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Shutter speed help for action shots

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Thread started 25 Sep 2003 (Thursday) 20:31   
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Gibmeister
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I attempted to take some photos at a soccer game today. I used a Sigma 70-200 f2.8 APO HSM lens on the Canon 10D. I also used the Sigma 2X teleconverter which took the Aperture to 5.6. I was shotting in aperture priority mode. ISO 100. The shutter speed was coming out at about 1/125th. From the look of the shots(faces and body somewhat sharp, moving parts blurred) I need a faster shutter speed. What would be a good shutter speed to be shooting at to stop the action on this type of shot? How much shutter speed do I pick up by going to ISO 400 or say 800? Thanks in advance for the help on this.

Gib

Post #1, Sep 25, 2003 20:31:54




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jcsorensen
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Let me take a shot at answering this. To start with, the effective focal length of your lens, based on a 2x converter and the 1.6 factor of the Canon sensor, is now 224 mm to 640 mm.

Hopefully you're shooting with a tripod at these focal lengths. Minimum shutter speeds for hand holding should be 1/250 and 1/750 respectively.

Each time you double the ISO, you gain one f/stop which can be used by reducing your aperature, or increasing you shutter speeds. Since your interest is speed, I'll assume you leave the f/stop the same. For example at f 5.6 and 1/125 at ISO 100, you will get the same exposure results at 1/250 for ISO 200, 1/500 for ISO 400, and 1/1000 for ISO 800 (leaving the f/stop at 5.6).

As ISO goes up, so goes the noise level.

Not sure if I explained this well, but hopefully you get the picture (no pun intended).

Post #2, Sep 25, 2003 20:42:54




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Gibmeister
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So taking the noise and shutter speed needed to hand hold a shot like this and let's say I want to make just 4x6 or 5x7 prints. What would you shoot at?. Secondly, this lens is quite long and heavy and I don't seem to have a real steady hand. So if I use a tripod as you suggested what shutter speed would I try to shoot at? For sports shots like this would you want to keep the f stop wide open?

Gib

Post #3, Sep 25, 2003 20:52:11




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clayk
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I would bump the ISO to 400 and try to shoot at a 500th of a second ( or close). A 1000th is better. I shot some kids soccer today for kicks at a 1000th at 2.5 at iso 100, so iso 400 would give you around a 1000th of a second.

I shot sports for a long time and am just getting back into photography. Hand holding was out for me, just too tiring. I use a monopod, much easier to handle than a tripod. Got a bogen one for around $35 USD, Invaluable.

If you want to see my shots, go to

http://www.ardemgaz.co​m/clay/soccerexternal link

I was just messing around for a few minutes and put these up for the parents.

Good luck and hope this helps

Post #4, Sep 25, 2003 21:05:20




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Gibmeister
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Cool photos especially the last one of the boy in the yellow practice jersey. Thanks. I am trying to take shots of high school boys. I will look on e-bay for a monopod. I saw the newspaper guy shooting at the game today with one. Thanks for the help.

Gib

Post #5, Sep 25, 2003 21:19:57




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Jon ­ Borcik
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Although an amature, I shoot a lot of sports shots with my 10D. My recommendation is to set the camera for shutter priority taking in account the lens you are using. I usually get great results setting the shutter speed at 350 or faster. My favorite lens for soccer and lacrosse has been my Canon 100-400 L IS (f4.5) lens. I find the push pull telephoto action a lot easier to use than my twist Canon 70-200 L IS (f2.8) lens. I usually push the ISO setting to as high as 400 on sunny days and 800 on cloudy days. The noise is not noticeable.

Post #6, Sep 25, 2003 21:29:39


1D MkII; 100 Macro, 24-70L, 70-200L IS, 100-400L IS, 1.4x MkII, Sigma 600mm
http://jrbphoto.smugmu​g.comexternal link

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DaveG
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Gibmeister wrote:
I attempted to take some photos at a soccer game today. I used a Sigma 70-200 f2.8 APO HSM lens on the Canon 10D. I also used the Sigma 2X teleconverter which took the Aperture to 5.6. I was shotting in aperture priority mode. ISO 100. The shutter speed was coming out at about 1/125th. From the look of the shots(faces and body somewhat sharp, moving parts blurred) I need a faster shutter speed. What would be a good shutter speed to be shooting at to stop the action on this type of shot? How much shutter speed do I pick up by going to ISO 400 or say 800? Thanks in advance for the help on this.

Gib

When I shoot sports I never use a shutterspeed slower than 1/500 of a second. With your rig as you've described, you are going to need at least a monopod as well to help control camera shake which is a different issue from subject movement.

Set the shutterspeed to 1/500 and after that crank up the ISO until you get a correct exposure wide open. If the noise/grain is too great for you remove the 2X extender and pick up the two stops.

Your lens without the converter is about a 300 mm long, and that's pretty good for most things, and more to the point will be two stops faster, which in your example will give you that 1/500 you'll need.

If you find that you can't get 1/500 with an acceptable (to you) ISO then shoot on another day.

Post #7, Sep 26, 2003 09:04:24


"There's never time to do it right. But there's always time to do it over."
Canon 5D, 50D; 16-35 f2.8L, 24-105 f4L IS, 50 f1.4, 100 f2.8 Macro, 70-200 f2.8L, 300mm f2.8L IS.

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Gibmeister
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Thanks for the help! I plan on looking for a monopod ASAP. I found one on ebay. A Bogen 3218 with a 3232 head. Any thoughts on which monopods to look at or avoid? I think I will use the advise here regarding setting the shutter priority at around 500, get the monopod and try again.

Post #8, Sep 26, 2003 09:19:22




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clayk
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I would skip the head on the monopod. I have never found any use for them. The top of the monopod has the bolt you need to mount in the tripod collar and since you can move the monopod pretty much any way you want. a head is redundant

Post #9, Sep 26, 2003 09:55:08




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dmalek
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maybe you dont need 1/500 ...

this is only if you really want to freeze the movement. you can use 1/125 or 1/200 particularly if the players are running towards you. also if you want to show the speed of the ball for example by having it blurry, or one leg of a player blurry at the time of hitting the ball.

this is an easy job if you use 1/500 because both action is frozen and camera shake is not an issue. but if you try to be creative then i think you need shoot "at the limits of what is possible" ie low speed, low ISO, camera shake risk, risk of getting blurry pictures). To avoid coming back home with "no good picture" you need to shoot lots of them, because it's hard to be sure you get a good one during the games, or notice a framing issue or bothering thing in the frame (for example IMG_8727.jpg where only part of the ball is shown and players in the background look annoying to be me, without them you'd get a very graphic picture like in IMG_8728.jpg).

yours pics are great by the way (i like IMG_8728.jpg because of the faces and the fact that this pic shows that they both are "fighting" for the ball).

Post #10, Sep 27, 2003 07:17:33




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DaveG
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dmalek wrote:
maybe you dont need 1/500 ...

this is only if you really want to freeze the movement. you can use 1/125 or 1/200 particularly if the players are running towards you. also if you want to show the speed of the ball for example by having it blurry, or one leg of a player blurry at the time of hitting the ball.

this is an easy job if you use 1/500 because both action is frozen and camera shake is not an issue. but if you try to be creative then i think you need shoot "at the limits of what is possible" ie low speed, low ISO, camera shake risk, risk of getting blurry pictures). To avoid coming back home with "no good picture" you need to shoot lots of them, because it's hard to be sure you get a good one during the games, or notice a framing issue or bothering thing in the frame (for example IMG_8727.jpg where only part of the ball is shown and players in the background look annoying to be me, without them you'd get a very graphic picture like in IMG_8728.jpg).

yours pics are great by the way (i like IMG_8728.jpg because of the faces and the fact that this pic shows that they both are "fighting" for the ball).

I think that at 1/500 you will still get "extremity blurr" and that would be the ball in the air or perhaps the quarterback's hand as he throws the ball. But for 99% of sports shots you want it to be as sharp as possible and that means using the fastest shutterpeed you can.

Creativity in sports photography is to capture the essence of the game. Most games involve individual conflict and that's where the pictures lie. The strain to catch the ball or to fight off a blocker. If you get this you get the game.

Slow panning shots are something I would equate with spices in the stew: You should try it but a little goes a long way.

Post #11, Sep 27, 2003 07:43:35


"There's never time to do it right. But there's always time to do it over."
Canon 5D, 50D; 16-35 f2.8L, 24-105 f4L IS, 50 f1.4, 100 f2.8 Macro, 70-200 f2.8L, 300mm f2.8L IS.

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dmalek
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DaveG wrote:
I think that at 1/500 you will still get "extremity blurr" and that would be the ball in the air or perhaps the quarterback's hand as he throws the ball. But for 99% of sports shots you want it to be as sharp as possible and that means using the fastest shutterpeed you can.

Creativity in sports photography is to capture the essence of the game. Most games involve individual conflict and that's where the pictures lie. The strain to catch the ball or to fight off a blocker. If you get this you get the game.

Slow panning shots are something I would equate with spices in the stew: You should try it but a little goes a long way.

I do agree with the "essence of the game" issue. Also for the kids playing an idea would be to show either that there are really kids (they dont take it as seriously as adults do) or exactly the contrary (show that this is as serious as adult games, or that they do have pro players moves).

In fact i'd say that the issue is not necessarily the speed, it's all about what you are trying the show and the idea you have before shooting and being able to have the viewer feel alike when looking at the pics.

Technically speaking for me (only) it's true to say that action shots are linked to high speed, otherwise we wouldnt use Tv mode. But the messages in this threed seemed to be focusing a lot on speed ;)

Post #12, Sep 27, 2003 08:00:23




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Gibmeister
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Here are a couple that I took at 1/500th, F3.5 and ISO 400. No monopod yet. Canon 10D, Sigma 70-200, F2.8, APO, HSM, No teleconverter. Please give advice.
[IMG]http://images.fotopic.​net ...308527&outx=600&oq=​0[IMG]external link
[IMG]http://images.fotopic.​net/?id=1308526&out=60​0&oq=0[IMG]external link

Post #13, Sep 27, 2003 10:59:09




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dmalek
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i'm concerned by the backgrounds of the pics, have you checked it before shooting ?

maybe you need 300 mm as well :)

Post #14, Sep 27, 2003 13:27:59




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jon.s
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i do motorsports photography and lots of other sports but unfortunately i am in a rush so i will log in tomorow and explain more sorry for not being to much help tonight.

Post #15, Sep 27, 2003 13:46:25


Canon Eos 1D MKIV,MK2, Canon Eos 40D, Canon 16-35mm F2.8 MK2 L USM, Canon 24-70mm F2.8 L USM, Canon 70-200mm F2.8 L IS USM, Canon 300mm F4 IS USM, Tokina 10-17mm F3.5 Fish-Eye, Canon 1.4x Converter, Canon 28-135mm IS USM, Canon 580 EXii Flashgun, Lots of Sandisks... and plenty more rubbish cluttering up the Tamrac expidition 8.
www.jmsphotographic.co​mexternal link

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