Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Read More.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras
Thread started 04 May 2003 (Sunday) 07:58
Prev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as registered member)

10D focus issue demystified

 
Peter ­ Hoskins
Hatchling
4 posts
Joined Apr 2003
May 06, 2003 16:48 |  #16

Well, what can I say. Firstly I should say that I am not Canon bashing, I have been a keen photographer for 40 years and have been using Canon equipment for 20 of those.

I bought the 10D 3 weeks ago. I was instantly aware that after auto focus confirmation, with only the centre point selected, the image in the viewfinder could be brought into sharper focus by turning the manual focus ring slightly clockwise. I had never experienced this with my EOS 5, RT, 1n or D60.

Ignoring this, I spent a few days taking general shots and it became apparent that where I had selected a wide aperture to isolate a subject (I always use aperture priority mode) the results were not focused on the point I had chosen, all lenses exhibiting front focus. For instance auto focusing on the eyes would actually produce a sharp nose. At apertures smaller than f4 the discrepancy could not be seen as it was taken up by the increased depth of field.

I did tripod mounted tests using test targets in the manner suggested on several of these forums and they confirmed that all my Canon lenses were front focusing. At one point I managed to convince myself that I didn't have a problem but realised that this was because I had started to focus slightly behind the desired point in an attempt to convince myself that I had no problem.

I then decided that I was expecting too much from autofocus and what did it matter, because where I chose to use a large aperture I could focus manually. I'm used to this with my Hasselblad 500CM, Mamiya 645 and Leica 11F rangefinder. The viewfinder in the 10D is not especially clear (dioptre adjustment made) and certainly not as clear as the RT or 1n, but nonetheless it is possible to see the relatively sharp point as you focus through it.

Unfortunately, what I saw is not what I got. Turning the focusing ring slightly clockwise and bringing the image into sharper focus in the viewfinder actually produced worse results. By experimenting with incremental manual focusing I found sharp focus by turning the focusing ring anti-clockwise, putting the image out of focus in the viewfinder but producing a sharp image at the sensor plane.

Accepting the limitations of autofocus is one thing but being unable to focus manually (I admit I'm talking wide open) is another. You have to be able to rely on one or the other. So I called it a day and phoned Cameraworld and they exchanged the body without question. My original had an 03 serial number and the replacement an 04 serial number.

The result? The new body has the same front focus problem at wide apertures and the viewfinder has an obvious misalignment of the optical system rendering the top of the screen in different focus from the bottom.

I still love this camera and intend to persevere. I phoned Canon today and they were very helpful. I'm, dropping the camera off at their Elstree service centre and will see what happens.




LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as registered member)
brault
Member
69 posts
Joined Apr 2003
May 06, 2003 17:22 |  #17

Have you thought of shipping yourself to the Canon service center? :)

Frank B

martcol wrote:

fredlord wrote:
make sure you are manually focusing correctly.

I got really paranoid about my 10D and autofocus! I did a test over weekend taking pictures on a tripod, of a text on white page of paper with a strong pattern and a line drawn in centre. Manual focus then auto from different angles with lens wide open - Canon 50mm 1.8. I took it in turns with my 14 yr old daughter to manual focus (younger eyes, much younger!) 8)

If anything gave inconsistent results it was my manual focussing! I think I need callobrating! :D

Martin




LOG IN TO REPLY
pigasus
Member
pigasus's Avatar
219 posts
Joined Mar 2002
Cambridgeshire, UK
May 06, 2003 17:25 |  #18

Peter Hoskins wrote:
I still love this camera and intend to persevere. I phoned Canon today and they were very helpful. I'm, dropping the camera off at their Elstree service centre and will see what happens.

Peter, please keep us informed of progress. I'm still on the fence about the 10D and good reports about Elstree's success at eliminating the problem would be very settling.

Thanks,


Sally
"I'm the only 'bent in the village"

LOG IN TO REPLY
martcol
Senior Member
martcol's Avatar
866 posts
Joined May 2002
Kent, UK
May 07, 2003 00:24 |  #19

pigasus wrote:
Peter, please keep us informed of progress...
Thanks,

Likewise Peter; very interested to hear how you get on and how Canon perform!

Good Luck

Martin


"All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
Richard Avedon
www.imagesandwords.org​.ukexternal link

LOG IN TO REPLY
Peter ­ Hoskins
Hatchling
4 posts
Joined Apr 2003
May 09, 2003 06:17 |  #20

Just got back from dropping off the 10D at the Elstree service centre and I must say I'm impressed. They gave me almost an hour of their time, did some on the spot checks and couldn't have been more helpful.

They told me that adjusting the front focus was no problem.
More of a problem was the viewfinder because no-one could see a problem. This seems to be because I use it at the end of its +1.5 dioptre range and this is where the problem manifests itself.

So, I've left it there for the focus alignment and in spite of the fact that they couldn't see the problem they are going to change the focusing screen and lens element in the viewfinder.

What more could I ask for!




LOG IN TO REPLY
Pekka
THREAD ­ STARTER
El General Moderator
Pekka's Avatar
17,108 posts
Gallery: 33 photos
Joined Mar 2001
Hellsinki, Finland
Jun 08, 2003 17:13 |  #21

bumping this up.


The Forum Boss, El General Moderator
AMASS 1.4 Changelog (installed here now)

LOG IN TO REPLY
DVWarrior
Member
74 posts
Joined Jan 2003
Jun 10, 2003 05:54 |  #22

Pekka...Don't hit out at Canon...

Fact... Spend £1400 the most many of you will ever spend on a camera and get bum soft focus results !!!

Fact...Who make this 10D camera...oops could it be Canon...are they dropping QA to rush out back orders ?

Fact...If a 35mm zoom lens works on an EOS-3 without any adjustments it should then work on a 10D...!!!

Don't patronise us Pekka nor tell us how to vent our anger...the D60 was crap because of focusing errors and the 10D has not been sorted beyond the D60.
A lot of these chaps have put their hobbies and relationships on the line to get the 10D its not a cheap option...If Canon can't guarentee the 10D being able to focus with at least Canon lenses then it should be recalled till the problem is solved...instead they cock up the D60 leave a lot of disattified customers behind then out of the blue appears the 10D with the exact...same ...focus problem as the D60...

FACT...There is no point using any SLR digital camera if you canot trust the picture it takes...SAD BUT TRUE.




LOG IN TO REPLY
martcol
Senior Member
martcol's Avatar
866 posts
Joined May 2002
Kent, UK
Jun 10, 2003 06:02 |  #23

DVWarrior wrote:
...then out of the blue appears the 10D with the exact...same ...focus problem as the D60...

FACT...There is no point using any SLR digital camera if you canot trust the picture it takes...SAD BUT TRUE.

I kind of agree but, though I didn't have a D60, it doesn't seem that the 10D's problems are exactly the same. However, It is a worry that you spen such a lot of money on this kit and results can be.... er inconsistent.

I still think the 10D is wonderful.

Martin


"All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
Richard Avedon
www.imagesandwords.org​.ukexternal link

LOG IN TO REPLY
Pekka
THREAD ­ STARTER
El General Moderator
Pekka's Avatar
17,108 posts
Gallery: 33 photos
Joined Mar 2001
Hellsinki, Finland
Jun 10, 2003 06:33 |  #24

DVWarrior wrote:
Pekka...Don't hit out at Canon...

Fact... Spend £1400 the most many of you will ever spend on a camera and get bum soft focus results !!!

Fact...Who make this 10D camera...oops could it be Canon...are they dropping QA to rush out back orders ?

Fact...If a 35mm zoom lens works on an EOS-3 without any adjustments it should then work on a 10D...!!!

Don't patronise us Pekka nor tell us how to vent our anger...the D60 was crap because of focusing errors and the 10D has not been sorted beyond the D60.
A lot of these chaps have put their hobbies and relationships on the line to get the 10D its not a cheap option...If Canon can't guarentee the 10D being able to focus with at least Canon lenses then it should be recalled till the problem is solved...instead they cock up the D60 leave a lot of disattified customers behind then out of the blue appears the 10D with the exact...same ...focus problem as the D60...

FACT...There is no point using any SLR digital camera if you canot trust the picture it takes...SAD BUT TRUE.

Well after I got my second 10D I can trust it as much I could trust my old trusty D30.

I have not told anyone to pipe down, let it come out! I just share this info because I have been there and the way to go AFTER anger is to evaluate the reason and get it fixed. Simple as that. 10D is not a soft camera, I have tons of photos to prove it.

And there is one more fact left: all electronic devices have and will have faults and QA problems. All. In this case the fault was so easy to see - have you ever e.g. measured frequency response of you hifi components to see if they match the specs? Or checked that your DVD players S/N ratio is really that good? Or measure that your toothbrush really rotates 150 times a minute?


The Forum Boss, El General Moderator
AMASS 1.4 Changelog (installed here now)

LOG IN TO REPLY
rodbunn
Member
240 posts
Joined Mar 2003
Santa Clarita, Ca
Jun 10, 2003 09:31 |  #25

You are minus a Digital camera the time it takes Canon to test/fix your camera.




LOG IN TO REPLY
Roger_Cavanagh
Goldmember
Roger_Cavanagh's Avatar
1,394 posts
Joined Sep 2001
Jun 10, 2003 14:44 |  #26

DVWarrior wrote:
Pekka...Don't hit out at Canon...

Sorry. ???

Fact... Spend £1400 the most many of you will ever spend on a camera and get bum soft focus results !!!

Somewhat of an exaggeration: some users - and I was one - had AF calibration issues, but plenty of people are getting 10Ds that work fine straight out of the box.

Fact...Who make this 10D camera...oops could it be Canon...are they dropping QA to rush out back orders ?

I doubt we'll ever get an official statement about what has happened.

Fact...If a 35mm zoom lens works on an EOS-3 without any adjustments it should then work on a 10D...!!!

Unfortunately, this is not true. Both lenses and cameras have adjustment capability around a "midpoint". As I understand it, it is possible for both items to have compensating errors, so that a miscalibration problem does not show. This clearly means that a lens may not work on all cameras.

Don't patronise us Pekka nor tell us how to vent our anger...

I don't see anywhere in this thread that Pekka has done this. He posted information in good faith to help people ascertain, if they really might have a problem camera.

the D60 was crap because of focusing errors and the 10D has not been sorted beyond the D60.
A lot of these chaps have put their hobbies and relationships on the line to get the 10D its not a cheap option...If Canon can't guarentee the 10D being able to focus with at least Canon lenses then it should be recalled till the problem is solved...instead they cock up the D60 leave a lot of disattified customers behind then out of the blue appears the 10D with the exact...same ...focus problem as the D60...

I don't think it is the same problem at all. The D60 (same as the D30) did not have great AF performance in low light/contrast. It could not get a lock, which is not the same as inaccurate focus.

It is only speculation why so many 10D have been sold with AF miscalibration. The only statement I have seen from Canon person was made by Chuck Westfall on the Rob Galbraith Forums. Chuck admitted there were a "small" proportion of cameras that needed adjustment and all such cameras would be fixed or replaced under warranty. He categorically denied a systemic or design problem with the 10D.

FACT...There is no point using any SLR digital camera if you canot trust the picture it takes...SAD BUT TRUE.

I agree, but the fact is there are 10Ds out there working fine. If yours is not, then Canon will fix it or replace it. Is it a pain? Yes, when it happens to you, but it's a fact of life: there's no way to get 100% perfection all the time; that's why we have guarantees, extended warranties and insurance policies.

I don't believe that Canon wanted to send out faulty equipment. Certainly, if they persist in doing so on a large scale, they will lose market share.

Regards,


=============
Roger Cavanagh
www.rogercavanagh.comexternal link

LOG IN TO REPLY
tony723
Member
241 posts
Joined Dec 2001
Jun 10, 2003 21:46 |  #27

Hi Roger,

Your comment is true and valid. In fact no one can 100% sure the equipment is OK before bought it and test it. However, as I mentioned in previous post, Canon should have a lesson learnt that just a few faulty equipment may casue the whole market and the loyal customers criticize on the product and lost customer confidence. I think no one camera model received so many comment from its soft focus issue compare to Canon 10D.

Anyway, if someone still cannot trust Canon 10D, maybe we can wait for the next model - Canon 20D perhaps. I think this time Canon will put extraordinatory effort to ensure the quality of product.


http://www.flickr.com/​photos/traveller/external link

LOG IN TO REPLY
Cal ­ Maier
Member
131 posts
Joined Feb 2002
Jun 10, 2003 23:01 |  #28

This reply is to no one in particular, but I would like to comment on the focus issues of digital SLR cameras, as well as 35mm film bodies.

I manage a Pro camera centre in Western Canada, of all the Canon 10D's that we have sold (and there have been plenty), we have had only two Cameras that have had actual focus issues and those were serviced by Canon and adjusted to spec. (without further problems after adjustments) One of these bodies belonged to me.

Just to bring this into perspective, of the first 4 Fuji S2 Pro cameras that we sold - 3 had severe backfocusing issues and had to be sent in for adjustments.

I have sent 3 Nikon film bodies to Nikon, in the past year, to correct focus issues both front and back( one F90X was backfocusing from 6 to 8 feet behind the subject.

I have also sent an EOS IV in for similar focus problems.

This is not a new problem and I do not feel that Canon has produced a poor quality camera in the 10D, the only reason that it appears that Canon has had problems with this camera is the fact that there have been thousands of these cameras sold in the last couple of months. How many on this forum can honestly say they have never owned a vehicle that they considered to be a lemon? Probably not many, and I would think that the percentage of bad automobiles is a lot higher than Cameras that are out of adjustment.

My two cents!

Cal Maier
CPS 432




LOG IN TO REPLY
rambro
Hatchling
1 post
Joined Jun 2003
Jun 17, 2003 11:39 |  #29

Folks,

While all your FACTS are absolutely true, Canon are still having problems FIXING this issue.
I sent my Camera into Canon's Service Center (NJ) for repair, got it back and you can imagine my dissapointment when my focusing issue was still blatantly obvious, AND noticeably worse.

I spent the best part of this weekend following the instructions on testing the focus using the methods described in your forums, and also the one put forward by Bob Atkins(very useful and well written). The most confusing FACT is this.

The tests reveal that my 10D shows both Front and Back focusing problems. This is after Canon "fixed" my original focusing issue.

Let me assure your that I have read-up a lot of reader comments, suggestions and Knowlege base articles on this issue to know how the focusing Test work, and
how to interpret the results.

At the end of the day, this is another FACT you should add to your list:

Canon cannot fix every Focusing issue on the 10D no matter what you say. There are a lot of lemon 10Ds
out there, and for a $1500 camera this type of poblem is not acceptable, nor is canon's stance on it. If the camera has a focusing problem, replace it, just like any other reputable manufacture would.

There are a lot of valid points in this forum, and it would be too much to ask Canon Marketing to read "just a few"?

Perhaps, the most pertinent comment is one put forward by Pekka.

"FACT...There is no point using any SLR digital camera if you canot trust the picture it takes...SAD BUT TRUE"

On that note, I'm off to phone Canon and ask them to REPLACE my 10D.

Rob




LOG IN TO REPLY
Pekka
THREAD ­ STARTER
El General Moderator
Pekka's Avatar
17,108 posts
Gallery: 33 photos
Joined Mar 2001
Hellsinki, Finland
Jul 09, 2003 15:46 |  #30

Please see the addition I made on first post on this thread. May explain a lot.


The Forum Boss, El General Moderator
AMASS 1.4 Changelog (installed here now)

LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as registered member)

80,138 views & 0 likes for this thread
10D focus issue demystified
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras


Not a member yet? Click here to register to the forums.
Registered members get all the features: search, following threads, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, settings, view hosted photos, own reviews and more...


AAA

Send feedback to staff    •   Jump to forum...    •   Rules    •   Index    •   New posts    •   RTAT    •   'Best of'    •   Gallery    •   Gear    •   Reviews    •   Polls

COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Privacy policy and cookie usage info.

POWERED BY AMASS 1.4version 1.4
made in Finland
by Pekka Saarinen
for photography-on-the.net
Spent 0.00725 for 4 database queries.
PAGE COMPLETED IN 0.05s
Latest registered member is Loopy1871
947 guests, 338 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 6106, that happened on Jun 09, 2016