7D Image quality??

[kcbrown]

Originally Posted by RobDickinson

More DR is always a good thing but typically 11 stops is plenty.
And if it isnt there are usually ways of working round it.

Yes the shadow detail on nikon/sony sensors is cleaner and more able to be pushed, but its not a huge deal.

I agree in the general case it's not a big deal at all. Few people truly know what dynamic range is, much less how to actually use what their camera is capable of giving them.

There are those rare times, however, when there is no substitute for an additional couple of stops of dynamic range. As with any other camera feature, you might not use it very much, but you will really miss it if it's not there when you need it.

[jonneymendoza]

Originally Posted by kcbrown

That's a good question. In reality, it's far more than merely 5 years ahead in terms of dynamic range.

Canon went from 10.8 Ev in the 30D to 11.7 Ev in the 7D in about 5 years, and Canon's been flat ever since (actually, the 10D comes in at 10.9 Ev, so Canon's DR progress hasn't been steady). So in terms of dynamic range progress that Canon has been making, Nikon has at least a ten year lead on Canon, since Nikon outclasses Canon by at least 2 stops worth of dynamic range.

(Dynamic range numbers above were taken from DxOMark, and while the absolute numbers may not necessarily be "accurate", the relative numbers almost certainly are)

whats teh DR on the 5dmk3?

[kcbrown]

Originally Posted by jonneymendoza

whats teh DR on the 5dmk3?

11.7 Ev -- identical to that of the 7D.

[jonneymendoza]

Originally Posted by kcbrown

11.7 Ev -- identical to that of the 7D.

the 5d3 really is a 7d in a FF sensor then! it is far too pricey though IMO!!!

TBH mate, if my 400d broke down today, i would get a 7d hands down. its offordable and offers MUCH more variety then the 5dmk2.

You know me, i love my bokeh no doubt but if that is the only benefit(which it is compared to the 5d2 ) then it aint worth sacraficing that awsome 7d AF system and framerates over bokeh. plus the fact that with a 5d2 i would need a new walkabout lens to boot.

[kcbrown]

Originally Posted by jonneymendoza

the 5d3 really is a 7d in a FF sensor then! it is far too pricey though IMO!!!

That's my feeling as well. The 5D3 should be priced the same as what the 5D2 was originally priced at. I don't believe the $1900 premium over the 7D buys enough to make that premium worth it (and that premium is even larger if you start looking at the used market for the 7D).

Everyone has to make their own decision, of course, but it seems to me that you'd have to have a very strong need for the specific attributes of full frame to justify that kind of premium. I can understand the appeal, but $1900 buys a lot of really good glass if you spend it wisely.

TBH mate, if my 400d broke down today, i would get a 7d hands down. its offordable and offers MUCH more variety then the 5dmk2.

You've been itching to upgrade for some time now. I'm surprised you haven't jumped all over the 7D already. But if you're waiting to see what the 7D2 brings to the table, I can certainly understand.

I dunno. The 7D is so good that it has basically gotten me off the upgrade treadmill. I'm interested in what the 7D2 brings to the table, but I think it's unlikely that it'll knock my socks off, and it would have to in order to make upgrading from the 7D truly worthwhile. And every time I shoot with my 7D, that desire to upgrade almost completely disappears.

I expect Canon to try the same sort of "2 stop high ISO improvement!! (*cough* in JPEG *cough*)" BS with the 7D2 that they tried to pull with the 5D3, and I'm not falling for it. RAW is the only place where improvement counts, and then only if the RAW is the actual data from the sensor and not some half-cooked thing. If Canon wipes detail to yield "improved" high ISO noise in RAW, then I'll just manipulate the 7D images to achieve the same level of detail and then see how much different the ISO performance really is. Canon will not pull the wool over my eyes on these things. If the 5D3 is any indicator, I think we'll see about half a stop of real improvement, and that's not nearly enough to knock my socks off.

You know me, i love my bokeh no doubt but if that is the only benefit(which it is compared to the 5d2 ) then it aint worth sacraficing that awsome 7d AF system and framerates over bokeh. plus the fact that with a 5d2 i would need a new walkabout lens to boot.

Keep in mind that most of the shallow depth of field you can get with full frame is something you can get with primes on a crop camera. It's when you put primes on full frame that they really stand out, but the primary way they do so is with relatively wide angles. However, primes aren't as flexible as zooms, and it is nice to be able to get prime-like shallow depth of field with zoom lenses.

Put a 24-105 on full frame, however, and you'll be getting about the same depth of field as with that 17-50 f/2.8 on your crop camera. The f/2.8 zooms (24-70, 70-200, and especially 16-35) are where full frame has the greatest advantage, in my opinion: you get depths of field that are matched only by a f/1.8 or faster prime on crop (f/2 if you want to be a little generous).

You have to spend a big pile of money on glass in order to really get the most advantage out of full frame. No, if cost is any real concern, crop is where it's at unless the specific attributes of full frame are mandatory.


You can always get a 5D classic if you really want full frame but don't want to pay a lot of money for it.

[crumbleton]

WRT the 7d and its many functions; what's the best learning resource to use be it video, book or website? Is there a one-stop shop I can refer to in order to learn about the AF and other things? Is there anything anyone can recommend?

[tivoboy]

Originally Posted by kcbrown

That's my feeling as well. The 5D3 should be priced the same as what the 5D2 was originally priced at. I don't believe the $1900 premium over the 7D buys enough to make that premium worth it (and that premium is even larger if you start looking at the used market for the 7D).

It is priced the same as the 5d MK II, just not in US dollar terms. Canon can't change the math and I don't think they can sell at a huge loss

[Thorrulz]

Originally Posted by crumbleton

WRT the 7d and its many functions; what's the best learning resource to use be it video, book or website? Is there a one-stop shop I can refer to in order to learn about the AF and other things? Is there anything anyone can recommend?

I'll check the name of a video I have when I get home and post it here. It covers alot of the features/functions of the 7d. Also B&H Photo had some good free videos you can watch as well.

[TeamSpeed]

The POTN 7D FAQ/Sticky page has alot of links to videos and white papers.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...ghlight=7D+FAQ

[Mike55]

Originally Posted by kcbrown

I expect Canon to try the same sort of "2 stop high ISO improvement!! (*cough* in JPEG *cough*)" BS with the 7D2 that they tried to pull with the 5D3, and I'm not falling for it.

hehe

RAW is the only place where improvement counts, and then only if the RAW is the actual data from the sensor and not some half-cooked thing.

You absolutely nailed it. Canon's jpeg sensor bandaiding needs to come to an end. This seems like what companies do for their consumer pocket cams, not $1500 DSLR's.

You have to spend a big pile of money on glass in order to really get the most advantage out of full frame. No, if cost is any real concern, crop is where it's at unless the specific attributes of full frame are mandatory.

True. I love crop, even after owning FF. But all I ask is for good DR at low ISO's.



I'm also off the "upgrade bandwagon". Hell, I'm still using Lightroom 3. Tried 4, didn't see an advantage, didn't buy it.

The 7D suits my needs for now. I've been burned too many times by the "upgrade game". From now on, I need to see dramatic sensor improvement before upgrading bodies.

[kcbrown]

Originally Posted by Mike55

You absolutely nailed it. Canon's jpeg sensor bandaiding needs to come to an end. This seems like what companies do for their consumer pocket cams, not $1500 DSLR's.

You'd think DSLR sensors would be given more attention, but Canon is not the kind of company that improves anything unless it's backed into a corner. That's why the 7D came out at all: Nikon backed Canon into a corner. Same for the 5D3.

True. I love crop, even after owning FF. But all I ask is for good DR at low ISO's.

The 7D's DR isn't bad. You get banding in the deep shadows, but there are ways of dealing with that.

I'd love to have 14 stops of DR for those rare instances where you really need to recover the shadows, but let's face it: what makes most shots look interesting is the fact that they don't look like what our eyes see. The fact that cameras have a limited dynamic range is what causes them to produce a contrastier, punchier image than what our eyes see. Indeed, most people crush their blacks, which further reduces the actual dynamic range that is used.

Most people don't need wide dynamic range out of their camera, and most people who claim to want it have no idea what it even is (the range of light intensity that was captured, not the range of tones on the screen or in the output). Some of these very same people will claim that you must be "improperly exposing" when you attempt to push your shadows hard, not understanding that pushing your shadows hard is what you must do to make the most of the camera's dynamic range.

I'm also off the "upgrade bandwagon". Hell, I'm still using Lightroom 3. Tried 4, didn't see an advantage, didn't buy it.

If you're using LR3, then check out the masking function of the sharpening slider. It's one of the things I use to take care of low-ISO noise. Also note that the adjustment brushes now allow you to adjust the sharpness in both directions, so you can kill all the noise in any out-of-focus areas and selectively sharpen areas with detail.

The 7D suits my needs for now. I've been burned too many times by the "upgrade game". From now on, I need to see dramatic sensor improvement before upgrading bodies.

That's pretty much how I feel about it as well, although spot metering linked to the active focus point would certainly get my attention...

[kfreels]

Originally Posted by Quizzical_Squirrel

In other news, I just noticed that I've put my bra on inside out today.

If only Sony made Exmor bras, this wouldn't matter as I'd have no visible bra-banding and I would have more leeway with exposure.

Exposing to the right is often inconvenient.

[Mike55]

Please stop trolling. I'm trying to enjoy a camera discussion.

[crimsonblack]

Originally Posted by crumbleton

WRT the 7d and its many functions; what's the best learning resource to use be it video, book or website? Is there a one-stop shop I can refer to in order to learn about the AF and other things? Is there anything anyone can recommend?

I used youtube to get the lowdown on the use of the AF system of the 7D. It's was extrememely helpful over the manual I purchased. The book was great with everything else, but the AF videos were awesome getting me started and helping understand the setup and just what the AF can really do. Coming from the Sony F717 and jumping into the 7D was rough, but fun as hell.