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Old 6th of August 2011 (Sat)   #1
airdima
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Default hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

does anyone has any experience setting the hyperfocal distance on the 17-40 in a reliable way?

i shoot f11-16 most of the time, on 5DII

untill now i was guessing and set it somewhere 3/4 of the way between the 1m and the infinity mark, and it worked somewhat ok for me, but i was wondering if there's a better way

Thanks in advance
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #2
macroimage
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

If you align the focus points on the items of interest and put one on the horizon, or something very far, then A-DEP mode will do this for you and choose the appropriate aperture.
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #3
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

HERE is a description of HD and the method I use.
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #4
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

With the 17-40, I find that setting the lens to 20mm and ƒ8 covers pretty most eventualities. Focus at 2m and that covers everything from 1m to infinity.
@ macroimage - if the 5DII is like the 5Dc, then you don't have the option of A-DEP.
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #5
JohnB57
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

Hyperfocal distance at f/8 and 20mm FL: -
FF = 1.69 metres
1.6 crop = 2.66 metres

At f/11 and 20mm FL: -
FF = 1.2 metres
1.6 crop = 1.89 metres

Last edited by JohnB57 : 25th of September 2011 (Sun) at 07:08. Reason: Spelling
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #6
Daniel Browning
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

Quote:
Originally Posted by airdima View Post
does anyone has any experience setting the hyperfocal distance on the 17-40 in a reliable way?
Takes a bout 5 seconds using liveview. Start with focus on infinity, then rack focus toward the foreground until infinity is *just* about to start losing sharpness. Move loupe to foreground to check sharpness of foreground -- if it's not equally sharp with infinity (i.e. it's not within the DOF), then stop down more. Use 10X to emulate very large prints, and use 5X to simulate sharpness of smaller print sizes.
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #7
macroimage
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xhack View Post
macroimage - if the 5DII is like the 5Dc, then you don't have the option of A-DEP.
Whoops! I was thinking of my Digital Rebel cameras and my film EOS cameras. You are right, neither my 5D nor my 7D have A-DEP. That's too bad. I didn't use it often but it was handy sometimes for setting a focus distance and aperture. Usually I would focus with A-DEP, note the aperture, then use manual mode to stop down a bit further to make sure there was enough depth of field.
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #8
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Browning View Post
Takes a bout 5 seconds using liveview. Start with focus on infinity, then rack focus toward the foreground until infinity is *just* about to start losing sharpness. Move loupe to foreground to check sharpness of foreground -- if it's not equally sharp with infinity (i.e. it's not within the DOF), then stop down more. Use 10X to emulate very large prints, and use 5X to simulate sharpness of smaller print sizes.
Infinity will never be equally sharp with plane of focus if enlarged sufficiently. This is not the way that DOF works and you should read the many posts on here. There is only ever one plane of critically sharp focus and it's beyond the visual acuity of a normal human to judge this, certainly on the screen of any EOS. Use a DOF calculator as I did for my previous post. This will at least inform you as to the hyperfocal distance for any FL/format/aperture combination.
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #9
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

The key is to have a sharp foreground regardless of the lens. Sharpness will fall off as the image heads out to infinity. Manually select the bottom focus point that is closest to 1/3 from the bottom of the image (in either orientation). Then use f16-18 and you should be good to go.
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #10
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

I'm guessing the OP's question is not about hyperfocal distance calculation - it's being able to set it on the 17-40. The focus scale on that lens (like many AF lenses) has a marking for 1m and then a very short distance to the infinity mark. IMHO, I don't think it's a reliable operation using hyperfocal distance setting on the 17-40, unless it's less than 1m. It's a similar story on most AF lenses alas - if you want a good focus scale, go buy an MF lens!
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #11
JohnB57
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulkaye View Post
I'm guessing the OP's question is not about hyperfocal distance calculation - it's being able to set it on the 17-40. The focus scale on that lens (like many AF lenses) has a marking for 1m and then a very short distance to the infinity mark. IMHO, I don't think it's a reliable operation using hyperfocal distance setting on the 17-40, unless it's less than 1m. It's a similar story on most AF lenses alas - if you want a good focus scale, go buy an MF lens!
Good points, well made. But if you need hyperfocal on FF at say 20mm FL, focus centre point on something 2 metres away at f/8, switch to MF and everything to infinity (and beyond, Buzz!) will be in focus at normal enlargement. On crop this needs to be nearer to 3 metres or stop down to f/11.

Last edited by JohnB57 : 25th of September 2011 (Sun) at 15:23. Reason: clarity
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #12
Daniel Browning
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

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Originally Posted by JohnB57 View Post
Infinity will never be equally sharp with plane of focus if enlarged sufficiently.
First, I'm sorry for not being more clear. When I said "foreground", I did not mean to refer to the plane of focus, though I can see why you might have made that assumption. What I meant by "foreground" was the nearest part of the subject that the photographer desires to retain with the depth of field. So if I were to rephrase it in a clearer way, here is what I would say:

"To find the hyperfocal distance, rack focus toward the foreground until infinity is *just* about to start losing sharpness."

And, on a subject the OP didn't really ask about, but is useful nonetheless, "To check if your chosen f-number provides sufficient depth of field, move the loupe to the nearest part of the subject that you wish to retain within the depth of field -- if it's not equally sharp with infinity (i.e. it's not within the DOF), then stop down more."

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB57 View Post
if enlarged sufficiently.
Second, since we now cleared up the difference between "foreground" and "plane of focus", I'm sure you'll agree that it *is* possible to achieve equal sharpness between infinity and a foreground object, such as when they both have the exact same degree of defocus blur, since neither of them are at the plane of focus.

Third, phrases like "if enlarged sufficiently" only apply for as long as the viewer's CoC after enlargement is smaller than the sensor's. Once you pass the level at which details corresponding to the Nyquist frequency of the image sensor become visible to the viewer, further enlargement can only differ in the visibility of aliasing artifacts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB57 View Post
This is not the way that DOF works and you should read the many posts on here.
Thank you for the suggestion, but I have "read the many posts on here" and don't see the contradiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB57 View Post
There is only ever one plane of critically sharp focus and it's beyond the visual acuity of a normal human to judge this,
When MTF is plotted over a function of distance for a given spatial frequency (whether it's the highest possible, sensor Nyquist, or a much lower one such as an 8x10 print), there are many circumstance in which the MTF on the plane of focus and at a different location will be so close that they are for all intents and purposes equally sharp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB57 View Post
certainly on the screen of any EOS.
Hogwash. The 5D2 screen at 10X corresponds to at *least* 60 lp/mm, or about the level of detail of 240 ppi 12x18 print (viewed close enough to see all 240 ppi, of course). If you make larger or more detailed prints than that, then liveview may not be sufficient to judge sharpness, but in any case it would still be incorrect to to say the screen wasn't useful for that that certain purpose just because it's not useful for all purposes.

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Originally Posted by JohnB57 View Post
Use a DOF calculator as I did for my previous post. This will at least inform you as to the hyperfocal distance for any FL/format/aperture combination.
Why would I bother with a bunch of theoretical numbers and calculators when it's faster to just look at the the actual hyperfocal distance with my own two eyes?
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #13
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Browning View Post
Why would I bother with a bunch of theoretical numbers and calculators when it's faster to just look at the the actual hyperfocal distance with my own two eyes?
Good work Daniel. So, as long as I have a loupe and the time to faff about with live view, I can take great photos?

Using a loupe on a 5DII screen? Really? You do that? Wow...

Speaking as a 53 year old spectacle wearer, I can honestly say it's much simpler and easier simply to know the approximate hyperfocal distance for your format at any aperture and approximate FL. My eyesight does not allow me to do what you do, simple as that, even if I possessed a loupe.

My post wasn't meant to sound patronising by the way - you are clearly far better informed than I, as your unnecessarily technical reply testifies. But I would maintain that a clear understanding of DoF and CoC is generally lacking and your post did nothing to help. If folks understand how DoF works, they can do the work themselves.

Apologies everyone - this should not be another DoF debate.
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Old 25th of September 2011 (Sun)   #14
Daniel Browning
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB57 View Post
Good work Daniel. So, as long as I have a loupe and the time to faff about with live view, I can take great photos?

Using a loupe on a 5DII screen? Really? You do that? Wow...
I was not referring to an optical loupe. Loupe is the term I use for the rectangle in liveview that is digitally cropped to 5X or 10X and can be moved around the frame. I thought that it was common usage, but now that I look around, I think that I may be mistaken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB57 View Post
Speaking as a 53 year old spectacle wearer, I can honestly say it's much simpler and easier simply to know the approximate hyperfocal distance for your format at any aperture and approximate FL. My eyesight does not allow me to do what you do, simple as that, even if I possessed a loupe.
You're quite right. Liveview definitely wont work for some people. My mistake.
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Old 26th of September 2011 (Mon)   #15
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Default Re: hyperfocal focus on 17-40?

I use exactly the method described by Daniel.
And I wrote small article for photographyblogger about using LV for landscape photography:
http://www.photographyblogger.net/us...e-photography/

As I always shoot from a tripod the viewfinder is useless and the method described for DOF allows me to forget all the tables and calculations. Works like a charm.
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