Jacoby Ellsbury on the road to Boston

[MJPhotos24]

Originally Posted by elrey2375

Never said I gave anything away for free and this was before the confusion about shooting it for the university, so you can't fall back on that in this instance. I think the entire thing has stemmed from your misunderstanding of the first post you quoted in response to one of mine. I said that when you are building a portfolio, you can't expect to get paid at the same time. You shoot for free, for yourself. I never talked about giving away the images and in fact I agreed that use should be paid for. You went off the deep end telling me I'm a know-nothing college kid and you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm glad that your way works for you, I really am. You seem like an angry guy though. You throw people's business cards away because you don't agree with them? How about finding out what's going on first? I was simply trying to back up the OP when you jumped his ass about shooting it for free. The team has a photographer, the OP was shooting for himself, how is he hurting anyone? He's already said he doesn't want to do this as a career, yet you keep shoving these missives down everyone's throat, laying out the rules of how it's got to be. Good day, sir.

PS - what 'personal' attacks have I made? You were the first to lob a personal attack, calling me a know-nothing college kid. Sometimes, I swear I hate the internet.

1) You have said you work for free in other threads and then justified it saying it lead to paying gigs, this is exactly what I said - go back and look. Though do have to say that sometimes I will use "you" instead of "someone" when it should be, so that can cause confusion. You doesn't always mean you in particular, my mistake wording wise that can be taken literal as directed only at one person when it's not. Just the English language that you hear all the time, you is not always YOU. However, you DID say this in other threads and probably why you just had to respond in this one taking it off course from what it originally was about, carrying it over from there.

2) You've never worked in this field, working for the college paper while in college is not what the OP is doing. OP is shooting the exact field I work, not the LR college paper - if that was the case you can say how it works based off your experience, what it takes, etc. as you've done it (actually so did I at my college but ended it pretty quickly with much better offerings on the table at the time). You posted without knowing anything about the situation, go back and look as the first few posts since joining had to try and explain what was happening. This is not general, this is VERY specific to the place and what the OP is shooting until you took it off course.

Never called you a no nothing college kid, called you a college kid that knows it all because it's how you come off and how most act in college. See it all the time, was one at a time that wanted to do things my way and others weren't changing my mind - nowadays things are much different even though it wasn't that long ago, work with a LOT of photographers getting different view points, opinions, what they did and worked or failed completely - some newbs and some long time pros. Things have only grown since taking that approach, you don't see to want to do that and that's fine.

3) What personal attacks, your first post you come in saying greedy photographer only shooting for money yet quote me saying the EXACT opposite, that's not a personal attack? If I was a greedy photographer you think I'd be on this board giving out advice? Telling people how they live their life as angry or upset or disappointed is not personal attack? Telling someone to get over themselves but yet can't quote ONCE to back what you're telling them they are saying, when they're not actually saying it. Calling someone an angry person without knowing one thing about them? Seriously, these are not personal attacks? Yea OK.

4) How about some of your contradictions....you can give your opinion and it can be taken any way the reader wants - so you say, but others do the same and it's bossing people around...someone quotes you and answers it directly then it's that person perceiving it wrong, not that your opinion may be wrong or worded poorly, nope never you (again others perceive your words wrong but you always perceive others right?)...I'm seriously waiting for you to quote me once saying it has to be done this or that way - you highlighted some words that mean nothing, let's see the quotes! Hell if you read around the words you highlighted it's saying the exact opposite of what you claim.

5) Yes, I throw business cards away from people I do not want to work with, has nothing to do with that I don't agree with them. It has everything to do with business, you yet again assume (how come you can assume but if someone else does you attack them again?) I don't get to know them before tossing it? Almost always get the cards at a game, talk and shoot the game with them, almost always good times and sometimes you just get people that really should not be there, hell even gotten a few thrown out.

Anyways, they hand me a card and say if I need anything let them know, but me as a business owner asks why would I want to work with you when you're undercutting me and the business? You give your images away for nothing and my job is to make you money off your images? This is another example of you doesn't actually mean YOU in particular btw, so we're clear. Of course I throw them away, not going to work with someone who is negative for the business. Tried to help some in the past and it's only hurt the business so now more strict in those wanting to help grow and succeed.

6) Internet does suck, I know I come off blunt and to the point - if you read it as angry that's how it's going to come off in your mind. 99% of the time it's not even close to true, just meant to be blunt and to the point - not going to sit here and baby talk or beat around the bushes just because others want to read it in a preconceived way to fit what they want it to be. You're going to read anything that way, that's proven.

7) Moderator can delete all our posts here after he came in with the personal attack and let it go back to what it was about, why in personal opinions some are keepers and others are not. Done and out, gone to the dark side anyways!


**EDIT**Written before the last response, can add the last comment to your list of attempted personal attacks,

[kenjancef]

I actually unsubscribed from this thread a few weeks ago, and been monitoring it here-and-there since then. This has actually caused me to limit my time here, because I can't believe what this post has become. I apologize to all.

Here is my last response:

In post #10, I did say I worked for free, but I got the media pass from a group, and they are the only ones that get the images. And since I can't sell them, I printed a few to give to the barber of a few of the team members that he cuts hair for, and THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!! At this point I don't think I'm good enough to have anyone buy them anyway, nevermind give out for free.

AND.... in that same post, I also said I want to learn more, and asked what I could do better, and THAT WAS NEVER ANSWERED!!!!!!!! How am I supposed to learn anything when all that happens is that people attack others and nothing is accomplished Couldn't it have just been a simple critique??

So again, I apologize for this post, and it'll probably be my last for a while. I'll let the media pass run out, since the season is over in a little over a month, and call it a day...

[elrey2375]

Originally Posted by kenjancef

I actually unsubscribed from this thread a few weeks ago, and been monitoring it here-and-there since then. This has actually caused me to limit my time here, because I can't believe what this post has become. I apologize to all.

Here is my last response:

In post #10, I did say I worked for free, but I got the media pass from a group, and they are the only ones that get the images. And since I can't sell them, I printed a few to give to the barber of a few of the team members that he cuts hair for, and THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!! At this point I don't think I'm good enough to have anyone buy them anyway, nevermind give out for free.

AND.... in that same post, I also said I want to learn more, and asked what I could do better, and THAT WAS NEVER ANSWERED!!!!!!!! How am I supposed to learn anything when all that happens is that people attack others and nothing is accomplished Couldn't it have just been a simple critique??

So again, I apologize for this post, and it'll probably be my last for a while. I'll let the media pass run out, since the season is over in a little over a month, and call it a day...

Firstly, you're not the one who needs to be apologizing so let me apologize for my part in getting the thread off track. Any problem I had with another member should have been handled privately. I don't want this to cause you to visit the site less. If you initially wanted advice on the photos themselves, I think you're more than on the right track. The only way to improve is to keep shooting, so I genuinely hope you will continue to show us your photos. The more you shoot the more you learn what to watch for and where to be positioned in order to get the best shots.

[MJPhotos24]

Originally Posted by kenjancef

I actually unsubscribed from this thread a few weeks ago, and been monitoring it here-and-there since then. This has actually caused me to limit my time here, because I can't believe what this post has become. I apologize to all.

Here is my last response:

In post #10, I did say I worked for free, but I got the media pass from a group, and they are the only ones that get the images. And since I can't sell them, I printed a few to give to the barber of a few of the team members that he cuts hair for, and THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!! At this point I don't think I'm good enough to have anyone buy them anyway, nevermind give out for free.

AND.... in that same post, I also said I want to learn more, and asked what I could do better, and THAT WAS NEVER ANSWERED!!!!!!!! How am I supposed to learn anything when all that happens is that people attack others and nothing is accomplished Couldn't it have just been a simple critique??

So again, I apologize for this post, and it'll probably be my last for a while. I'll let the media pass run out, since the season is over in a little over a month, and call it a day...

Ditto to what was said, but also want to say you did get advice before this thing took a turn off the cliff. You learn from opposing arguments, hell it's what this country is built off of - right and left meeting in the middle (NO political comments now folks!) So you listen to both sides and take the best of each, nothing more and nothing less. Anyways, if you take away the comments about Jacoby's stats and the rest is why this or that is a keeper and why it's not with explanations, how to build a portfolio without letting a third party take advantage, talks about different styles of shooting, etc. So there were direct answers to your questions well before this thing took a turn.

Also, not sure why you don't think you're not good enough for people to buy the images...if they're good enough for someone to use then they're good enough to be paid for in my opinion (not sure who said that originally, but liked it). Personally this is what I'd do since you've already shot for the third party - let the pass expire as you shoot, tell them that next year you'd be happy to shoot for them again but you need compensation. They say yes, there you go a paying client...they say no, and that's where you shoot as a fan or find a new client to shoot for, or even farther shoot different sports/levels. You took a risk and it didn't pay off with them in particular, who cares, there's better clients!

As stated before you hear no a LOT more than you hear yes. For example this past year covered an event and contacted about 50-60 teams...out of that about thirty five didn't even bother to respond, five did with a no, ten or so said yes. So 10/60...a .167 batting average that is probably one of the best months of the year! Forget this whole not good enough thing and start mapping out a plan like described on page three, here it is again...

1) Ask yourself what you want to shoot? (sports, weddings, events, PJ)

2) Ask yourself if you want to only cover that sport/level/area? (hard to limit)

3) Research who covers what you want to shoot? (newspapers, magazines, etc)

4) Research some more and find out about who covers what you want to shoot. In other words after you find out who covers that you then find out about them...do they offer good deals, can you make money off it, what rights do they want, who are their clients if an agency, is it worth it, etc. May even be spec based, which is a whole different argument as some do very well with it and others not so much, but better than allowing usage for credit - least your practice isn't getting used free for someone else's advantage.

5) Put a portfolio together without undercutting yourself and the business.

6) Present that portfolio keeping it updated until you do find some clients and build.

7) Repeat steps 3-6.

[kenjancef]

Originally Posted by elrey2375

Firstly, you're not the one who needs to be apologizing so let me apologize for my part in getting the thread off track. Any problem I had with another member should have been handled privately. I don't want this to cause you to visit the site less. If you initially wanted advice on the photos themselves, I think you're more than on the right track. The only way to improve is to keep shooting, so I genuinely hope you will continue to show us your photos. The more you shoot the more you learn what to watch for and where to be positioned in order to get the best shots.

Thanks.

Not sure how much shooting I'll do in August anyway. A family vacation, a half-marathon, and other commitments are getting in the way. I'll do the best I can.

[kenjancef]

Originally Posted by MJPhotos24

Ditto to what was said, but also want to say you did get advice before this thing took a turn off the cliff. You learn from opposing arguments, hell it's what this country is built off of - right and left meeting in the middle (NO political comments now folks!) So you listen to both sides and take the best of each, nothing more and nothing less. Anyways, if you take away the comments about Jacoby's stats and the rest is why this or that is a keeper and why it's not with explanations, how to build a portfolio without letting a third party take advantage, talks about different styles of shooting, etc. So there were direct answers to your questions well before this thing took a turn.

Also, not sure why you don't think you're not good enough for people to buy the images...if they're good enough for someone to use then they're good enough to be paid for in my opinion (not sure who said that originally, but liked it). Personally this is what I'd do since you've already shot for the third party - let the pass expire as you shoot, tell them that next year you'd be happy to shoot for them again but you need compensation. They say yes, there you go a paying client...they say no, and that's where you shoot as a fan or find a new client to shoot for, or even farther shoot different sports/levels. You took a risk and it didn't pay off with them in particular, who cares, there's better clients!

As stated before you hear no a LOT more than you hear yes. For example this past year covered an event and contacted about 50-60 teams...out of that about thirty five didn't even bother to respond, five did with a no, ten or so said yes. So 10/60...a .167 batting average that is probably one of the best months of the year! Forget this whole not good enough thing and start mapping out a plan like described on page three, here it is again...

1) Ask yourself what you want to shoot? (sports, weddings, events, PJ)

2) Ask yourself if you want to only cover that sport/level/area? (hard to limit)

3) Research who covers what you want to shoot? (newspapers, magazines, etc)

4) Research some more and find out about who covers what you want to shoot. In other words after you find out who covers that you then find out about them...do they offer good deals, can you make money off it, what rights do they want, who are their clients if an agency, is it worth it, etc. May even be spec based, which is a whole different argument as some do very well with it and others not so much, but better than allowing usage for credit - least your practice isn't getting used free for someone else's advantage.

5) Put a portfolio together without undercutting yourself and the business.

6) Present that portfolio keeping it updated until you do find some clients and build.

7) Repeat steps 3-6.

I did see you post that earlier, and I thank you for that. I have contacted a bunch of local teams and such, and have gotten a lot of no's, which I expect. I'm not afraid of no's. And I'm not afraid of asking. And I will turn away if they do want free.

I need to ask a question: So I know that I'm not supposed to sell any shots I do of AAA Baseball. But what if a media outlet wants to buy them? What do I do? And am I undercutting the team photographers by selling? Because, as I said before, I'm not there to get in their way. I have NEVER been approached by anyone to buy, so this part of it is new for me. I still think I need to work on skills, so that's why I wanted the critique. I'd rather have someone say "Hey, great work! Come work for us!" instead of selling outright. Does that make sense?

Thanks again.

[elrey2375]

Originally Posted by kenjancef

I did see you post that earlier, and I thank you for that. I have contacted a bunch of local teams and such, and have gotten a lot of no's, which I expect. I'm not afraid of no's. And I'm not afraid of asking. And I will turn away if they do want free.

I need to ask a question: So I know that I'm not supposed to sell any shots I do of AAA Baseball. But what if a media outlet wants to buy them? What do I do? And am I undercutting the team photographers by selling? Because, as I said before, I'm not there to get in their way. I have NEVER been approached by anyone to buy, so this part of it is new for me. I still think I need to work on skills, so that's why I wanted the critique. I'd rather have someone say "Hey, great work! Come work for us!" instead of selling outright. Does that make sense?

Thanks again.

MJ will correct me if I'm wrong but what pass were you on when you shot the photos. If its a different media outlet then I would find out what your obligation is regarding the outlet that gave you the pass. Sometimes there can be exclusivity language in a contract for a certain period of time.

[MJPhotos24]

Originally Posted by kenjancef

I did see you post that earlier, and I thank you for that. I have contacted a bunch of local teams and such, and have gotten a lot of no's, which I expect. I'm not afraid of no's. And I'm not afraid of asking. And I will turn away if they do want free.

I need to ask a question: So I know that I'm not supposed to sell any shots I do of AAA Baseball. But what if a media outlet wants to buy them? What do I do? And am I undercutting the team photographers by selling? Because, as I said before, I'm not there to get in their way. I have NEVER been approached by anyone to buy, so this part of it is new for me. I still think I need to work on skills, so that's why I wanted the critique. I'd rather have someone say "Hey, great work! Come work for us!" instead of selling outright. Does that make sense?

Thanks again.

Depends what they made you sign for the credential, if anything? If you didn't sign anything, or just signed the basic credential agreement, then you can sell to media outlets all you want as first amendment rights are protected in the agreement. There is an agreement they have but believe it's only given to those they pay, and it is a very bad work for hire type agreement where you lose all your rights that many refused to sign.

You can also have your images represented by any agency you want if can find an agency that will let you submit. Obviously getting into AP/Getty/USPW, etc. can be difficult but there's smaller ones out there like ICON/Cal Sport Media. The larger agencies get used more often with more clients searching, but the smaller ones are run by good people and can learn from. Spec based, so you don't get paid unless you make a sale which is a whole new debate - some do well and others not so much. MLB or major sports spec sales suck usually through spec just because there's so many people at the game shooting already. You can read about that here a bit. MANY will try to make it sound like spec in general is just horrible, personally do not agree and think it depends HEAVILY on what you're shooting.

Still say the best place for sales though is youth sports, T&I, the little kids, etc. Just started a company to hit that market more, believe it's still the best out there.