What do you do when...Advice needed

[dmxsoulja3]

Hey folks,

So a friend of mine was getting married and initially it was just going to be a courthouse wedding and her parents weren't having it, and got a small church and had a few guests, and on short notice asked me if I would take pics of the event. Mind you they know my skill level, which mostly resides in outdoor beach type stuff, or indoor party/night club work with flash/wideangle, and honestly they just wanted pics of what was happening. I have wanted to get into weddings anyways so I agreed and have some questions for you guys now that I've finished. Sorry about the length just need some help from you guys who do this often.

Equipment List:
7D Gripped
70-200 IS II 2.8 L
24-70 2.8 L
580EX

1. This church was tiny, like throw a rock under handed front to back and hit the wall tiny, meaning there was nothing spectacular in front of the bride and groom and basically no "room" behind them for any depth of field. Due to the size of the place I had to be in the back, even with 70-200 IS II 2.8 on 7D, the lighting had me at 1/50, 2.8, ISO1600-3200, which meant I came up with maybe 20% of my shots in focus due to what I'm assuming is too shallow of DOF for the focal length. So what do you guys do in this situation? I couldn't shoot any higher without risking blur, which if you have held the 70-200 up for a few hours is def a possibility. The only other thing I could have thought to do was use a tripod but I would look like the Eiffel tower with that in such a small place and I felt rude, so I passed on it.

2. Since the church was so bland, I'm in the back, shooting peoples backs, the pictures to me felt BORING, but it seems like shooting from the back is standard operating procedure, so is this to be expected? Should I be more concerned with them walking back down the aisle, because "it is what it is" during the ring exchange? When you are in the back next to the door they are coming in from, how do you guys get any shots of them walking up the aisle or is this not common practice anyways?

3. Even after talking with the bride, and the rest of the wedding party about being mindful of their facial expressions, looking up, and pause for a split second when they see me and smile on the "critical" moments, they just plain didn't. Coming down the aisle they didn't stop for a sec and let me pop off a quick one, or even bother to look directly at me, the bridal party was staring at the ground, I mean it was brutal. Has this happen to you? What if I run into this again?


Appreciate it guys, learned alot just going through the motions, while I felt *semi-pro* going into it, having beautiful outdoor shots, paid family beach photos, etc, I came out of this wedding feeling like I took snapshots with 4 grand worth of high end gear and it was a major blow that I'm hoping to learn from and build new skills with.

[RichardStevens]

Your equipment is similar to mine, and this too is my worst fear about shooting weddings - being in a situation you're not in control of.

If the church was cramped and the walls boring and closed-in, then if your photos show this then at least they give a true representation of their day, even if they aren't the most amazing photographs you've ever taken.

[Christopher Steven b]

Sounds to me like you were skittish and perhaps afraid to grasp the moment to do the things that would get you better shots.

I don' t quite understand from your post why you were stuck at the back near the door.

Most of your 'has this ever happened to you' descriptions are descriptions of standard weddings--and I've shot not a million, but 35-ish. For example, I think only 2 or 3 out of that number had the bride stop at some point in her walk down the aisle so that I could grab a shot. Most of the time they just proceed down the aisle and I'm getting shots of her from the front (near the groom). I then disappear to the side aisle.

In most churches I'm at 1600 ISO, sometimes shooting at f/2.2. Shutterspeed is something at least I don't skimp on for that entrance, though--I'm usually at 1/250 or thereabouts.

[dmxsoulja3]

I don't know that I was skittish or afraid, but literally the minister said...stay in the back only. When the place is so tiny to begin with it really made me feel confined because up front where they were the building tapered into a tiny stage maybe only 10ft across if that, so even if I were able to travel up the sides, I wouldn't have had a very good angle.

Ok good to know that you just "pop out" and hope for the best, the problem was they didn't have very far to walk so I didn't have alot of time to pop out and not get ran over nor get a shot where they didn't just look like they were going to prison..haha I tell you, I felt depressed about marriage seeing this wedding.

What lens are you using shooting at 2.2? I'm guessing a prime of some sort? Do you not run into issues like I mentioned where the plane of focus is just too narrow shooting long at low aper? 200mm at 2.8 I think was me living in a dream world, while I can pull that off outdoors, I just couldn't get anything in focus in low light or it was narrow shooting on center point, so for instance from waist up in focus, but shoes or bottom of dress, soft. When shooting with my 24-70 I felt like I was capturing an "event" and not the bride and groom, just more of a group of people and not just them. I really struggled in that regard.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and help.

[amirg]

You say you had focus problems and I assume flash was not being allowed. Did you at least mount your 580EX to use its autofocus assist?

Churches that cramped are not common where we are but we've shot intimate ceremonies in small spaces. For the processional/recessional you would have had better luck with your 24-70. Then you could switch to 70-200 during the wedding ceremony to capture some emotional candids of their faces.

Originally Posted by dmxsoulja3

I don't know that I was skittish or afraid, but literally the minister said...stay in the back only. When the place is so tiny to begin with it really made me feel confined because up front where they were the building tapered into a tiny stage maybe only 10ft across if that, so even if I were able to travel up the sides, I wouldn't have had a very good angle.

Ok good to know that you just "pop out" and hope for the best, the problem was they didn't have very far to walk so I didn't have alot of time to pop out and not get ran over nor get a shot where they didn't just look like they were going to prison..haha I tell you, I felt depressed about marriage seeing this wedding.

What lens are you using shooting at 2.2? I'm guessing a prime of some sort? Do you not run into issues like I mentioned where the plane of focus is just too narrow shooting long at low aper? 200mm at 2.8 I think was me living in a dream world, while I can pull that off outdoors, I just couldn't get anything in focus in low light or it was narrow shooting on center point, so for instance from waist up in focus, but shoes or bottom of dress, soft. When shooting with my 24-70 I felt like I was capturing an "event" and not the bride and groom, just more of a group of people and not just them. I really struggled in that regard.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and help.

[dmxsoulja3]

Yeah no flash allowed...Did not have the 580 on at the time, was unaware that it assisted in that regard, are you referring to the af assist red beam?

[nicksan]

Originally Posted by dmxsoulja3

1. This church was tiny, like throw a rock under handed front to back and hit the wall tiny, meaning there was nothing spectacular in front of the bride and groom and basically no "room" behind them for any depth of field. Due to the size of the place I had to be in the back, even with 70-200 IS II 2.8 on 7D, the lighting had me at 1/50, 2.8, ISO1600-3200, which meant I came up with maybe 20% of my shots in focus due to what I'm assuming is too shallow of DOF for the focal length. So what do you guys do in this situation? I couldn't shoot any higher without risking blur, which if you have held the 70-200 up for a few hours is def a possibility. The only other thing I could have thought to do was use a tripod but I would look like the Eiffel tower with that in such a small place and I felt rude, so I passed on it.

I almost always shoot my 70-200 wide open at ceremonies. Other than the isle walk, 1/50 should have yielded far more keepers than 20%. DOF can be a problem depending on what type of shot you are going for, but that's just a fact of life in low light churches. You can jack up the ISO some more, or maybe shoot a wider lens to give you more DOF, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by dmxsoulja3

2. Since the church was so bland, I'm in the back, shooting peoples backs, the pictures to me felt BORING, but it seems like shooting from the back is standard operating procedure, so is this to be expected? Should I be more concerned with them walking back down the aisle, because "it is what it is" during the ring exchange? When you are in the back next to the door they are coming in from, how do you guys get any shots of them walking up the aisle or is this not common practice anyways?

Shooting from the back isn't really standard operating procedure, at least for me. I've only had a handful of instance where I was forced towards the back. I am usually all over the place, and covertly at that. During the processional, I am at the front. During the ring exchange and the kiss, I am in the aisle towards the front. During the recessional, I am towards the rear. It's all about knowing what is going to happen when.

Originally Posted by dmxsoulja3

3. Even after talking with the bride, and the rest of the wedding party about being mindful of their facial expressions, looking up, and pause for a split second when they see me and smile on the "critical" moments, they just plain didn't. Coming down the aisle they didn't stop for a sec and let me pop off a quick one, or even bother to look directly at me, the bridal party was staring at the ground, I mean it was brutal. Has this happen to you? What if I run into this again?

I never had a couple stop in the middle of the isle walk for a photo op. I usually am in AI Servo mode tracking the couple and fire away. I don't ask my couple to stop and smile during anything other than perhaps the couple session. During the ceremony, I let them do their thing.

Originally Posted by dmxsoulja3

Appreciate it guys, learned alot just going through the motions, while I felt *semi-pro* going into it, having beautiful outdoor shots, paid family beach photos, etc, I came out of this wedding feeling like I took snapshots with 4 grand worth of high end gear and it was a major blow that I'm hoping to learn from and build new skills with.

The more you shoot, the more you'll get used to the flow of the day, and that will allow you to infuse some creativity in your shots.

[gonzogolf]

Regarding #3. To some degree you may have been more emotionally invested in this wedding than the participants. They wanted a no fuss courthouse wedding and somebody foisted the church, and likely the photography upon them. As has been mentioned above there are times when you can raise the energy level through the force of your own personality, but some of us arent built that way.

[amirg]

Originally Posted by dmxsoulja3

Yeah no flash allowed...Did not have the 580 on at the time, was unaware that it assisted in that regard, are you referring to the af assist red beam?

Yes, you can disable the flash firing but still have the af assist beam to help with low light focus.

[dmxsoulja3]

Very good feedback NickSan.

Yeah the issue wide open and using single AF point basically led to focus plane issues where part of them is in focus, other parts are not, or in some cases one of them is in focus and the person next to them isn't.. how do I avoid this?

Shooting from the back was brutal, it almost seemed pointless, im like who the hell wants to look at pics of peoples back not even facing me..with such a short run way there was not alot of time to get them walking back towards me even in a candid manner..the telling them to stop and smile was more of a, hey you know there is only about 20ft of run way here so if you start hurrying down it looking at the floor the pics are going to suck. That said, even if they let me walk around, I would have been really obtrusive, my only real options were shoot from the back, or walk outside, walk around the building and there was like this storage room I could have shot the front of them, but they wouldn't allow me to, and the angle of the door opening would have meant I would have been out in the open and maybe 4ft from the bride/groom looking like im crashing the party...all around just sucked and I felt defeated afterwards.

[dmxsoulja3]

Originally Posted by amirg

Yes, you can disable the flash firing but still have the af assist beam to help with low light focus.

Thanks for this tip, I didn't ever see this mentioned as a feature anywhere, and since I mainly use it for being the main source of light in dim shoots, or as fill flash outdoors on the beach or something, never would have mounted it in a situation I didn't plan on using it, but will give this a try next time.

[nicksan]

Originally Posted by dmxsoulja3

Very good feedback NickSan.

Yeah the issue wide open and using single AF point basically led to focus plane issues where part of them is in focus, other parts are not, or in some cases one of them is in focus and the person next to them isn't.. how do I avoid this?

Sometimes you have no choice about this. As mentioned before, you can use a wider lens to gain more DOF, and perhaps crop in post. You can also crank up the ISO so that you can stop down the lens, but how much of a difference it make would depend on the DOF you need, and ultimately that's what it comes down to. Knowing how the lens used, settings, distance to subject, affect the DOF.

Originally Posted by dmxsoulja3

Shooting from the back was brutal, it almost seemed pointless, im like who the hell wants to look at pics of peoples back not even facing me..with such a short run way there was not alot of time to get them walking back towards me even in a candid manner..the telling them to stop and smile was more of a, hey you know there is only about 20ft of run way here so if you start hurrying down it looking at the floor the pics are going to suck. That said, even if they let me walk around, I would have been really obtrusive, my only real options were shoot from the back, or walk outside, walk around the building and there was like this storage room I could have shot the front of them, but they wouldn't allow me to, and the angle of the door opening would have meant I would have been out in the open and maybe 4ft from the bride/groom looking like im crashing the party...all around just sucked and I felt defeated afterwards.

Yeah, there's always the balance of getting in there in order to get the shots you need to get as the hired photographer, but not get in the way of guests too much. I think it's important that while the photos are an important part of the day, it's not THE biggest part of the day. I always try to remain as compact as possible, which is quite easy, because I am only 5'6" . I try to be as silent as possible and only use flash when absolutely necessarily and it's allowed.

Feeling "defeated" is quite normal. You'll get used to it. As I mentioned before, the more you get used to it, the more you'll be able to have time to get more creative.

[nicksan]

Originally Posted by dmxsoulja3

Thanks for this tip, I didn't ever see this mentioned as a feature anywhere, and since I mainly use it for being the main source of light in dim shoots, or as fill flash outdoors on the beach or something, never would have mounted it in a situation I didn't plan on using it, but will give this a try next time.

Just keep in mind the assist beam doesn't work when the camera is in AI Servo mode. It only works in Single Shot mode.

[amirg]

Originally Posted by nicksan

Just keep in mind the assist beam doesn't work when the camera is in AI Servo mode. It only works in Single Shot mode.

Yes, I forgot to add this. So basically if you're using AI servo during the wedding ceremony processional/recessional this won't help.

[dmxsoulja3]

I typically shoot in one shot or AI FOCUS, and select either one point, or the point with one to each side type setting. But I noticed that even when it thought it locked on two both subjects, or if I focused on one face, the person next to them was OOF, and I've never experienced this, mainly because I don't shoot multiple subjects at once alot, and if I do, I'm not at 150+mm. What is the key to getting two people side by side at 2.8 in focus?