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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Fashion, Editorial & Commercial Talk
Thread started 21 Apr 2015 (Tuesday) 18:49
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Guess those who can't do, do teach.

 
AZGeorge
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Dec 08, 2016 16:11 |  #31

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18206221 (external link)
I would have thought it was self evident that someone who had completed a degree course would be in a better position to teach that course than someone who had never done it, a degree in photography, or whatever subject really, has a lot more behind it than the title suggests, it's not sitting around taking pictures for three years.

Not at all self evident says this holder of advanced degrees.

From a hiring perspective, gatekeeping by degree saves time but also eliminates great candidates. There is, I think, no substitute for the hard labor of interviews, reference checks, portfolio review, more reference checks, and, in some settings, audition. Followed by even more reference checks.

In my opinion, great teachers are both born and made. They come in all the various shapes and sizes. The challenge is to find, hire and nurture them.


George
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welshwizard1971
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Dec 10, 2016 01:43 |  #32

And as a holder of two science degrees, the first lesson of which would be to challenge everything and assume nothing, if you reread my post, I didn't say otherwise, I was just pointing out being good at field work doesn't automatically make you competant let alone good at academic work, and most definately vice versa. They are very different skill sets and personality types, It's a rare animal that can do both.


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Wilt
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Post has been edited 11 months ago by Wilt.
Dec 13, 2016 12:24 |  #33

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18206221 (external link)
I would have thought it was self evident that someone who had completed a degree course would be in a better position to teach that course than someone who had never done it, a degree in photography, or whatever subject really, has a lot more behind it than the title suggests, it's not sitting around taking pictures for three years.

Some of the WORST teachers of mathematics are holders of Masters degree in Math! It is a bit of an art to teach, as pupils are different in their learning methods which work best for them, and a poor teacher -- even of a subject they themselves have mastered as students -- fails to recognize when a student needs the same stuff presented in a slightly different way. Sometimes the academic mastery was so 'intuitive' to someone that they cannot comprehend how a more 'normal' student cannot grasp the concepts!


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welshwizard1971
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Dec 13, 2016 15:12 |  #34

Good luck finding amateur enthusiasts/self taught professionals who can teach maths to degree level! Artists, photographers, musicians, writers, but mathematicians??


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Tom ­ Reichner
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Post has been edited 11 months ago by Tom Reichner.
Dec 14, 2016 05:06 |  #35

.

texkam wrote in post #17527009 (external link)
Guess those who can't do, do teach.

I think you have an extra "do" in there.

The saying is, "Those who can't do, teach." And it was derived from the saying, "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach."

texkam wrote in post #17527455 (external link)
My point is, quit being lazy by only considering one's formal schooling.

It isn't laziness at all. It is promoting their own product, which is good business.

People who are involved in college administration are all about formal education. Colleges and universities try to impress upon their students and prospective students the importance, the necessity, of formal education and the resultant degree. It would be quite hypocritical to emphatically tell a student body how essential it is to have a degree from an accredited collegiate program, and then to hire professorial staff who have no such degree.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "peace of mind", NOT "piece of mind".

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texkam
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By The Lake in Big D
Dec 14, 2016 06:24 |  #36

It isn't laziness at all. It is promoting their own product, which is good business.

People who are involved in college administration are all about formal education. Colleges and universities try to impress upon their students and prospective students the importance, the necessity, of formal education and the resultant degree. It would be quite hypocritical to emphatically tell a student body how essential it is to have a degree from an accredited collegiate program, and then to hire professorial staff who have no such degree.

Yes! That's it! Never really thought about it that way. Thank you. You win the thread. ☺

BTW, thanks for pointing out the typo. D'oh.




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Tom ­ Reichner
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Dec 14, 2016 12:54 |  #37

texkam wrote in post #18212683 (external link)
Yes! That's it! Never really thought about it that way. Thank you. You win the thread. ☺

Gee, thanks. I never won a thread before!

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "peace of mind", NOT "piece of mind".

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EOS-Mike
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Post has been last edited 10 months ago by EOS-Mike. 2 edits done in total.
Dec 29, 2016 12:05 |  #38

As a teacher, I see this debate a lot.

I believe the original quote about those who can, do, and those who can't, teach is attributed to George Bernard Shaw.

The first time I saw that quote was when, coincidentally, I began teaching. I was offended. But I was also curious. What exactly does that mean?

On the surface it suggests that if you're good enough to do something (say, throw a football accurately), then you do that and make a living. But once you're "washed up" or if you were never quite good enough to make it, then you teach it to beginners, since you know a lot about it or were once able to do it.

But that kind of thinking is very simplistic and isn't productive.

Teaching is a skill, and a bit of an art form, that requires a mastery of teaching. It really requires an understanding of how people think and how to motivate people.

Take golf or acting, for example. The top-level pros still engage in hiring coaches. Why? If we go by Shaw's assumption that a top golfer has nothing to learn from a golf coach, then why do all top-level professionals seek coaching?

It's because coaching is a separate skill set.

Think of it another way. I'm an excellent driver. My clean record goes back to 1994. I look both ways twice, actually follow all the rules of the road, and don't speed. But I do not like teaching my daughters how to drive. I'm not patient enough with them and, frankly, find it quite frightening. It's incredibly stressful for me.

Hiring someone who teaches it professionally is worth it. That person knows what he or she is doing. And they took courses themselves in how to teach it.


Finally, I teach engineering and technology to middle school students. I used to teach reading to elementary school students. I don't need to be an engineer or a professional reader (I suppose there is such a thing) to be able to teach it. I need to understand how the tween and teen mind thinks. I need to be able to manage 25-30 different personalities, help them focus, work, cooperate, and appreciate the subject. I also need to help them succeed.

Could a real engineer come in and teach these classes? Maybe. But I've had a lot of guest speakers and demonstrators over the years, and I can tell in the first five minutes of the lesson if it is going to head south. And when it does I have to try to patch it up in a way that helps the guest save face. Not easy. Sometimes they have no idea what they are doing, so the fact that they are excellent engineers doesn't matter if they can't keep the attention of a room full of teenagers.


About qualifications: Even if someone is the greatest photographer in the world, he or she needs training in how to teach and guided practice in teaching others. The degrees required to be a teacher or professor are also there to make sure that the teacher or professor is serious and dedicated, long term, to the career of teaching. It's a proving ground in a sense.


That said, another hallmark of a great teacher is one who brings in the pros to help the students see the real world connections and to hear the anecdotal aspects of the career.


In conclusion, there are many teachers that CAN do but choose not to because they actually find teaching to be more fulfilling or stable. Many acting coaches come to mind. They don't participate on stage or on film because they don't want to.

A great example is Ron Howard. He would rather direct the actors than act. We all know he can act, but that's not what he wants to do.


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texkam
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By The Lake in Big D
Dec 29, 2016 13:15 |  #39

I agree with so many of these comments. Teaching is a distinct discipline. I was just amused with a local community college not even being willing to consider, for an adjunct position, any candidate that may be able to bring a wealth of talent to the position .....provided they also have the talent to teach.

I use to teach a course on desktop publishing at a small Dallas college. I only had a Bachelor Degree, but had a couple of decades in the business world and eight years of primary school substitute teaching. Things worked out well and I was grateful for the consideration.

No one I personally knew was applying for this position. It just made me think how many folks on this forum could even meet these requirements of a master's degree or higher in photojournalism. I know no photographers, or graphic designers in my case, with Doctorate degrees. BTW, the person I referenced earlier did indeed win the Pulitzer in photojournalism.




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EOS-Mike
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Jan 01, 2017 16:58 as a reply to texkam's post |  #40

Generally, if someone has the experience and puts together a good curriculum, the school should allow (if the state allows it) a kind of work/study, or on-the-job training type of thing to help earn certification.

Where I teach, Metro Atlanta, there are areas with teacher shortages and they will often let someone who doesn't have certification come in and teach with extra supervision and with requirements that they attend classes to work toward gaining certification.


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