Photography Education: Hallmark Vs. CDIA

[BeckyB916]

I have seen a few threads on POTN, as well as threads on other forums and sites, however I was hoping to create a current and fresh discussion about formal photography education.

As we all know each person has a different learning style and those of you who are self-taught, I commend you! I own so many books, try to absorb as much as I can through forums and working with professional photographers. For myself, personally, I know that the best and only way I learn is by being hands on and consistently doing something. One-off workshops and shadowing with pros doesn't stick with me. I know that a formal education is for me because it will be consistent, on-going and full emersion into one topic. With that being said I am looking to attend school in September.

I am getting older and have been working in insurance for the better part of the past decade so I don't want to invest the next four years into a college or university program. A certificate program seems to suit my needs exactly. I live in Connecticut and there are two schools that I am currently interested in: Hallmark Institute of Photography (Turners Falls, MA) and Boston University Center for Digital Imaging Arts (CDIA).

Hallmark is my first choice as I have visited the school on four or five occasions. Met with the faculty, seen the labs, equipment being used, etc. and I love it. The program is 10-months from Sept-June and takes place all day every day. The downside is that the cost of attendance is 58K and that doesn't include housing. Because it is a proprietary school there are only two funding options available to me (granted that I am older and have a decent job currently) which are Sallie Mae and a credit union up by the school. The credit union, is not able to provide the full cost of tuition plus the cost of housing which leaves me with Sallie Mae which has been a nightmare (not to mention their ridiculous rates).

CDIA seems to be very similar to Hallmark in that it is less than a year long (7 months), has a decent student to instructor ratio so there is plenty of one on one time, etc. I have not yet visited so I cannot comment on the layout, equipment being used, faculty, etc. The bonus is that the program is slightly less time and significantly less in tuition: 26K. I am scheduled to take a tour on Friday so some lingering questions will be answered.

My question to you, my POTN family, is: do any of you have experience with either of these two places or know anyone who has attended? I can use all of the useful feedback I can get at this point.

Thank you in advance!!!

[Thomas Campbell]

I have worked with people from Hallmark and Brooks. I am not familiar with CDIA. I have also worked with people that got a BFA or MFA from major universities.

My big concern after talking to these guys that went there is the debt. Both have 80k+ in debt and photography is a low paying job. For $80k at a pretty standard 7.9%, you are looking at paying $966/month for the next decade for almost $120k total cost.

How much do you realistically think you are going to make as a photographer after you graduate? If you book $100,000/year in business, according to the PPA, you are going to take home about $33000/year after taxes and business expenses. So $2750/month. Minus 966 in student loans. You are bringing in $1784 after taxes+business expenses+student debt.

When my wife and I got married, we lived in a 600sf apartment and that was $800. That would have left about 900 for car, gas, insurance, food, fun, etc.

I don't think I could take on as much debt as law school or medical school for a job that 1. Has almost NO salaried jobs available and 2. has an average salary of around $40k-50k. That just doesn't seem like a good financial decision, but I tend to be kind of a Dave Ramsey-type saver. What happens if you spend $80k on photography education, feel like you got bad instructors or still struggle with it and don't want to run your own business? Now you have a $1000/month student debt payment for a decade on something you don't really want to do. I just don't see a way to justify almost $100,000 of debt for a career where you will make about $50k/year if you are good.

Both guys I know [both super talented] that went to school said it was beneficial, they learned a lot, but they are drowning in debt, they can't find jobs. Both said they wouldn't do it over.

[BeckyB916]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

I have worked with people from Hallmark and Brooks. I am not familiar with CDIA. I have also worked with people that got a BFA or MFA from major universities.

My big concern after talking to these guys that went there is the debt. Both have 80k+ in debt and photography is a low paying job. For $80k at a pretty standard 7.9%, you are looking at paying $966/month for the next decade for almost $120k total cost.

How much do you realistically think you are going to make as a photographer after you graduate? If you book $100,000/year in business, according to the PPA, you are going to take home about $33000/year after taxes and business expenses. So $2750/month. Minus 966 in student loans. You are bringing in $1784 after taxes+business expenses+student debt.

When my wife and I got married, we lived in a 600sf apartment and that was $800. That would have left about 900 for car, gas, insurance, food, fun, etc.

I don't think I could take on as much debt as law school or medical school for a job that 1. Has almost NO salaried jobs available and 2. has an average salary of around $40k-50k. That just doesn't seem like a good financial decision, but I tend to be kind of a Dave Ramsey-type saver. What happens if you spend $80k on photography education, feel like you got bad instructors or still struggle with it and don't want to run your own business? Now you have a $1000/month student debt payment for a decade on something you don't really want to do. I just don't see a way to justify almost $100,000 of debt for a career where you will make about $50k/year if you are good.

Both guys I know [both super talented] that went to school said it was beneficial, they learned a lot, but they are drowning in debt, they can't find jobs. Both said they wouldn't do it over.

Your entire message is the largest dilemma I have had for the past couple of years that I have considered going after formal education! Being a "Dave Ramsey-type saver" isn't necessarily a bad thing!

I know for me personally that a formal education is what I'll need to succeed because there are technical components that I have studied on my own but cannot seem to absorb. I am very kinesthetic so I need a type of environment that is full-time, one on one, learning and then doing in order for me to retain new knowledge. The type of education is where I am at a crossroads because I want to go to a school that I have studied, seen amazing things come from and know that I'll excel once I leave. That being said, the student loan debt I'll face once I leave is terrifying; especially since I won't be making Donald Trump money as a photographer!

The part that gets me is where you say that your friends are drowning in debt, can't find jobs but that they "wouldn't do it over". That tells me that the experience is worth it.

Such a dilemma! Thank you so much for your input because it really helped

[Thomas Campbell]

The part that gets me is where you say that your friends are drowning in debt, can't find jobs but that they "wouldn't do it over". That tells me that the experience is worth it.

They wouldn't do it over - as in - they would not have gotten $100k student loans to get a photo/video degree. They would not go back.

The other thing to think of is that neither of these degrees are accredited, so they don't count as a real bachelor's. So if you want a job in the government or something - these won't count as a degree.

My recommendation would be not to do it. $80-100K to get an unaccredited degree towards a job that you will pull home 30-40K if you are good after taxes and expenses is a poor financial decision.

[BeckyB916]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

They wouldn't do it over - as in - they would not have gotten $100k student loans to get a photo/video degree. They would not go back.

The other thing to think of is that neither of these degrees are accredited, so they don't count as a real bachelor's. So if you want a job in the government or something - these won't count as a degree.

My recommendation would be not to do it. $80-100K to get an unaccredited degree towards a job that you will pull home 30-40K if you are good after taxes and expenses is a poor financial decision.

Ah, I see! And your logic does make sense. Unless I have the money up front and do not have to take out student loans then I think I'll continue to pursue other avenues. Again, thank you for your feedback!

[charro callado]

I would say 100% don't do it, but the fact that you say you have trouble learning things on your own gives me slight pause.

I had no idea the cost of tuition at Hallmark was so expensive. In my view that money would be far better spent on equipment. True, you'll learn how to do all this cool stuff with cool expensive equipment at Hallmark, but then you'll graduate and not be able to afford any of it. Knowledge without the tools to implement it is not particularly helpful when you're trying to pay bills. Case in point - I have an intern starting in August who just graduated from Hallmark this year. She learned a lot - there's no question about that. And she was lucky enough to buy one of the school's gently-used 5dII bodies upon graduation. But - here's the kick in the gut - she doesn't own a lens. Why not? She's broke. Worse than broke actually; she's deep in debt. A photographer with no lenses and (less than) no money: that's a tough way to start a business.

I can - and did - learn everything I know on my own. A large part of me thinks that's the only way to do it now if you want to be a professional and don't have $50,000 burning a hole in your pocket and earmark-able for tuition.

So after writing this, I'll throw my vote in for "don't do it." You can spend $40,000 on gear and $10,000 on private tutoring (aHEM ) and still come out ahead financially.

with grains of salt, etc...

joe

[BeckyB916]

Originally Posted by charro callado

I would say 100% don't do it, but the fact that you say you have trouble learning things on your own gives me slight pause.

I had no idea the cost of tuition at Hallmark was so expensive. In my view that money would be far better spent on equipment. True, you'll learn how to do all this cool stuff with cool expensive equipment at Hallmark, but then you'll graduate and not be able to afford any of it. Knowledge without the tools to implement it is not particularly helpful when you're trying to pay bills. Case in point - I have an intern starting in August who just graduated from Hallmark this year. She learned a lot - there's no question about that. And she was lucky enough to buy one of the school's gently-used 5dII bodies upon graduation. But - here's the kick in the gut - she doesn't own a lens. Why not? She's broke. Worse than broke actually; she's deep in debt. A photographer with no lenses and (less than) no money: that's a tough way to start a business.

I can - and did - learn everything I know on my own. A large part of me thinks that's the only way to do it now if you want to be a professional and don't have $50,000 burning a hole in your pocket and earmark-able for tuition.

So after writing this, I'll throw my vote in for "don't do it." You can spend $40,000 on gear and $10,000 on private tutoring (aHEM ) and still come out ahead financially.

with grains of salt, etc...

joe

I'm lucky in that I already have a body, lens, flash, etc. but not all and everything I am going to need so you have a very great point there! Regardless of how I learn the cost of gear is still there so I agree that spending money for Hallmark is gut-wrenching.

It helps to know that you have an intern that graduated from Hallmark and that she has come out on the other side with immense debt. Continuing to hear about professionals out in the field who think its a bad idea helps to reinforce my decision.

The Boston University - Center for Digital Imaging Arts is considerably less money and while its not as posh as Hallmark it may be a better alternative. I interned under a professional (and considerably successful) photographer for a few months but he wasn't able to spend the amount of one on one time with me I needed because he was trying to run his business. So I have a feeling that interning may not be enough, but perhaps a good step after I receive some education.

Thanks for your comments and vote

[Thomas Campbell]

Originally Posted by BeckyB916

Unless I have the money up front and do not have to take out student loans then I think I'll continue to pursue other avenues.

Even if you had the money up front, you are getting a terrible return on your investment. You'd probably be better off buying a bunch of Ls and Profotos and hiring a pro for a series of 1 on 1 lessons. Then you can learn exactly what you want from who you want in the timing that you want.

[Thomas Campbell]

#3 worst college major:
http://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/1...-career/9.html

[BeckyB916]

Originally Posted by Thomas Campbell

#3 worst college major:
http://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow/1...-career/9.html

Thanks for that link! I am currently holding off on diving into the deep end of the pool of formal education and looking into taking maybe just a few one-off classes on lighting, etc. to improve my form.

I think the experience would be so incredible but the amount of debt seems extremely hard to justify. I knew asking my fellow photogs that exist in the real world of photography gave me the best chance of getting a realistic response.

Thanks again