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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk
Thread started 12 Jul 2016 (Tuesday) 06:45
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New to RAW image questions

 
Transient ­ W.A.S.P.
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Jul 12, 2016 06:45 |  #1

I am new to shooting RAW. Recently, I got home from an event and started checking photos. Everything in RAW looks more blurry and grainy than my JPEGs. Is this normal before you edit or alter them? It doesn't matter what the settings were when I took each shot, they are all like this. Using a Canon 70D with a Tokina 11-16mm Wide Angle and Canon 18-135mm kit lens. Thanks in advance!


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mike_311
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Jul 12, 2016 07:06 |  #2

depending on the software you are using to view them there may not be any sharpening or noise reduction applied as jpeg. raw conversion software will usually apply some sharpening and noise reduction by default but it may not be as much as the camera is doing.

so you understand what happens when you shoot jpeg: the camera always captures a raw image, then applies the set wb, saturation, contrast, etc, plus some noise reduction and sharpening, compresses the image, saves it and then discards the raw image.

the camera isnt doing anything different during the initial capture whether you are only saving raw or jpeg, just that when you save raw only you are seeing an unedited image.

Raw conversion software will have noise and sharpening options that should allow you to essentially recreate what the camera does automatically if you chose to. What make Raw so great, besides having control over all the editing, you always have that original capture to revert to so you can undo something that doesn't work well.


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Transient ­ W.A.S.P.
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Jul 12, 2016 07:17 as a reply to mike_311's post |  #3

Thank you very much. I didn't know JPEG was pre-edited. That makes sense.


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chauncey
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Jul 12, 2016 09:11 |  #4

I didn't know JPEG was pre-edited.

Aah, have you read your manual?


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Transient ­ W.A.S.P.
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Jul 12, 2016 11:20 as a reply to chauncey's post |  #5

Yes, it doesn't say much about RAW, just that differences in file sizes.


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tonylong
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Aug 04, 2016 13:08 |  #6

A couple approaches:

1) If you install (and use the Canon software Digital Photography Professional (DPP) you can shoot RAW using camera settings for what you would prefer for a decent JPEG. The DPP software will display your RAW images using those settings. You can examine and compare images, either in a "bare" RAW processor or in DPP by disabling all the settings, and from there you can get an idea of where to go with RAW post processing

2) You can, if you wish, shoot RAW+JPEG, view both, check out your camera settings, and that way get an idea without resorting to the separate DPP software.

The point is, as has been said, the camera applies processing to your photos to produce JPEGs! The good news with RAW is that you can apply your own processing and, as you go, you can improve your processing/enhancing beyond the JPEG level!


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gjl711
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Aug 04, 2016 13:55 |  #7

Transient W.A.S.P. wrote in post #18064813 (external link)
Thank you very much. I didn't know JPEG was pre-edited. That makes sense.

Don't think of it a pre-edited. It is processed exactly the same way as you would do using some program such as DPP , Lightroom, photoshop, etc. It is a fully processed image using the settings of the camera. The only real difference is that once a jpeg image is processed in the camera, you loose much of the information which is in the raw file so adjustments are much more difficult. Raw data retains all of the information at the time of capture so that you can still apply the standard in camera settings and generate a jpeg, or modify the settings as you see best. All raw does is gives you flexibility.


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mike_311
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Aug 06, 2016 10:49 |  #8

one thing to add is you CANNOT modify a RAW file. so you have documented proof you took an image and that what it shows is 100% "real". any edits you make in software are saved as another filetype and the raw is retained (unless you delete it) if you save as jog only in camera, the camera will discard the RAW after the jpeg settings are applied. you still have an original image but it can be modified.


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Luckless
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Aug 06, 2016 11:38 |  #9

mike_311 wrote in post #18088049 (external link)
one thing to add is you CANNOT modify a RAW file. so you have documented proof you took an image and that what it shows is 100% "real". any edits you make in software are saved as another filetype and the raw is retained (unless you delete it) if you save as jog only in camera, the camera will discard the RAW after the jpeg settings are applied. you still have an original image but it can be modified.

Exactly the same as you cannot possibly modify a photographic negative, right?
(.cr2 files and such are digital data. The only thing that really 'prevents' editing is a lack of readily accessible tools, and measures to ensure any amount of security are merely speedbumps to someone with the suitable technical skill from modifying data in photoshop and then reprocessing back into a .cr2 or similar data format.)


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Wilt
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Post has been edited over 1 year ago by Wilt.
Aug 06, 2016 11:57 |  #10

Look at the Picture Style which you have set on your camera. Look at the Sharpness setting within the Picture Style. Most settings have some Sharpness dialed in by default, with exceptions of Faithful and Neutral.

DPP attempts to match the in-camera values set by the chosen Picture Style for JPG (which also is applied to create the preview image embedded in the RAW file stored in camera), when doing RAW conversion, but other RAW convertors do not apply any settings apart from what YOU might have set up as a Preset set of values to apply by default when bringing photos into the RAW convertor.


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mike_311
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Aug 06, 2016 13:05 |  #11

Luckless wrote in post #18088108 (external link)
Exactly the same as you cannot possibly modify a photographic negative, right?
(.cr2 files and such are digital data. The only thing that really 'prevents' editing is a lack of readily accessible tools, and measures to ensure any amount of security are merely speedbumps to someone with the suitable technical skill from modifying data in photoshop and then reprocessing back into a .cr2 or similar data format.)

which is impossible unless you know the bit layout of .cr2.

has anyone ever modified a .cr2? it would be a pretty big deal if someone was able to since it could have forensic and investigational data implications. Canon has never publicly published its raw format and the only way to get it would be to reverse engineer it which has yet to be done successfully as far as i know or at least hasn't been published.


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Luckless
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Aug 06, 2016 15:20 |  #12

mike_311 wrote in post #18088191 (external link)
which is impossible unless you know the bit layout of .cr2.

has anyone ever modified a .cr2? it would be a pretty big deal if someone was able to since it could have forensic and investigational data implications. Canon has never publicly published its raw format and the only way to get it would be to reverse engineer it which has yet to be done successfully as far as i know or at least hasn't been published.

You mean something like the specs shown here: http://lclevy.free.fr/​cr2/ (external link) ?
Or editing as described here? https://jabriffa.wordp​ress.com ...writing-camera-raw-files/ (external link)

Canon does/did have a sort of 'security checksum' that the camera can embed along side the image data, but it is almost never used due to being off by default. However even that is possible to reverse engineer for anyone who truly wants to get at it. You can't keep something a secret if you hand it to someone in a box and let them go poke at it in private.


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Luckless
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Aug 06, 2016 15:48 |  #13

kjonnnn wrote in post #18088320 (external link)
Hmmm. While you cant modify a negative once its processed, methods of processing can affect it before it's in its final state, so there can be "modification" done in the processing. A raw file is not processed at all.

I was referring to using interstage negatives. Modify the image onto positive film, then transfer again onto negative film. "Look, a totally original film negative that totally hasn't been modified..."

And see my previous post: raw image formats are not secure, and it is possible to write information into .cr2 files that will then appear to work and function just like a file generated by a camera. The camera contains a little computer that writes the data, but nothing about the format prevents me from taking a completely unrelated computer and writing whatever I want to into it.


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gjl711
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Aug 06, 2016 18:30 |  #14

mike_311 wrote in post #18088049 (external link)
one thing to add is you CANNOT modify a RAW file. so you have documented proof you took an image and that what it shows is 100% "real". any edits you make in software are saved as another filetype and the raw is retained (unless you delete it) if you save as jog only in camera, the camera will discard the RAW after the jpeg settings are applied. you still have an original image but it can be modified.

Raw editors are quite common as are exif editors. It's not hard at all to change any data.


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tonylong
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Aug 07, 2016 23:56 |  #15

mike_311 wrote in post #18088191 (external link)
has anyone ever modified a .cr2? it would be a pretty big deal if someone was able to since it could have forensic and investigational data implications. Canon has never publicly published its raw format and the only way to get it would be to reverse engineer it which has yet to be done successfully as far as i know or at least hasn't been published.

Luckless wrote in post #18088309 (external link)
You mean something like the specs shown here: http://lclevy.free.fr/​cr2/ (external link) ?
Or editing as described here? https://jabriffa.wordp​ress.com ...writing-camera-raw-files/ (external link)

Canon does/did have a sort of 'security checksum' that the camera can embed along side the image data, but it is almost never used due to being off by default. However even that is possible to reverse engineer for anyone who truly wants to get at it. You can't keep something a secret if you hand it to someone in a box and let them go poke at it in private.

Interesting bit of discussion...

On the fundamental, low level, I'd say yeah, a RAW processing programmer could "force" changes to RAW data. I'm glad that they don't -- I prefer keeping RAW as a non-destructive format, but hey, I never delved into the field of digital image engineering, so who knows?

So maybe, as suggested, Canon and other "makers" established some security to try to prevent "tinkering"? I don't know, but I'm glad that established RAW processors seem to honor it...

It's interesting, though, that Canon and other makers can and do alter the actual data when a shot is passed through the Analog to Digital processor. This is typical for ISO values, for example -- the sensor collects the "raw" exposure/R/G/B data, and it is passed through the processor, where it is amplified according to the ISO settings, and then saved as the raw data (not compiled RGB pixels)!

That all can certainly spin the brain a bit, but it can be fun to contemplate!


Tony
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