Wedding Contract " Acceptable Image"

[PhotoMatte]

Originally Posted by Christopher Steven b

You said 'Even if I pose and light them exactly...they just won't look the same'.

Precisely ! That's why I am advocating a clause that protects you in exactly that case.

Yeah, you're right. There is no standard. But you're basically suggesting that if the photos returned actually aren't satisfactory, the clients have no recourse. That protects the photographer alright--and it also is incredibly unfair to the client.

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that most of the folks in this thread all do solid work--always. But just as we have to have some kind of policy regarding, say, our getting sick and not being able to shoot, we should have a policy for the extraordinarily rare occasion that our photos are not up to our own standards (and simultaneously a clause to protect us in cases in which it was not our fault).

It seems to me that to simply say 'My photos are always great, so I don't need a policy' is like saying 'I'm never sick, so I don't need a backup plan in case I am'.

But, yeah, maybe I'm way off here. I'm open to suggestions.

We're going to need our own thread here in a bit...

When I had my contract drawn up by my attorney, he strongly suggested I make it as broad as possible. There just isn't a clause that I can put in that will guarantee every client's satisfaction, in which case it makes sense not to include any at all. It does have a clause guaranteeing delivery of images and my availability on the wedding day; a full refund is given in those instances (although I have yet to have to resort to that, knock on wood, over the last 9 years).

[PhotoMatte]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas

Aren't we supposed to be able to guarantee a quality product?

We're supposed to guarantee a product. The word quality is so subjective as to be unusable in a contract. The clients can see your quality during the initial interview and/or they can contact previous clients. I've been having this same discussion elsewhere in this thread and can understand the clients point of view; I'm just not sure how one can guarantee 'quality.'
I have multiple backups of camera bodies and lenses, as well as CF cards and batteries, so my gear is always available. If an extreme emergency comes up and I can't photograph the wedding (which has never happened), I have a group of 9 other professionals I work with who can take my place (and I would still give a full refund, as stated in my contract).
I go over my contract with each client, letting them know what I will provide and what the contract means for them.

[Christopher Steven b]

Matt--you said: "The clients can see your quality during the initial interview and/or they can contact previous clients."

But the problem here is that you're saying that if you don't match that quality, tough sheisse for the client. What is the point of them getting an idea of your quality at the initial interview if you don't, in the end, deliver that quality ?

In short, some seem to be saying 'quality is subjective, therefore, the client can never ever be justified in claiming that the work I did for them was unacceptable quality'.

I find this odd.

Originally Posted by PhotoMatte

We're supposed to guarantee a product. The word quality is so subjective as to be unusable in a contract. The clients can see your quality during the initial interview and/or they can contact previous clients. I've been having this same discussion elsewhere in this thread and can understand the clients point of view; I'm just not sure how one can guarantee 'quality.'
I have multiple backups of camera bodies and lenses, as well as CF cards and batteries, so my gear is always available. If an extreme emergency comes up and I can't photograph the wedding (which has never happened), I have a group of 9 other professionals I work with who can take my place (and I would still give a full refund, as stated in my contract).
I go over my contract with each client, letting them know what I will provide and what the contract means for them.

[YankeeMom]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas

As I was visiting this thread before, I received an email from a client I shot a Christening for. They were very happy with the photographs I delivered and asked to have the shots I didn't provide them.

This is extremely stressful for me. I don't want to give them those shots! It states in my contract that I determine what to provide, but I don't want to turn a happy client into an unhappy client. Don't they understand that the shots I didn't provide are no good? I'm worried that they won't understand that I can't take a perfect photograph EVERY TIME. I'm just not there yet..

Under no circumstance. Not even if they offered to pay for them. If you don't include them there must be a good reason, period. (I would tell them that they were deleted.)

[KhanhD]

Originally Posted by Gomar

So what do you deliver? Pizza w/double cheese+pepperoni?
If you were doing my wedding, and dont deliver the photos, I would sue the heck out of you.

And you would lose, because I didnt fail on my end of the contract that you signed (And likely didnt read)

Originally Posted by JohnThomas

I understand the concept of not guaranteeing 'X' amount of photographs, but I don't understand how you can get away with stating you may not deliver photographs at all.

Isn't that why couples hire professionals and don't ask a friend to shoot their wedding? Aren't we supposed to be able to guarantee a quality product?

If the photographer I hired to shoot my wedding stated in his contract that there was a minuscule chance I would owe him thousands of dollars even if he didn't deliver photographs, I would have walked away.

My contracts are worded very carefully.

They dont say "No photos are guaranteed." Rather, the guarantee is just left out and it is implied that I will be delivering.

-I will be at X location from Y time to Z time.
-I will be backed by 0-3 secondary photographers.
-If for some reason I can not attend, a photographer in my network with a similar portfolio will fill. A short list of photographers are named.

Its all about the wording.

Im not alone in this. Even Tim, one of the most respected wedding photographers here on POTN, agrees.

[KhanhD]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas

As I was visiting this thread before, I received an email from a client I shot a Christening for. They were very happy with the photographs I delivered and asked to have the shots I didn't provide them.

This is extremely stressful for me. I don't want to give them those shots! It states in my contract that I determine what to provide, but I don't want to turn a happy client into an unhappy client. Don't they understand that the shots I didn't provide are no good? I'm worried that they won't understand that I can't take a perfect photograph EVERY TIME. I'm just not there yet..

How do they know there are other photos?

I rename all of my files before delivery. Format is (ClientLastName)_000. I only use as many digits as necessary. (As in, dont do 0001 if youre only delivering 30 photos)

[Christopher Steven b]

I can't believe no photographer here is willing to address the points that I make. Making an appeal to authority (saying 'Tim says it's so, so that's that') doesn't address the ideas we're discussing here. Why not address the ideas ? Why not address the questions I'm asking ?

edit: alright: It looks like I'm edging sort of outside the topic of the OP, so I'll bow out and start my own thread.

[KhanhD]

I thought you were directing at someone else, but Ill bite.

Originally Posted by Christopher Steven b

^ I'm not so sure I agree with you that saying nothing about image quality in your contract helps you avoid legal headaches down the road.

What if your shoot doesn't match up to your past work in terms of quality ? This may be because of equipment failure or some other mistake on your part. As unlikely as this is to happen given your experience, what would you do in this case ? What would you have done if it happened at your 4th or 5th wedding ?

Furthermore, and more to the main point, what if your photos don't match up to your previous work but the reason was because of restrictions at the venue, weather, people not co-operating, odd-lighting at the venue etc. I think it behooves you to have something in your contract that covers you in this case.

IMO, I dont want to give people ideas. Especially when it comes to something that becomes opinionated.

There is no reason for my work to be of an quality lower than that in my portfolio. When I did weddings, my system of equipment was outrageously redundant. I would show up with 5-6 bodies, 4 speedlights, 4 strobes, an array of lenses with overlapping focal lengths, 2 dozen memory cards, a laptop, multiple external hard drives, etc etc. This is mentioned in the contract, that I will be using professional quality equipment with backups. If I am sick, whether physically, emotionally or mentally, I will not show up at all, I have a photographer with similar skill and portfolio to fill. Between these two, I have never been in a situation where sub-portfolio quality images were delivered that were my fault. Of course, I generally wont even deliver sub-portfolio quality images at all.

Issues with the venue, the guests, etc are out of my control.

Again, the possibility of not delivering is not mentioned in my contract.

Ultimately, its very opinionated. Regardless of what the contract says, If I deliver sub-par photos or dont deliver at all, thats going to suck for my publicity, so I avoid it at all costs. Ive never had a case where I did not deliver at all.

[JohnThomas]

Originally Posted by KhanhD

How do they know there are other photos?

I rename all of my files before delivery. Format is (ClientLastName)_000. I only use as many digits as necessary. (As in, dont do 0001 if youre only delivering 30 photos)

I do this as well. I guess they just knew that I must have left some out. Or they took a guess and I fell for it.

Getting back to what an acceptable image is, this is has been a very interesting conversation for me. I understand that the term "quality" is very subjective, but I just felt coming into the profession that we should be able to guarantee a product that is somehow measurably, or should I say visually better than uncle Joes photos . Then again, one photo being visually better than the next is also subjective.

When you really think it, it makes sense to not guarantee anything other then the fact that you'll show up and do your job, and if you can't you'll have someone else fill in for you. Its beginning to make sense to me.

[KhanhD]

Right. What makes a photo being visually better? Put up 2 photos, ask 10 people which is "better" and youll get 10 different answers.

[JohnThomas]

Originally Posted by Christopher Steven b

What if your shoot doesn't match up to your past work in terms of quality ? This may be because of equipment failure or some other mistake on your part. As unlikely as this is to happen given your experience, what would you do in this case ? What would you have done if it happened at your 4th or 5th wedding ?

Honestly, I don't know what I would do in this situation. All I can say is that I review my photos as often as I can (I know a lot of the more experienced photographers here don't spend time reviewing shots during their events, but as a novice I feel like I should) to see if I need to make any adjusts to make sure I can deliver a product that aligns with my portfolio.

Originally Posted by Christopher Steven b

Furthermore, and more to the main point, what if your photos don't match up to your previous work but the reason was because of restrictions at the venue, weather, people not co-operating, odd-lighting at the venue etc. I think it behooves you to have something in your contract that covers you in this case.

This is easy to answer, and to deal with (in my opinion). If I couldn't do my job because of the reasons you noted above, I would immediately discuss that with my clients to explain the situation. If they know about these restrictions up front, you can work with them on delivering a product they'll be happy with. There wouldn't be any surprises in that case. It's happened to me in the past, where I reacted as explained and was able to manage everyones expectations of the shoot.

[KhanhD]

Take this photo, originally posted by TorBang Photography on Facebook, for example.


As photographers, most of us will agree the left photo is better. Images in our portfolio are similar.

HOWEVER, the lay person? Some will argue the right photo is better, being able to identify the guests, etc.

Have you seen the website youarenotaphotographer.com? To us, those photos posted are horrendous, however, there are photographers (and clients) who believe those photos are great.

Opinions are like buttholes. Everyone has one. Most are full of poop

[Steve of Cornubia]

Covering yourself as a photographer makes sense, not just because people see things differently, but because you can never know what the client's prejudices are. It's not just about the classic rules of photography - it's about perceptions.

A client might choose you because she's seen your work and likes your style, but then hates what you give her. I've had this happen. The problem wasn't MY images though, it was that the lady in question had seen beautiful women in their gorgeous wedding gowns and expected to look like them, when in fact she hated the way she looked and a wedding dress made no difference. Her new husband and her family all said she looked great (and she did), but there was no way to convince her. She had a problem with her body image. As it turned out, they accepted the photos graciously and said I'd done a good job, but the bride wasn't happy. Amazing, but sad too. She was a truly good-looking girl, but with issues.

[PhotoMatte]

Originally Posted by Christopher Steven b

I can't believe no photographer here is willing to address the points that I make.

I've addressed all the points repeatedly, see my posts above...

[PhotoMatte]

If someone can give me a definitive, completely objective definition of 'quality wedding photos' I guess I'll include that in my contract. If not, there's simply no way to include that in a contract!
Let me give an example: I used to be a member of the WPJA (the Wedding PhotoJournalistic Association). I received multiple awards from them over the years. However, I decided to let my membership lapse last year because I felt their standards were slipping. Some of their quarterly contest-winning images were ones I wouldn't even show my clients, let alone upload to the WPJA site. Does this mean that the quality of those images was bad? In my opinion, yes. In others' opinions, no.
Another example: Joe Grunge really likes Pearl Jam. He's listened to all their music and bought all their albums. Pearl Jam has a concert in Joe's city and he buys tickets. The concert is over and Joe feels shortchanged; they didn't play Yellow Ledbetter and/or there wasn't a long enough guitar solo on Jeremy. Does he demand a refund from Eddie and the boys? I don't think so.
As professional wedding photographers, we are not making a product that can be replicated again and again; there's no assembly line, no 'secret recipe' or anything like that. Each wedding is unique. Our style only comes through after we've shot scores of weddings. If a client likes that style, they will like the photos I take of their own wedding.