Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Read More.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography
Thread started 26 Jun 2013 (Wednesday) 12:31
Prev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as registered member)

Post your itemized invoice

 
benji25
Senior Member
benji25's Avatar
Joined Jan 2010
Twin Cities
Jun 26, 2013 12:31 |  #1

So I am an accountant and I see a lot of threads about how much to charge, how much to spend on product packaging, prints etc. I also realize when you invoice clients you don't itemize so they don't exactly know what they are getting charged for.

I thought it would be a good idea for everyone to post up what they spend for an average shoot - that way people may find out they are spending too much on product packaging or they may even find out they are not charging enough to make money. It would also help if you linked to you supplier(s) if possible in order to provide information should someone want to use them.

I am not a professional photog so I don't have anything to post, but I will post a sample of what I think would help. (keep in mind I know NOTHING about what this stuff costs so these figures will NOT be accurate). Keep in mind this is stuff you are paying for in order to help others identify process/supplier improvements


Web hosting for main website
Online checkout services
Studio Rental costs

Hopefully you can get annual costs for the above and then estimate the number of shoots you do to figure out how much you spend per shoot.

For the items below they are more shoot specific so maybe just use a "typical" shoot to estimate.

Purchased equipment fees
Printing
Product presentation
Rented equipment - Break out in to categories body/lenses/lights
Driving, Gas etc.

So then your final sample invoice could be like this (add/remove any other costs I forgot):

IMAGE: http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/benji1025/invoice_zps3b0d846c.png

Websiteexternal link
flickrexternal link

LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as registered member)
KirkS518
Goldmember
KirkS518's Avatar
3,983 posts
Joined Apr 2012
Central Gulf Coast, Flori-duh
Jun 26, 2013 12:38 |  #2

I'm neither a pro, or an accountant, but I just watched this yesterday, and I think it complements the thread - AdoramaTV w/Mark Wallace; How much should I charge?external link


If steroids are illegal for athletes, should PS be illegal for models?
Digital - 50D, 20D IR Conv, 9 Lenses from 8mm to 300mm
Analog - Mamiya RB67 Pro-SD, Canon A-1, Nikon F4S, YashicaMat 124G, Rollei 35S, QL17 GIII, Zeiss Ikon Ikoflex 1st Version, and and entire room full of lenses and other stuff

LOG IN TO REPLY
jra
Cream of the Crop
jra's Avatar
6,506 posts
Joined Oct 2005
Ohio
Jun 26, 2013 12:46 |  #3

What about the costs not associated directly with the session/job but that are required to survive and work such as rent/house payment, taxes, food, clothing, health insurance, car, etc.... Although these costs are not associated directly, they must be considered and built into the final cost of each session/job for someone making a living from photography.




LOG IN TO REPLY
benji25
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
benji25's Avatar
Joined Jan 2010
Twin Cities
Jun 26, 2013 12:53 |  #4

jra wrote in post #16066912external link
What about the costs not associated directly with the session/job but that are required to survive and work such as rent/house payment, taxes, food, clothing, health insurance, car, etc.... Although these costs are not associated directly, they must be considered and built into the final cost of each session/job for someone making a living from photography.

I said people can add costs - mine were a starting point. However those costs are highly dependent on where you live, how healthy you are, family size, lifestyle choices etc. The things I have listed above are more or less "comparable" and then your net profit can be what others assume covers your living expenses.

Maybe people can state whether photography is their sole income that way if we see someone with a large profit margin we know that their income is also covering their family/personal life.

Also maybe post your market? (e.g. new york photographers probably pay more/charge more than midwest photograpers.)


Websiteexternal link
flickrexternal link

LOG IN TO REPLY
cdifoto
Don't get pissy with me
cdifoto's Avatar
34,039 posts
Joined Dec 2005
Jun 26, 2013 13:40 |  #5

kjonnnn wrote in post #16067054external link
Unless Im reading this post wrong... why would you put on an invoice to the customer, anything about rentals or studio costs, etc. Thats the cost of you doing business and they most likely do not care. While it is a good idea to do a cost analysis for yourself... I dont see the value of many of those items on an invoice to a customer.

If they were costs incurred to do that specific job you want to charge for it. Whether you itemize or just increase the bill is up to you and your client.

Having said that, I know what you're saying. Benji's sample looks more like a cost of doing business analysis than an actual invoice.


Did you lose Digital Photo Professional (DPP)? Get it hereexternal link. Cursing at your worse-than-a-map reflector? Check out this vid!external link

LOG IN TO REPLY
benji25
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
benji25's Avatar
Joined Jan 2010
Twin Cities
Jun 26, 2013 13:46 |  #6

kjonnnn wrote in post #16067054external link
Unless Im reading this post wrong... why would you put on an invoice to the customer, anything about rentals or studio costs, etc. Thats the cost of you doing business and they most likely do not care. While it is a good idea to do a cost analysis for yourself... I dont see the value of many of those items on an invoice to a customer.

Plus any Guestimate in the top section can only be accurate by looking at past records, not future earnings. If you charge somebody a $1 for web hosting based on your 100 shot per year estimate, if end up doing 200 shoots that year are you going to refund 50 cents? Customers dont need to be invoiced for your overhead.

The point of this thread is for photographers - not the customers. For example, if I see that most people in here spend $10 for an 8x10 and I am paying $20, maybe i need to change my printer. Or if I am paying $200 a month for insurance and Joe Schmo is paying $125, maybe I should check out is company.

It is designed to show you what other photographers pay for common things related to your services so you can save money.

kjonnnn wrote in post #16067072external link
Right. Which everyone that is trying to do business SHOULD have a cost of doing business analysis written down some where. Unless the OP didnt mean to use the word invoice.

This is what I am trying to get at - I figured the most granular level that would help in determining what to charge is on a per shoot basis - that way you have a point reference on which to figure out what to charge - and potential places to save. a hypothetical "itemized invoice"


Websiteexternal link
flickrexternal link

LOG IN TO REPLY
cdifoto
Don't get pissy with me
cdifoto's Avatar
34,039 posts
Joined Dec 2005
Jun 26, 2013 13:53 |  #7

kjonnnn wrote in post #16067072external link
Right. Which everyone that is trying to do business SHOULD have a cost of doing business analysis written down some where. Unless the OP didnt mean to use the word invoice.

But also would that be something that would be in an estimate .. rather than an invoice. If you offer a package for say $700, and I accept that package, if you're going to now charge me for extra stuff such as rentals and transportation costs, that should be told up front, NOT after the shoot is done and it shows up in the invoice.

Well you can have an agreement that the $700 covers known costs and any unforeseen extras will be billed with the final invoice. There are all kinds of ways to go about it. Photographic services don't all start and end with neat little predetermined packages.

Not all service agreements are all-inclusive. Take your car to a mechanic and you'll find that he'll give you an estimate right away but not a final price until he's done and knows what all he has in your repair.


Did you lose Digital Photo Professional (DPP)? Get it hereexternal link. Cursing at your worse-than-a-map reflector? Check out this vid!external link

LOG IN TO REPLY
cdifoto
Don't get pissy with me
cdifoto's Avatar
34,039 posts
Joined Dec 2005
Jun 26, 2013 13:56 |  #8

benji25 wrote in post #16067082external link
The point of this thread is for photographers - not the customers. For example, if I see that most people in here spend $10 for an 8x10 and I am paying $20, maybe i need to change my printer. Or if I am paying $200 a month for insurance and Joe Schmo is paying $125, maybe I should check out is company.

It is designed to show you what other photographers pay for common things related to your services so you can save money.

This is what I am trying to get at - I figured the most granular level that would help in determining what to charge is on a per shoot basis - that way you have a point reference on which to figure out what to charge - and potential places to save. a hypothetical "itemized invoice"

If you're paying $10 for an 8x10 it better be something special, otherwise you should probably look into outsourcing NOT buying yet another printer. But yeah you used the term "invoice" incorrectly. What you posted and what you're asking people to share are not invoices at all.


Did you lose Digital Photo Professional (DPP)? Get it hereexternal link. Cursing at your worse-than-a-map reflector? Check out this vid!external link

LOG IN TO REPLY
benji25
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
benji25's Avatar
Joined Jan 2010
Twin Cities
Jun 26, 2013 13:59 |  #9

cdifoto wrote in post #16067105external link
If you're paying $10 for an 8x10 it better be something special, otherwise you should probably look into outsourcing NOT buying yet another printer.

...which is exactly what people can talk about in this thread. Instead of having 50 threads with "how much should I pay for this" or "how much should I charge for this" people can come in here, see what similar photographers have for expenses, decide where they can charge more, or spend less, and hopefully be better off.

Ideally someone would post their wedding, portrait, sports etc. "invoice" so we get more tailored responses.


Websiteexternal link
flickrexternal link

LOG IN TO REPLY
cdifoto
Don't get pissy with me
cdifoto's Avatar
34,039 posts
Joined Dec 2005
Jun 26, 2013 14:06 |  #10

benji25 wrote in post #16067111external link
...which is exactly what people can talk about in this thread. Instead of having 50 threads with "how much should I pay for this" or "how much should I charge for this" people can come in here, see what similar photographers have for expenses, decide where they can charge more, or spend less, and hopefully be better off.

I'd hazard a guess that the things that actually can be compared and shopped around are already pretty equal among photographers. We're all paying pretty much the same for our office supplies and prints and CD cases and things like that.

The stuff that has a real impact on our pricing is stuff that is region specific like rent, gas, food, utilities, etc.

I don't see too many threads asking how much should be paid for something (people seem to be pretty good about shopping around for their own commodities), but I do see threads asking what to charge for their service/product. That's going to be a forever unanswerable question due to all the variables. This thread, even if it goes according to your plan, wouldn't take care of that. You'll just end up with a lot of people sharing how much they pay for rent.

Good luck getting people to divulge their financials though!


Did you lose Digital Photo Professional (DPP)? Get it hereexternal link. Cursing at your worse-than-a-map reflector? Check out this vid!external link

LOG IN TO REPLY
SethWilliams
Member
SethWilliams's Avatar
126 posts
Joined Oct 2012
Cookeville, TN
Jun 26, 2013 14:12 |  #11

cdifoto wrote in post #16067139external link
Good luck getting people to divulge their financials though!

That's the biggest problem. People don't want to post their financials to show how much money they are making (or not making). Plus, what if a customer stumbles upon this thread and finds out I made a ton of $$$ off of them? That wouldn't look good for me.


5D MK II x2 | 35L f1.4 | 85 f1.8 | 135L f2

LOG IN TO REPLY
cdifoto
Don't get pissy with me
cdifoto's Avatar
34,039 posts
Joined Dec 2005
Jun 26, 2013 14:16 |  #12

SethWilliams wrote in post #16067154external link
That's the biggest problem. People don't want to post their financials to show how much money they are making (or not making). Plus, what if a customer stumbles upon this thread and finds out I made a ton of $$$ off of them? That wouldn't look good for me.

My stock answer to that would be "Yeah, I like money as much as you do! So what!?"

Still not sharing my financials though. That's between me and the IRS.


Did you lose Digital Photo Professional (DPP)? Get it hereexternal link. Cursing at your worse-than-a-map reflector? Check out this vid!external link

LOG IN TO REPLY
banquetbear
Goldmember
banquetbear's Avatar
Joined Apr 2010
Wellington, New Zealand
Jun 26, 2013 14:51 as a reply to cdifoto's post |  #13

...yeah, sorry mate, not gonna share my financials either. And as an accountant I would have thought you wouldn't be encouraging others to post their financials either. What I pay for a print is different from what someone in the US pays for a print. I recently bought I USB case from the states: and was mortified to discover that I had to pay more to ship it to NZ than the actual cost of the case. (The last time I will do that!) So you wouldn't get much from a one-to-one comparison anyway between photographers.

But this might help:

http://blog.wonderfulm​achine.com/category/pr​icing-negotiating/external link

The guys over at the Wonderful Machine often show redacted versions of real world invoices and case studies. Its very focused on commercial photography though, and may or may not be what you are looking for.


www.bigmark.co.nzexternal link

LOG IN TO REPLY
benji25
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
benji25's Avatar
Joined Jan 2010
Twin Cities
Jun 26, 2013 15:01 |  #14

I never asked anyone to post their "financials" I asked they to post their expenses related to photography - based on estimates and averages. If you can some how determine my income based on how much I pay for an 8x10 then more power to you - especially if photography is not my main source of income. There are so many other things in your life that contribute to your "financials" that I really don't think it is possible to determine you actual "financials" from this thread - especially if you keep it to not include personal expense like my example.

Also, how many people post what they charge in other threads? Tons. How many people have said how much their equipment is worth in insurance threads? tons. How many people have said how much they pay for webhosting in other threads? tons. I was just trying to get these in to one thread as a point of reference for people who want to know these things - and highlight how much an actual shoot costs so they can know how much to charge.


Websiteexternal link
flickrexternal link

LOG IN TO REPLY
HLxDrummer
Member
240 posts
Joined Aug 2011
Jun 26, 2013 16:22 |  #15

I think it is a good idea. Maybe not 100% accurate but you can get a ball park or at least find other expenses you didn't expect to have. I can somewhat understand not posting if your username is the same as your business but other than that, what is the big deal! Everybody knows that everyone is making a profit.. When I buy an engagement ring and see the owners Lexus outside I know I am paying for that.. it is life!


40D with Tamron 17-50MM f/2.8 & Canon 85MM f/1.8 & Canon 55-250MM f/4-5.6
YN-565 with (2) RF-603s
1993 3000GT VR4 & 1993 Trek 2500Pro & 1980's Schwinn World Sport

LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as registered member)

4,430 views & 0 likes for this thread
Post your itemized invoice
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography


Not a member yet? Click here to register to the forums.
Registered members get all the features: search, following threads, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, settings, view hosted photos, own reviews and more...


AAA

Send feedback to staff    •   Jump to forum...    •   Rules    •   Index    •   New posts    •   RTAT    •   'Best of'    •   Gallery    •   Gear    •   Reviews    •   Polls

COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Privacy policy and cookie usage info.

POWERED BY AMASS 1.4version 1.4
made in Finland
by Pekka Saarinen
for photography-on-the.net
Spent 0.00222 for 5 database queries.
PAGE COMPLETED IN 0.03s
Latest registered member is Latino Toons
856 guests, 293 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 6430, that happened on Dec 03, 2017