom of rules that encourage creativity.

I can see both sides--and I don't feel strongly about it, but I would say that this isn't the only photo challenge available on the web, so it's not as if we'd be denying folks that opportunity if we did require new images. I still don't know how we'd determine the age of a photo though...

Post #17, Mar 23, 2005 12:14:41 as a reply to post 462392


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Raj
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Don Ellis wrote:
If nothing else, we're exercising our brains as much as our shutter fingers -- and we're being pretty civilized about it. :)

Before I comment, let me reinterate that I'm not rabid about NEW-ONLY SHOTS, but they do make some sense. After all, it is a challenge.

Raj wrote:
> IMO as long as the contestant owns the picture & it is
> shot with a valid camera, then I dont think it is
> appropriate to debar it just because it was shot in
> past.


Don't confuse "ownership" with "usage." Just because you own a car doesn't mean you can drive on the wrong side of the road. You have to follow the rules -- and that's what we're here to discuss and hopefully agree on.

> If the picture meets the contest criteria & is
> pertinent then why not allow it ?


Laziness. Plus you're going to choose your "BEST OF" shot and put it against some poor guy or girl who didn't have that subject in stock and has to go out and shoot a new photo under time restrictions. ONLY-NEW SHOTS level the playing field to some extent.

Having said that, you have to remember we're international and seasons are different in different hemispheres, so you have to be careful not to choose "Icicles," for example.

> Agreed that posting "new" pics will make poeple go out & shoot
> but this may not always be practical.


So they can sit on the bench for a week. There is no implied "right" to participate in these challenges. If you can't, you can't.

> Just my thoughts.

Mine, too. :cool:

Cheers,

Don

P.S. This is not to you, but please don't let me hear anyone whine, "These are supposed to be FUN!" No, they're not... they're supposed to be challenges.

Don, by ownership I simply meant as long as contestant has himself shot the pic (in past) it should be allowed to post, not meaning violating the rules as thats what we were discussing - fabricating rules. This offcourse, after the pic clears all qualifying criteria. There was no intention of driving on the wrong side.

Well I can see both sides here & will happily go with whatever majority comes up with.

Cheers

Post #18, Mar 23, 2005 17:59:42 as a reply to post 461876


1DX, 5D, 20D with BG E2, Sigma EX DG 8mm F3.5 Circular Fish Eye, EF 15 mm f2.8 fish eye, EFS 10-22 mm f3.5-4.5, EF 24-70 F2.8 L mark ii, EF 24-105 f4 L IS, EF 16-35 f2.8 L , Sigma 35mm f1.4 A, 50 f1.8 mkII, 50 mm F1.2 L, EF f85mm 1.8, EF 100 f2.8 macro, EF 135 F2 L, Sigma 70-200 f2.8 EX HSM, EF 70-200 f2.8 L, IS USM mark ii, EF 100-400 f4.5-5.6 L IS, Sigma 18-125 f3.5-5.6 DC, APO 1.4x, G3, Cheapy Velbon Sherpa 435, Slick Carbon Fiber, Speedlite 430EX and 580EX with stofen OM-EW

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Don ­ Ellis
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teekay wrote:
After reading all the comments so far re old/new photos, I suggest the compromise solution is best: Let the person setting the challenge choose each week whether or not the images should all be new.

I was trying to avoid each host setting rules. And by the sound of this rules discussion, the one who picks "only new" photos is not going to be popular with half the participants.

We have quite enough limitations as it is, and I even agree with Rich that no titles or description should be needed to explain a photo to the judge. Lack of a title certainly should not disqualify a photo - after all, it always has a file name.

Not having a title has never disqualified anyone, but there are very few rules -- 640 pixels, no border, title, camera name -- so it's not unreasonable to request they be followed.

Besides being invisible, the image file name crw_2865-800-cropped-sharpened-potn.jpg isn't the height of information or creativity. You wouldn't stick it on an art gallery photo you were trying to sell.

Encouraging a low number of entries merely so the judge can comment on each and every one should not be a factor. Commenting is hard work,and the judge should not feel obliged in every case to donate his/her presumably valuable time analyzing images with faults that must be obvious to the photographer in most cases anyway after seeing the winners and near winners.

We're not encouraging a low number of entries -- especially so the judge can comment on them. If you reread my remark about commenting in this thread, I said that "I realize this is not necessary."

And in the Pencil Winners thread, I said, "[Commenting is] going to be the first thing to disappear when we hit 50 entries. :lol: I also want to mention to other hosts that commenting on every photo is not required... we don't want winning one of these things to be too intimidating."

In summary: ENOUGH RULES ALREADY!

Few games in life have fewer rules than this challenge. And we're not talking about adding more rules, just deciding what the existing rule will be for old/new photos.

Don

Post #19, Mar 23, 2005 20:16:51 as a reply to post 462392




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Don ­ Ellis
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dbump wrote:
Since the challenge has been running quite well with the existing set of rules, I'd have to agree. I'm glad Don kicked it off in the first place, as we have yet to reach consensus!

I'll repeat what I've said before -- I'm not rabid about "only new" photos. But once I began thinking about it, I realized that the ability to post old photos puts many photographers at a disadvantage. If I've been shooting sunsets for the last three years and the challenge is Sunsets, it's going to be a lot easier for me to win than someone who has to hope for a good sunset in the next five or six days.

That said, I think it's still worthwhile to discuss the rules on an ongoing basis in this thread, as we see things that work/don't work.

Certainly gives us something to do after we've uploaded our shot -- or while we're waiting for the sunset. :D

As I've said before, I really like the winner's choice approach to the rules--that keeps things interesting, and gives us more data on what works.

That's certainly a possibility.

Also, if I can interpret Don's comments: I don't think he's in favor of encouraging low participation as much as he's not in favor of compromising the quality of the entries just for the sake of high participation. That is, low participation isn't a goal in itself, but it is an acceptable (if lamentable) symptom of rules that encourage creativity.

Thank you... that's very accurate.

I can see both sides--and I don't feel strongly about it, but I would say that this isn't the only photo challenge available on the web, so it's not as if we'd be denying folks that opportunity if we did require new images. I still don't know how we'd determine the age of a photo though...

Good point... as for the G-series itself being limiting, I suppose it is. It limits participants to the few million people who own G-cameras. :lol: Speaking of which, if anyone knows a G-user, you might invite them over. This really is one of the best forums on the web.

I've got to go think RED now. :cool:

Cheers,

Don

Post #20, Mar 23, 2005 20:25:38 as a reply to dbump's post 8 hours earlier.




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Don ­ Ellis
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Raj wrote:
Don, by ownership I simply meant as long as contestant has himself shot the pic (in past) it should be allowed to post, not meaning violating the rules as thats what we were discussing - fabricating rules. This offcourse, after the pic clears all qualifying criteria. There was no intention of driving on the wrong side.

I knew I should have avoided analogies. :confused: What I meant was just because you took a photo doesn't mean you can use it. You can't enter your Bird photo in a Dog challenge, for example. That's where the "usage" comes in.

Well I can see both sides here & will happily go with whatever majority comes up with.

Since a majority isn't really forming, we'll continue as we are until it does.

Cheers,

Don

Post #21, Mar 23, 2005 20:32:19 as a reply to Raj's post 2 hours earlier.




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rich ­ lawrence
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Don Ellis wrote:
Quantity is a virtue only in Haagen-Dazs and hot fudge.

So? :rolleyes:

What will 50 entries get us? Sloppier photos, no doubt, and the host won't be able to comment individually even if he or she wants -- although I realize this is not necessary. But I do think we're going to miss that ability to share tips, tricks and techniques, which would elevate this challenge above the let's-win-a-prize contest.


Then let's make it a rule. ;)

You remind me that we could use a list of off-limit, brain-dead challenges. Top of the list would be landscapes, sunsets and reflections.

It aint gonna be a load of fun with just 3 entries a week whatever the calibre,
and so? not everyone is goin' to start at the same standard...but I reckon there
isn't a g-series out there that hasn't taken something interesting at some time,
i would prefer to nuture and coax the comp now rather than throttle it at birth.
Then when we get bored....new entries only.
:)
tellin' me you've not got a single landscape etc your not proud to share? :eek:

Post #22, Mar 24, 2005 15:38:34 as a reply to post 461884


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dbump
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Just playing Devil's advocate here, but we don't yet know how/if restricting photo age will affect participation, since that rule isn't yet in place. If we do decide on such a restriction, it would be worthwhile to poll folks to see how many aren't participating due to that, and re-evaluate based on the results.

Post #23, Mar 24, 2005 17:40:18 as a reply to rich lawrence's post 2 hours earlier.


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paladin
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Yes, I had posted the egg/pencil comment elsewhere but was asked to repost it here.

Sorry I failed to make myself clear. My point was that if I had previously taken a photo of an egg, pencil or whatever subject may be broached in the future but am limited to only a "new" photo then time constraints might not allow me to retake a photo. And why is it several people think we can only learn from a current photo? I still have the exif data on all the photos I've taken and kept. Be it old or new, the comments from the judges and others would still help to enlighten me. On the other hand, if I don't have time to set up a current challenge and don't have an old photo then I lose an opportunity to learn from something I did either past or present, which is my loss. But limiting to only "new" photos removes all opportunity of learning.

Also, I have glanced at most of the photos entered as of Wednesday and very few, if any, have any exif data. Without this data, I have no way of knowing what steps were taken to produce a particular photo. How do I "learn"? What if I want to create a similar condition? Old or new, the lack of exif data hinders the learning process and does little more than show me a photo, or condition, I either want to create or avoid.

Whatever whoever decides to do then I will take whatever action is best for my situation. There are pictures I took two days ago and pictures I took a year ago. If one I took a year ago applies to a challenge and I would like the G series judges and users to say, "it would have been better if you had tried/done this, that or the other" then what does it matter? I am a rank amatuer. Any and all help is appreciated whether I took a photo this month or in March of 2004.

Again, just my opinion.

Kindest Regards,
Gil

Post #24, Mar 25, 2005 13:12:09 as a reply to dbump's post 19 hours earlier.


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rich ­ lawrence
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yeah...and one more thing.........

Ah just sold me G5, so if its only new pics allowed
I can't enter :o

in all seriousness...good luck which ever way you
choose to go, I shall remain an avid onlooker from
now on...(may just be able to enter next week :) )

digi slr pour moi

All the best

Rich;)

Post #25, Mar 26, 2005 14:44:47 as a reply to paladin's post 1 day earlier.


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paladin
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Devil's Advocate

Ah well ----, why stop with new photos only? If we are going to be technical, precise, then we might as well go all the way.

Since this is for G series only we need to eliminate the Pro 1. If we make an exception for the Pro 1 then we might as well include all Canon digital cameras. Make that all Canon cameras, digital or film. Sorry Pro 1 owners but, technically, your camera is not a G series.

To make a completely even playing field we need to limit the G series to “out of the box” equipment only. No adapters, filters, external flashes, etc. After all, not everyone can afford or has the extra accessories. We also need to specify the format to be used such as LS (large superfine JPG). I am excluding RAW because not everyone can afford the same RAW conversion software. Granted, the G series does come with a RAW conversion utility but the G6 is superior to the G1 software. Remember, we are looking for a completely even playing field.

The only “tweaks” that can be made to the photo should be “in camera”. No post-processing. Once a photo is post-processed in any way it ceases to be a pure G series photo. It has been enhanced. And, once again, not everyone can afford PSCS or other high-priced software. Have you forgotten the purely technical, even playing field? No cropping would be allowed as that would also modify and/or enhance the original G series photo.

So, to make this a technically pure G series photo: G series only, no exceptions; new photos only; out of the box only; no accessories; large superfine JPG only; no post-processing or cropping; only allowed to re-size longest side to 640 plus the other rules already in place. Have I forgotten anything? Oh yes, the judging.

The winner and judge of each challenge must precisely define what is desired. Not “red”, “egg”, “pencil”, or “stop action”. It must be precise, as in: “red apple”, “brown, whole, not cracked/broken egg”, “yellow pencil with eraser and lead visible but no distracting writing”, “man, woman or child between X and XX years leaping over couch”. Must specify lighting but has to fall in the parameters of what everyone has available; natural daylight, incandescent light, fluorescent light but cannot include studio lighting as not everyone has access to this equipment. I think that is all but perhaps you can point out what I have missed. I really think we need a detailed list of rules and regulations to make these challenges no fun at all, painfully tedious and boring.

Just a thought.

Gil :D ;) :D

Post #26, Mar 29, 2005 12:07:02 as a reply to post 467419


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dbump
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You should have titled that "A Modest Proposal"
:)

Post #27, Mar 29, 2005 12:30:49


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Raj
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dbump wrote:
You should have titled that "A Modest Proposal"
:)

:wink:

Post #28, Mar 29, 2005 16:57:39 as a reply to dbump's post 4 hours earlier.


1DX, 5D, 20D with BG E2, Sigma EX DG 8mm F3.5 Circular Fish Eye, EF 15 mm f2.8 fish eye, EFS 10-22 mm f3.5-4.5, EF 24-70 F2.8 L mark ii, EF 24-105 f4 L IS, EF 16-35 f2.8 L , Sigma 35mm f1.4 A, 50 f1.8 mkII, 50 mm F1.2 L, EF f85mm 1.8, EF 100 f2.8 macro, EF 135 F2 L, Sigma 70-200 f2.8 EX HSM, EF 70-200 f2.8 L, IS USM mark ii, EF 100-400 f4.5-5.6 L IS, Sigma 18-125 f3.5-5.6 DC, APO 1.4x, G3, Cheapy Velbon Sherpa 435, Slick Carbon Fiber, Speedlite 430EX and 580EX with stofen OM-EW

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teekay
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The first posting on this thread says:
"Changes can certainly be made in the rules AFTER DISCUSSION AND CONSENSUS IN THIS THREAD."

So let's get rid of the rule saying that every entry has to have a title - leave it up to the photographer.

In each challenge one can say that ALL the entries automatically have a title if not otherwise given one by the photographer. For example, in the recent challenge, "Body Language", one can assume that each photo could well be titled "Body Language" since that must be what the entry is meant to illustrate.

Any artist has the right to give his/her work a title or not and nobody should be penalized for lack of one, in this forum or elsewhere.

Post #29, May 10, 2005 09:51:15 as a reply to Raj's post 1 month earlier.




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BottomBracket
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There's actually no problem. If the photographer elects not to name his/her work, the he/she can simply put "Untitled".

Post #30, May 10, 2005 11:54:02


Pio
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