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Thread started 19 Mar 2016 (Saturday) 17:44
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Godox X1 system integration thread

 
owenegan
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Mar 19, 2016 17:44 |  #1

I thought I'd start a thread for detailed, specific questions and answers about how the X1 system components work together and with various other flashes and triggers.

I currently use the Canon RT system (both Canon and Yongnuo components) and aim to migrate to the Godox X1 system when and if I can assure myself it's stable enough. To that end, I have started reading manuals and testing things. If I find anything that might help others I'll post it here.

The equipment I will be testing is:

Godox:

3 x AD360 (Flashpoint branded)
3 x XTR-16
1 x Godox TT685C (fw version 2.9 as of Mar. 19, 2016)
3 x X1T-C (fw version 11)
2 x X1R-C (fw version 11)

and

3 x Canon 600EX-RT
2 x Yongnuo YN600EX-RT (fw v. 1.8.4.)
1 x Rovelight RL-600B

Owen




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owenegan
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Mar 19, 2016 18:29 |  #2

Re X1T-C v. 11

I've found one error in the manual, and one bug in the firmware:

The error is:

Page 33 of the manual (Godox_X1C_20160219.PD​F)
section "Setting the Transmitter"
dot point "Group Settings"
paragraph 3

The third sentence reads:

"If the current group is in the TTL mode, all the other groups which are in the M mode will change their FEC amount simultaneously"

I believe this should read instead:

"If the current group is in the TTL mode, all the other groups which are also in the TTL mode will change their FEC amount simultaneously"


The bug:

One of the cooler features of the X1T-C is its ability, when in <Gr> mode, to adjust the power levels of all groups simultaneously. This feature works, but not *quite* as it is supposed to as per the manual.

After entering the global power-adjustment mode by long-pressing the Gr button, the manual says:

==========
If the current group is in the M mode, all the other groups which are in the M mode will change their power output value simultaneously. The power output value is changeable from 1/1 full power to Min. power in 0.3 stop increments, until one of the group’s setting turns to the maximum(1/1) or the minimum(Min.)
==========

This behavior works correctly when turning power levels UP, but not when turning them DOWN.

For example, if

Group A is at 1/2
Group B is at 1/8

and you begin increasing the global power level, after three upward clicks of the wheel, Group A will be at full power and Group B will be at 1/4. Any more upward adjustment will do nothing to the setting of either group. The X1T-C will stay at 1/1 on group A and 1/4 on group B, maintaining the ratio, just as the manual says it does.

However, things are different when turning global power levels down.

e.g. if

Group A is at 1/64
Group B is at 1/32

and you begin decreasing global power levels, after three downward clicks Group A will reach the minimum 1/128 level. HOWEVER, subsequent downward clicks will continue turning down other Groups' power levels until they all show 1/128. At that point, any ratios the user had set up via power levels will be lost, since all groups will be at 1/128.

I've just noticed that this anomaly goes away if you set the X1T-C custom function 5 to "1". This CF enables a lower minimum power setting of 1/256 (shown on the LCD as "128-") although I think this only works on the AD600 flashes. So, it's not a fix really (unless you're ONLY using AD600s) but it is a workaround of sorts.

===

Owen.




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feeda
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Post has been edited over 1 year ago by feeda.
Mar 19, 2016 19:14 |  #3

Hopefully this is on-topic. I'm wondering about the nature of the hotshoe on top of the X1-C transmitter. Is it a "true" passthrough (comments on the Internet suggest otherwise)? If not, then what is it? Does it permit another TTL trigger to be stacked on top (Profoto TTL Air Remote, Interfit S1 remote, Phottix, Yongnuo...) and be fully functional? How about a TTL flash? Is it a center-pin sync only, despite the hotshoe looking exactly like a Canon ETTL hotshoe? Will it pass through custom functions from a stacked flash to the camera? Will exposure compensation, lens zoom, and other information work correctly? What if I change the global exposure on the X1 transmitter--will that also affect the top-mounted device (probably not, but one can hope)?

Oh, and when will TTL work for the 7DII and other newer cameras?




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owenegan
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Mar 19, 2016 19:29 as a reply to feeda's post |  #4

It's definitely not a pass-through.

I tried putting a 600EX-RT in the X1T-C's shoe, but things got really weird quickly, so I stopped. In the short time it was on, I saw the 600EX's AF assist light illuminating in an unusual way, and there was an associated noise from the flash I hadn't heard before. Not willing to risk cooking a $500 flash with a $40 trigger, I stopped.

I did a little testing last night with a simple, one-pin flash trigger for my monolight (RL-600) in the shoe of the X1T-C and it appeared to work, but I need to do more systematic testing...




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agv8or
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Mar 19, 2016 19:56 |  #5

feeda wrote in post #17941163 (external link)
Hopefully this is on-topic. I'm wondering about the nature of the hotshoe on top of the X1-C transmitter. Is it a "true" passthrough (comments on the Internet suggest otherwise)? If not, then what is it? Does it permit another TTL trigger to be stacked on top (Profoto TTL Air Remote, Interfit S1 remote, Phottix, Yongnuo...) and be fully functional? How about a TTL flash? Is it a center-pin sync only, despite the hotshoe looking exactly like a Canon ETTL hotshoe? Will it pass through custom functions from a stacked flash to the camera? Will exposure compensation, lens zoom, and other information work correctly? What if I change the global exposure on the X1 transmitter--will that also affect the top-mounted device (probably not, but one can hope)?

Oh, and when will TTL work for the 7DII and other newer cameras?

Speaking entirely based on the Canon version. The hot shoe on the X1 is not a true "TTL pass through" hot shoe like that found on a Phottix Strato II transmitter. The hot shoe on the X1 does not allow direct communication of the device in the hot shoe with the camera. When you shut down the X1, you shut down the hot shoe. The Strato II which has a true "TTL pass through" hot shoe allows for all communication from the camera to "pass through" to the device in the hot shoe and the hot shoe remains live even when the Phottix Strato II is turned "OFF".

The Canon TTL system only allows for 1 device to communicate TTL information with the camera. If two TTL devices are trying to communicate with the camera then you start to see weird things happen. For anyone who has ever tried to use one of those dual TTL "off shoe" cords with two Speedlites set to ETTL can testify. Since the X1 is already the primary TTL device communicating with the camera then there cannot be another TTL device trying to do so. So the hot shoe of the X1 is solely controlled by the X1 itself. All TTL communication happening in the hot shoe of the X1 is directed by the X1 itself.

The X1 hot shoe is basically an X1-c receiver in Group A. If you place a Canon compatible Speedlite in the hot shoe, set to the non wireless configuration, then that flash will be controlled as part of Group A just as if it were in the hot shoe of an X1R-C receiver set to Group A.

You cannot use a TTL transmitter in the hot shoe of the X1 unless you are able to deactive the TTL pins or you tape them. Non TTL transmitters, like the Godox FT16 and the RL600B transmitter, can benefit from the X1 control of the hot shoe because the X1 takes the FP HSS sync signal sent from the camera and sends it to the center post so that these triggers can be used in HSS. The X1's flash sync timing can then be used to maximize the flash exposure of a flash using Faux HSS.

So your question in regard to FEC, Zoom, Global FEC etc will work the same as if that flash were in an X1 receiver set to Group A. Of course if you were using a manul flash such as the TT850 ot TT600 then there would be no communication other than triggering.


Rand

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owenegan
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Mar 19, 2016 20:31 as a reply to agv8or's post |  #6

Hi Rand.

I've just spent 10 mins playing with a 600EX-RT in the shoe of the X1T-C on a 5DIII.

When first powered on, it acts as you described - essentially just as if it were in a X1R set to group A. But within a few minutes / 10-20 frames it starts acting strangely. The flash's AF illuminator comes on - sometimes for a second or two, sometimes seemingly permanently.

Once it gets into this state, nothing fixes it and gets things back to normal except power-cycling the X1T. (i.e. power-cycling the flash and/or camera does not fix it)

A couple of times I have also seen the flash appear to "go dead" despite the power switch being on - i.e. the LCD goes blank and the red ready LED goes off.

- So far my testing has all been in Gr mode
- I think I have noted a correlation between use of FEL and the X1T going into this state, but I'm not 100% sure.
- I have not yet found a way to provoke the weird behavior reliably.

Have you (or anyone with a X1T-C v.11 and a 600EX-RT) ever seen anything like this?

Thanks,

Owen.




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owenegan
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Mar 19, 2016 20:58 as a reply to owenegan's post |  #7

some additional info:

I've now replicated this problem with two different 600EX-RT units, and two different X1T-C units.

I tried to eliminated possible electrical miscommunication due to torque on the pins by testing with the camera on a stable, level platform.

I noted that at the same moment the flash's AF illuminator comes on (inexplicably), the red ready-light LED on the back of the flash goes OFF, and there is a an odd ticking sound coming from the flash. When the AF illumintor does off, a moment later the ready-light comes back on.

It's almost as if whatever is going on with the illuminator is draining the flash capacitor(?) significantly, making the ready light go out...

Hopefully we'll get some data points from other users at some point...




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agv8or
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Mar 19, 2016 22:07 |  #8

owenegan wrote in post #17941227 (external link)
Hi Rand.

I've just spent 10 mins playing with a 600EX-RT in the shoe of the X1T-C on a 5DIII.

When first powered on, it acts as you described - essentially just as if it were in a X1R set to group A. But within a few minutes / 10-20 frames it starts acting strangely. The flash's AF illuminator comes on - sometimes for a second or two, sometimes seemingly permanently.

Once it gets into this state, nothing fixes it and gets things back to normal except power-cycling the X1T. (i.e. power-cycling the flash and/or camera does not fix it)

A couple of times I have also seen the flash appear to "go dead" despite the power switch being on - i.e. the LCD goes blank and the red ready LED goes off.

- So far my testing has all been in Gr mode
- I think I have noted a correlation between use of FEL and the X1T going into this state, but I'm not 100% sure.
- I have not yet found a way to provoke the weird behavior reliably.

Have you (or anyone with a X1T-C v.11 and a 600EX-RT) ever seen anything like this?

Thanks,

Owen.

owenegan wrote in post #17941249 (external link)
some additional info:

I've now replicated this problem with two different 600EX-RT units, and two different X1T-C units.

I tried to eliminated possible electrical miscommunication due to torque on the pins by testing with the camera on a stable, level platform.

I noted that at the same moment the flash's AF illuminator comes on (inexplicably), the red ready-light LED on the back of the flash goes OFF, and there is a an odd ticking sound coming from the flash. When the AF illumintor does off, a moment later the ready-light comes back on.

It's almost as if whatever is going on with the illuminator is draining the flash capacitor(?) significantly, making the ready light go out...

Hopefully we'll get some data points from other users at some point...


Owen

You're much braver than me. 2 600EX's? No I have not experienced any thing like this with my Canon 600EX's. I use YN600EX's for testing the X1 hot shoe. :-)

Normally I would try to replicate your findings but to be honest I like my 600EX's. I'll see what happens with the YN600EX's.

You know that if Godox would build a professional flash, with the swivel head of an AD360II that tilts rearward initially, for those of us who bounce flash and hate to have to go all the way around forward just to bounce flash off our left shoulder rather than our right; and with all the features of the X1 transmitter and few more like displaying 5 Groups on screen at once and with direct Group selectability; if we had the ability to select sets of individual Groups to globally control flash exposure values; and about 20 or more other features that I have sent a list of to Godox. Then there would be non of this nonsense in trying to mount a shoe flash in the hot shoe of the X1. ;-)a

For any one who will listen, since this is the Godox X1 system integration thread.

The best piece of advice I can give in using a flash in the hot shoe of the X1 is "do not do it"! It's an accident waiting to happen. In more ways than one.

Ok so no one is listening. -?

I am not sure where all this "TTL pass through" hot shoe stuff started but it definitely is not a "TTL pass through" hot shoe so lets get that clear right from the start. I described above why it is not nor can it be. So for everyone who thinks they're going to create the greatest dual TTL transmitter wireless system ever....forget about it. It ain't going to happen. It can't happen. You're just going to screw up a TTL flash, TTL transmitter or the X1 transmitter itself.

In all my testing that I have done I have found that the X1 hot shoe is nothing more than a Group A receiver. That's it, all it is. The only difference between the X1 hot shoe and an X1 receiver is that the information sent to the X1 hot shoe is direct rather than wireless, and it is only Group A information.

The problem with the X1 system is it's very aggressive with any TTL flash placed in the hot shoe of the X1 or an X1 receiver. This has scared me from the start. It takes total control of the flash and if you do not have it set to non wireless configuration or you try to change out of non wireless configuration while it is in the hot shoe of the X1 or an X1 receiver weird things start to happen, bad things start to happen.

But what do I know?


Rand

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agv8or
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Mar 19, 2016 23:48 |  #9

owenegan wrote in post #17941249 (external link)
some additional info:

I've now replicated this problem with two different 600EX-RT units, and two different X1T-C units.

I tried to eliminated possible electrical miscommunication due to torque on the pins by testing with the camera on a stable, level platform.

I noted that at the same moment the flash's AF illuminator comes on (inexplicably), the red ready-light LED on the back of the flash goes OFF, and there is a an odd ticking sound coming from the flash. When the AF illumintor does off, a moment later the ready-light comes back on.

It's almost as if whatever is going on with the illuminator is draining the flash capacitor(?) significantly, making the ready light go out...

Hopefully we'll get some data points from other users at some point...

How are you getting the Flash AF assist to illuminate? That requires direct camera hot shoe connection. Something doesn't seem right.

What flash configuration are you using? You should never use a TTL Canon compatible flash in the hot shoe of the X1 or an X1 receiver in anything but "non wireless" configuration. Now it is not necessary to set the flash to ETTL, as other TTL receivers may require, as the X1 system is going to put the flash into what ever mode the X1 transmitter is set to for a particular Group.


Rand

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abbadon31
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Post has been edited over 1 year ago by abbadon31.
Mar 20, 2016 00:23 |  #10

agv8or wrote in post #17941288 (external link)
I am not sure where all this "TTL pass through" hot shoe stuff started but it definitely is not a "TTL pass through" hot shoe so lets get that clear right from the start
?

I think people might have mis understood one of my statements.
You can use the New TT685 or the new v860 in the hot shoe of the X-1 and it will do ETTL, thats because it running off the 2.4 radio and communicating between the camera and the X-1. Not Thru the Hotshoe its self.


I AM SHOM

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agv8or
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Post has been last edited over 1 year ago by agv8or. 4 edits done in total.
Mar 20, 2016 02:45 |  #11

abbadon31 wrote in post #17941378 (external link)
I think people might have mis understood one of my statements.
You can use the New TT685 or the new v860 in the hot shoe of the X-1 and it will do ETTL, thats because it running off the 2.4 radio and communicating between the camera and the X-1. Not Thru the Hotshoe its self.

No you can't take all the credit for that, this is not a recent thing. I think it started with this article back in August http://www.lightingrum​ours.com/godox-x1-c-7462 (external link) People see a hot shoe on a transmitter and they just call it a "TTL pass though" hot shoe.

Edit: When the 685, in radio Slave, is in the hot shoe of the X1, without the pins taped, it does not matter what channel it is set to, it still takes commands from the X1 so it's communicating through the hot shoe 100% at this point (given that the X1 and 685 channels are different). When the 685 channel is not the same as the X1, the flash power can only be controlled for Group A but the X1 will change modes and trigger the flash no matter what the Slave flash Group is set to.

Now when the channels are set the same and you are in TTL mode, the X1 will not let the 685 access the individual flash FEC but, with the pins taped you can set an individual flash FEC so again there is some communication going on through the hot shoe. So how much is 2.4G radio communication and how much is through the TTL pins? I know that if the pins are taped there is "0" hot shoe communication. But if the pins are untapped is the 2.4G radio only controlling the flash exposure value of the different Groups, and the mode changes and triggering still communicated through the hot shoe or is those two functions now communicated via radio as well?


Rand

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dmward
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Mar 20, 2016 10:07 |  #12

Its been awhile since I've used the Canon 600EX-RT system but here are my thoughts about the testing as described;

A) "TTL pass through" is a term that probably first reared its head when PW came out with the ControlTL system. Yongnou, when they developed the 622 system designated the top of the transmitter on the camera as a Group A slave device. Alternatively Phottix and maybe others, came up with a hard wired relationship between the camera and the hot shoe on top of the transmitter. That's "TTL pass through" its the only way that the flash can be the controller. The transmitter then sends the commands to the receivers.

B) Canon, when they developed the RT ETTL protocols added features and associated additional control messages. That's one reason why they said it would only work well with cameras designed after 2012. My suspicion is that there is some control message mis-match between the X1 and the 600EX-RT. That's to be expected since all the third party RT ETTL firmware is reverse engineered and there is no way to know all the possible message traffic between the controller and the attached device without actually running it through an protocol analyzer. There are always going to be unusual situations such as imperfect communications linkage with dirty or misaligned pins that will fool the protocol.

Naturally Canon has no incentive to make the RT ETTL protocol public. That means that Godox and others will have to wade through it via reverse engineering brute force until they find all the possible permutations.


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

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abbadon31
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Mar 20, 2016 10:52 |  #13

This week we start testing the Sony version of Godox products.


I AM SHOM

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dmward
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Mar 20, 2016 13:42 |  #14

abbadon31 wrote in post #17941690 (external link)
X-1 and Receiver
Just to clear some things up that people on the net might be posting wrong or misunderstood.

1. The X-1 does not have a pass thru TTL shoe. If you have a new X-System flash on top of the X-1 your TTL information is received from the 2.4 radio from that flash to the X-1 then to your camera. So if your running a Non X-System flash you will only get a firing signal from the hot shoe NO TTL.

2. The X-1 Receiver:
The receiver is not a TTL receiver even thou it has a TTL hot shoe mount. The receiver is just to allow you to assign it a group, a channel and a firing signal. This aid if your using a non X-System strobe and flash to be in a group/channel and a firing signal.

I hope this will clear up any confusion.
[XATTACH]782306[/XATTA​CH]

Too bad the receiver don't support TTL. It would add substantially to the system capabilities.


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

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dmward
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Post has been edited over 1 year ago by dmward.
Mar 20, 2016 13:43 |  #15

abbadon31 wrote in post #17941739 (external link)
This week we start testing the Sony version of Godox products.

That's good news.
Speedlites, bare bulb and X-1? Or just the Speedlites?


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

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