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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Architecture, Real-Estate & Buildings Talk
Thread started 09 Feb 2017 (Thursday) 16:46
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Providing edited as well as SOOC photos to a client?

 
heldGaze
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Atlanta, GA
Feb 09, 2017 16:46 |  #1

I have a prospective client who is used to having his friend "run & gun" with a DSLR kit lens. After showing him the difference between an image SOOC and one having undergone my post to correct lens distortion, adjust colors, contrast, sharpening, etc. he became much more amenable to my pricing structure, very impressed with the work.

However, these guys like to flood the MLS with the maximum 40 images. What I like to do, is after shooting, put together a quick proof set of the 40-60 usable images, and let the client choose which selects will be edited, based on the package: Basic is 15 edited photos, Enhanced is 20-25, Premium 25-30, spending 1-1.5 hours, 1.5-2 hours, and 2-3 hours on site respectively.

Well, this client is now asking to get the Enhanced package, but also wants delivery of the rest of the proof set SOOC without editing. He expects that at the same pricing. Or creating another package where they 10 edited photos, and 30 SOOC. I really dislike this idea because someone looking at the listing isn't going to know which photos are edited and which are SOOC, and then think, this photographer is crap.

I was willing to give him an exception, where instead of one of my standard packages with post processing done, I was going to provide him with 40 images SOOC, at a slight discount off my Basic package price. It saves me the time in editing, and to any prospective clients I could explain, all those photos were SOOC and received no post to correct the distortions from the lens or correct color/contrast issues.

So basically, I'm curious, does anyone do this? Does anyone give a client some edited photos and some SOOC images as well? If so, what kind of markup do you add for the additional SOOC photos? Like I said, I think I'm going to shoot down the idea because it doesn't reflect well upon me as a photographer.

Honestly I dislike the idea of the complete SOOC package, but hell, it's more money per hour. And for my own portfolio website, I would edit the photos to post there.

So trying to find a way to still get this gig, but also not agree to the mixture of edited and SOOC photos. Just going to have to gently explain, that's not professional, I don't know of any real estate photographers who do such a thing. I also don't think he has read through the License Agreement I sent him, and doesn't understand he's licensing usage of the photos, not ownership. I'm going to have to explain to him that no alterations to the delivered images is allowed.

The job is a ranch style home with basement, it's a 4/3, no excessively high ceilings and will be listed in the mid-300s. After seeing my edits, he asked how much a package with 40 edited photos would be. Since this is my first time working with him, I have been giving him some "introductory discounts". The property is about 10-15 miles outside the radius where I would usually charge a small travel fee, which I said I would waive. And I normally I'd charge $40 per 5 extra photos above a standard package rate, but I added only $50 instead of $80 to my Premium package price as part of that intro discount. So I'm already giving this guy a lot. I'm not going to give someone 40 photos for $225, and then never be able to get $300 for 30 photos again in the future. Some jobs, no matter how much you want to make the money or expand your portfolio, you gotta value your time, and more importantly your artistic and professional integrity.

Any advice is appreciated.


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heldGaze
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Post has been edited 8 months ago by heldGaze.
Feb 10, 2017 13:05 |  #2

So I basically told this guy, look I was doing a favor by offering a SOOC deal. I don't like that idea because it's crap photos. If you want that I'll do it once, but you're hiring a professional photographer for a reason. I'm not doing mix & match deals. You can take that SOOC special offer I made for you because you're not used to using a pro yet, but really, you're better offer getting a standard package with post-processing. I didn't want to be a dick and send him links to the redfin study or WSJ articles. But, after this, it's take a package or don't.


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ptcanon3ti
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Feb 11, 2017 21:35 |  #3

What did he say?


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Jethr0
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Feb 11, 2017 21:43 |  #4

nod and smile and say sure here's your straight out of camera pics.

But what you really did was batch edit the lot of them with some quick quality boosting edits to make them pop, and it took you 15 mins.

That's what I do.


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heldGaze
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Feb 11, 2017 23:21 |  #5

ptcanon3ti wrote in post #18270928 (external link)
What did he say?


He is discussing it with his business partner, this was at the end of Friday and the property won't be ready for ~3 weeks.

Jethr0 wrote in post #18270933 (external link)
nod and smile and say sure here's your straight out of camera pics.

But what you really did was batch edit the lot of them with some quick quality boosting edits to make them pop, and it took you 15 mins.

That's what I do.


Yeah, I really don't want to put SOOC photos out there with my name on them. It just doesn't represent my abilities, you know? This guy is used to having his friend with a DSLR shoot his properties cheap, run & gun, not a photographer just some kid with a DSLR. They have never used a professional photographer, so it's something new to them.

So, for folks who aren't wanting to buy a standard photo package, you offer them a higher number of photos with less work done to them? You just run batch edits without giving each photo a round of special attention afterwards? Of course I can just run some quick lens corrections in LR and hit Auto for WB, etc. and have all 40 images done 15 minutes. But normally I would take the time to then review each image and see what, if any, extra work they would benefit from. Were the Auto settings accurate? Give them individual work as needed.

The thing is, that if I then offer 40 images for less than I would normally do 25 or 30? Who is going to buy a package with real work done to it? Everyone is going to buy a run & gun. Perhaps that's where real estate photography is these days with smartphones in everyone's pockets. Unless the property is a over 750K-million, people are going to want run & guns.


Cameras: Sony α7R II, Canon 40D, Samsung Galaxy S7
Lenses: Canon 11-24mm f/4 L, 24-70mm f/2.8 L II, 50mm f/1.8 II, Sigma 18-200mm
Telescope: Meade LXD55 SN-6" F=762mm f/5, with a 2x Barlow T-Mount
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TeamSpeed
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Feb 12, 2017 05:42 |  #6

How large are the photos on the listing service? Our area's MLS site only allows images 960 or so on the long edge, and this means it is a waste to even post process.


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heldGaze
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Feb 12, 2017 11:01 |  #7

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18271086 (external link)
How large are the photos on the listing service? Our area's MLS site only allows images 960 or so on the long edge, and this means it is a waste to even post process.


These were 1024. But if you took a photo with a wide angle lens and resized it to even 960, I could tell if you corrected the verticals. That's what, 64 more pixels, and it's blatantly obvious, night and day difference that you don't have to be a photographer to see. I mean I often resize down to 900 to share something over the internet, and you can definitely tell a difference between a picture that has been edited and one that hasn't.


Cameras: Sony α7R II, Canon 40D, Samsung Galaxy S7
Lenses: Canon 11-24mm f/4 L, 24-70mm f/2.8 L II, 50mm f/1.8 II, Sigma 18-200mm
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TeamSpeed
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Feb 12, 2017 13:11 |  #8

That is what we deal with too, as my wife is a realtor.


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Dan ­ Marchant
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Feb 12, 2017 21:51 |  #9

Humans judge quality based on the lowest quality examples rather than the highest. They eat in a restaurant ten times and have good meals and then one bad experience and they never go back because it is a bad restaurant. It's silly and I don't know why it happens but they do.

If you show people ten great photos you are a great photographer. If you show them ten great photos and ten average ones you become an average photographer.

Your (potential) client is looking at trading up from a bad photographer to a good one but they will only do so if you can convince them that there is value in paying for the extra quality they get. If you start watering down the quality with SOOC shots all you do is show them that there is little difference between you and the other guy. Also if you sold the guy on the importance of having distortion corrected/exposure balanced images but are then happy to hand over uncorrected images it you are undermining your original pitch/making a liar of yourself.

Personally it sounds to me as if they are asking for them just because they know they exist (wedding togs seem to get this request quite a lot). They thing they want them when in fact having them would simply do more damage than good. At a minimum it would reduce their perception of the quality of your work and (if they ever released them) would do the same to potential house buyers. If your client wants more images those images need to be processed and they have to pay for that.


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Jethr0
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Feb 13, 2017 04:13 as a reply to Dan Marchant's post |  #10

^ Dan gets it.


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dmward
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Feb 18, 2017 13:58 |  #11

This is the first sentence in your original post;
"I have a prospective client who is used to having his friend "run & gun" with a DSLR kit lens. After showing him the difference between an image SOOC and one having undergone my post to correct lens distortion, adjust colors, contrast, sharpening, etc. he became much more amenable to my pricing structure, very impressed with the work."

Why is there any discussion going on about SOOC images?
He has already agreed that processed images are better.
If he wants to use 40 images then they have to all be processed together for color, light, etc.

Anything else is folly for you and them.
They will think its a good deal for one property, then, as Dan points out, they will think about the fact that some of your images were just like the others they have used in the past so why pay a premium.

Does your workflow make it possible to do some gang processing? If so you might be able to provide a 40 image package for just a bit more than the 30 image package. Still processing all the images.


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heldGaze
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Feb 19, 2017 16:58 |  #12

I definitely dislike the idea of putting SOOC photos out there, and won't be offering that again in the future, lesson learned. These guys decided on my Enhanced Photo Package, which includes 25 photos (basic is 15, premium 40). In the future, for new clients, it's just these are my packages, pick what you want, or don't and find another solution.

I definitely don't like the idea of putting out edited photos and calling them SOOC, the nod & smile approach. I would find that dishonest. I try to be straightforward and clear about the value provided, and doing so led these guys to what I think is the correct decision. Hopefully this shoot goes well, and they become regular clients in the future.

All that's left for this shoot now is just putting all the batteries in chargers (I got 4 in chargers right now), formatting memory cards, ensuring my settings are correct on my cameras and packing my bags for the shoot this week. Oh, and I also need to create a folder and user for the client to access my images after I upload them to my website, unless he requests a DVD or delivery to his Dropbox/Google Drive/whatever.

I definitely do batch (gang?) processing on my images initially. Importing into LR will automatically apply lens corrections for example. White balance can be set for a group of images shot in the same room, etc. So yeah, it's pretty easy to do a lot of the basic stuff, but I still give every image individual attention. Not every image requires much work, but I still pull each and every image into PS for review and any specific adjustments it may need. I grew up on PS (and the GIMP) from decades ago, and still haven't fully adjusted to using LR for my entire workflow. I do all my work on a color calibrated monitor, but I still like to pull a few images from every shoot over to an uncalibrated screen, just to see what it looks like. I only halfway trust this calibrated monitor because it's old and not high-end. New displays are on my to buy list this month, and life will be so much better when they are sitting on my desk and calibrated, and connected to this new PC I'm currently building myself.


Cameras: Sony α7R II, Canon 40D, Samsung Galaxy S7
Lenses: Canon 11-24mm f/4 L, 24-70mm f/2.8 L II, 50mm f/1.8 II, Sigma 18-200mm
Telescope: Meade LXD55 SN-6" F=762mm f/5, with a 2x Barlow T-Mount
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C&C Always Appreciated

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Eiro
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Post has been edited 8 months ago by Eiro.
Feb 20, 2017 21:11 |  #13

Had a client asking SOOC photos I said sure no problem; Unwatermarked SOOC High Rez Jpegs. $1.6k for the batch. Don't even want anyone to know I shot these.

She goes why is it so much more ?

I said because that's what happens when I don't get to put my magic touch on it. :D

She said No,Thanks,that's an outrageous amount. I'll just stick to the package you giving me, it's a reasonable deal.

I said pleasure doing business with you. :D

SOOC costs more baby. You want it no problem. Bring the Franklin friends, they're my favorite.


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Scott ­ Spellman
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Post has been last edited 8 months ago by Scott Spellman. 2 edits done in total.
Feb 22, 2017 00:08 |  #14

Charging by the amount of edited photos delivered is needlessly complicated and creates the SOOC problem. I charge by list price at three levels with all edits and photos included, and it is simpler and keeps my clients happy. Only travel fees, dusk, and drone shots are extra. With basic editing of all the photos, there is never a need or even request for SOOC photos, and the client never waits or has to pick from proofs. I have a set number of photos per room and deliver all photos within 24 hours by email to get the listing up quickly. For my clients, the speed at getting the listing online is a key factor in customer selection, and I make that possible.

I use LR for most editing, with only perspective correction and spot edits in PS to speed up workflow. KISS is essential to happy clients and good business.




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TeamSpeed
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Post has been edited 8 months ago by TeamSpeed.
Feb 22, 2017 10:01 |  #15

Scott Spellman wrote in post #18281216 (external link)
Charging by the amount of edited photos delivered is needlessly complicated and creates the SOOC problem. I charge by list price at three levels with all edits and photos included, and it is simpler and keeps my clients happy. Only travel fees, dusk, and drone shots are extra. With basic editing of all the photos, there is never a need or even request for SOOC photos, and the client never waits or has to pick from proofs. I have a set number of photos per room and deliver all photos within 24 hours by email to get the listing up quickly. For my clients, the speed at getting the listing online is a key factor in customer selection, and I make that possible.

I use LR for most editing, with only perspective correction and spot edits in PS to speed up workflow. KISS is essential to happy clients and good business.

I like that kind of model, would you be willing to share the basics of those via PM, or as a post here? As I get my drone license, I can now offer similar things here in my county to the real estate market, as I already will have clients from the brokerage my wife is under.


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