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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Wildlife Talk
Thread started 30 Mar 2017 (Thursday) 08:26
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After the wolves returned to Yellowstone...

 
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Intheswamp
Goldmember
Joined Sep 2013
South Alabama
Mar 30, 2017 08:26 |  #1

This has probably already been posted to the forum...sorry if I'm being redundant here...but if I am, hopefully it's worth posting again. It's regarding how the land and it's inhabitants have responded to the reintroduction back in 1995 of wolves to the park. Whether this is the truth or not, or whether there is a lot of embellishment to it...most of it makes sense to me (but, ya know...I'm no rocket scientist!). :)

https://youtu.be/ysa5O​BhXz-Q (external link)

Best wishes,
Ed


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SleepingMoose
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Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Post has been edited 6 months ago by SleepingMoose.
May 19, 2017 18:39 |  #2

Too much silence here, this is an important topic :-)

It is true, there are a lot of indirect relations involved but it all starts with the introduction of the Wolves.

We have a similar problem here in the Netherlands, where our most famous reserve the Oostvaardersplassen has become a ecological disaster.

Thousands of herbivores have created a barren landscape, because there are no natural predators for deer, wild horse and Aurochs (bred back, not really succeeded). Foxes are abundant and kill the last remaining birds nesting on the ground. Although the foresters kill hundreds/thousands of animals every year the problem is not solved.

The best solution is to introduce Wolves. Not that they eat that many animals (as said in the video) but the Ecology of Fear will do the work. Large herbivores avoid places with Wolves and stay away from a den for at least 1-2 miles. Wolves don't hunt Foxes but tolerating them is something else. The number of Foxes will go down after the introduction of Wolves.

It is an amazing story. Rare plants coming back with the Wolves. In ancient days people would believe that Wolves plant seeds at night.




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Intheswamp
THREAD ­ STARTER
Goldmember
Joined Sep 2013
South Alabama
May 19, 2017 22:31 |  #3

I thought the video made good sense...I'm glad to see the ecosystem recovering there. It's interesting that yours is the first comment regarding it.

Best regards,
Ed


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
That's my line!
Left Handed Brisket's Avatar
Joined Jun 2011
The Uwharrie Mts, NC
May 19, 2017 22:42 |  #4

It is important, but I bet most who are concerned, and are oldish, like me, have heard the story.

My even older than me uncle thought this was the biggest load of crap, liberal agenda, pain in the ass ever. I mean, it's our god given right to walk out into any opening and shoot an animal dead, right? What kind of stupid idea is it that restores balance without the input of humans?

Gah!!!

Didn't watch the video. Assuming it is the river bank thing where predators keep prey looking out for said predators rather than just slothing around.

Speaking of slothing around, I have some humaning to do.


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Silver-Halide
Senior Member
Joined Jan 2015
May 21, 2017 01:15 |  #5

SleepingMoose wrote in post #18358760 (external link)
Too much silence here, this is an important topic :-)

It is true, there are a lot of indirect relations involved but it all starts with the introduction of the Wolves.

We have a similar problem here in the Netherlands, where our most famous reserve the Oostvaardersplassen has become a ecological disaster.

Thousands of herbivores have created a barren landscape, because there are no natural predators for deer, wild horse and Aurochs (bred back, not really succeeded). Foxes are abundant and kill the last remaining birds nesting on the ground. Although the foresters kill hundreds/thousands of animals every year the problem is not solved.

The best solution is to introduce Wolves. Not that they eat that many animals (as said in the video) but the Ecology of Fear will do the work. Large herbivores avoid places with Wolves and stay away from a den for at least 1-2 miles. Wolves don't hunt Foxes but tolerating them is something else. The number of Foxes will go down after the introduction of Wolves.

It is an amazing story. Rare plants coming back with the Wolves. In ancient days people would believe that Wolves plant seeds at night.

I'm going to venture a guess that most visitors come to Yellowstone not for flowers but moreso for the once-impressive elk herds that the wolves have been decimating for the last 20 years.

I can't speak to the Netherlands but deer otherwise face plenty of predators here in the western United States: mountain lions, black bears, grizzly bears, even coyotes, bobcats and wolverines can take down the fawns. Then there's the half a million or so that meet their fate with a vehicle collision ever year (whereby a few hundred humans are killed in the crash as well).

Speaking of ecological disaster I'm wondering why the video made no mention of mange that the wolves are spreading around the greater Yellowstone ecosystem. Neither did they mention that the non-native Canadian Grey Wolf was introduced to an ecosystem historically populated by the Timber Wolf. There's even rumor that the entire reintroduction effort was funded with money that may have been embezzled in violation of U.S. federal law. :rolleyes:


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
That's my line!
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Joined Jun 2011
The Uwharrie Mts, NC
Post has been last edited 6 months ago by Left Handed Brisket. 2 edits done in total.
May 21, 2017 07:16 as a reply to Silver-Halide's post |  #6

embezzled funds? any further information about that theory?


lots of work being done monitoring this ecosystem and the "wolf decimated" elk population.
http://discovermagazin​e.com/2014/may/16-elk-vanishing-act (external link)

Middleton’s observations and GPS data showed that elk rarely encountered wolves. And when they did, the elk didn’t run away or even stop chewing unless the wolves came within about half a mile. Most importantly, there was no correlation between the rate of wolf encounters and the decline of either elk pregnancy rates or their levels of body fat, which are crucial for surviving the cold winter.

Middleton wasn’t ready to let the wolves off the hook. Maybe instead of scaring mothers, he thought, the wolves were eating calves.
...
followed 151 elk calves in Yellowstone for three years. Almost 70 percent of the calves died before their first birthdays, and Barber-Meyer’s team determined that wolves killed only 15 percent of them — not nearly enough to explain Middleton’s missing calves.

If it’s not the wolves driving elk calf declines, Middleton thought, “What the hell is doing it?”

Death by wolf, Barber-Meyer found, was dwarfed by the 60 percent of these tagged calves killed by bears (more than half of them by grizzlies). That was three times as much bear predation as was found two decades earlier. Realizing the role of bears revealed a much bigger and messier picture than Middleton had anticipated.

After spending five years trying to find the one thing that could explain the declining elk populations, Middleton has concluded that there isn’t one — there are many: Trout fishermen, bears, wolves, fish, climate change and factors yet unfound collectively shoulder the weight of that loss. “Changes in the system were perceived as a consequence of wolves,” he explains, but these reintroduced predators actually have a relatively small impact — one that is far outsized by the hoopla surrounding them. The elk population in Yellowstone is at the mercy of a much larger, human-altered ecosystem.


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Silver-Halide
Senior Member
Joined Jan 2015
May 21, 2017 07:50 |  #7

http://fourwinds10.com ...ent/news.php?q=1295​973697 (external link)


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
That's my line!
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Joined Jun 2011
The Uwharrie Mts, NC
May 21, 2017 08:54 |  #8

thanks.

found this quote attributed to the author of that article.

“Fish and Wildlife doesn’t want to manage the land or the wildlife,” said Beers. “Once they started hiring women and minorities, the service went from managing the land and wildlife to saving all the animals and habitats.”


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sandwedge
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Joined Aug 2011
Atlanta, GA
Post has been edited 6 months ago by sandwedge.
May 21, 2017 22:31 |  #9


You've got an interesting view of the wolf "disaster". My view is a quite different, but I'm not an expert on the subject. However, I don't see it as a disaster at all ("disaster" being quoted from the article you linked).

Interesting theory that money was illegally taken from taxes on hunting sales. If that's true, it was wrong.

I was also interested by the website you linked in general. I can't say that I understand most of what it talks about in the site's mission statement:

Our objectives are:
To reveal the Darkside's secret Plan 2000 for total world control by our present evil world leaders.
To reveal to the world's people that Creator God Aton of Light also has a Plan 2000. God Aton and His Forces of Light will not do it for us but will work with us, as we responsibly confront evil in our day and change the "ending of the play."
To reveal the evil world leaders' cover-up of off-world humans (our ancestors), who are here in starships in Earth's atmosphere at this time, and who have come with good intent to help us prevent the evil Plan 2000 from being accomplished, and to help us establish the New Age of Enlightenment.
To reveal the Truth presently being given to our civilization by the Realms of Light:
a. How to change the age-old prophecies, e.g. how to change the ending of this civilization without the prophesied final destruction occurring.
b. How to prepare for our future survival, if necessary, against coming Earth changes.
c. How to heal ourselves from any disease or ailment by within in combination with those things provided by Creator God for our healing.
d. How to have total and permanent protection for ourselves and our families against all darkside energies, entities and technology.
e. How to change what is and create our way, through the power of our God-Spirit within. This includes bringing balance and harmony again to our "Mother Earth and ushering in the New Age of Peace and Enlightenment.
f. How to assist our Planet Earth in her transition into fifth dimension by 2012.
g. How to make our own transition into fifth dimension and the Age of Enlightenment without experiencing physical death and returning to another 3D lifestream.
To assist Truthseekers, Lightworkers, and Truthbringers alike in their search for and presentation of Truth.
To spread the Truth from Creator God Aton of Light to the "Four Corners of the Planet Earth" via the "Fourwinds" website (http://www.fourwinds10​.com (external link)) and the Phoenix Archives website (http://www.phoenixarch​ives.com (external link)).
The original foundation of Truth upon which Fourwinds rests is that which has been presented by Creator God Aton of Light and the Ascended Masters in the 241 volumes of The Phoenix Journals. These Journals are also known as the "Holy Books of the Lighted Realms."


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Silver-Halide
Senior Member
Joined Jan 2015
May 21, 2017 23:49 |  #10

I'm not a frequenter of the website I linked--it was a search result. Here is the same story covered by a few other sources
https://montanapioneer​.com ...ced-says-whistleblower-2/ (external link)
http://ravallirepublic​.com ...df-b3b8-001cc4c03286.html (external link)


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Silver-Halide
Senior Member
Joined Jan 2015
May 21, 2017 23:52 |  #11

If you're honest about evaluating adjenda and credibility, then here's another perspective on the non-native predators.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=yxaYMrwG3FI (external link)


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sandwedge
Senior Member
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Joined Aug 2011
Atlanta, GA
May 22, 2017 15:11 |  #12

I definitely am interested in perspective. I watched the video. It paints a pretty grim picture of the future of hunting, from 2011. Now, like I said before, I'm no expert on the subject, so I really can't present a lot of facts.

I did google "Montana Elk Herd Numbers" and found this from 2016, "Montana hunters killed record number of elk in 2015":

http://billingsgazette​.com ...ed-90a0-5149d38a4cd9.html (external link)

I look forward to discussing this topic further and learning more about your perspective. However, it will have to wait about a month. I leave in the morning to drive 2,000 miles to Yellowstone, to spend my hard earned money photographing all types of animals, including elk and wolves. We can pick this back up when I get home in late June.


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
That's my line!
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Joined Jun 2011
The Uwharrie Mts, NC
Post has been edited 6 months ago by Left Handed Brisket.
May 22, 2017 15:27 |  #13

One of the other unique items of information conveyed in the three years of elk harvest survey results is that the region where more elk are consistently taken is Region 3 in southwestern Montana. This seems a bit odd considering that Region 3 surrounds the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, an area rich with predators like wolves, grizzly bears and mountain lions.

This year’s surveys estimate the elk population in Montana at more than 163,000. That’s more elk than the entire population of Billings, the state’s largest city, which is estimated at 109,000. That compares to an estimated elk population of 136,000 in 2008, or roughly a 20 percent increase in eight years.

fake news, sad!


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Silver-Halide
Senior Member
Joined Jan 2015
Post has been edited 6 months ago by Silver-Halide.
May 22, 2017 16:27 |  #14

sandwedge wrote in post #18360615 (external link)
I definitely am interested in perspective. I watched the video. It paints a pretty grim picture of the future of hunting, from 2011. Now, like I said before, I'm no expert on the subject, so I really can't present a lot of facts.

I did google "Montana Elk Herd Numbers" and found this from 2016, "Montana hunters killed record number of elk in 2015":

http://billingsgazette​.com ...ed-90a0-5149d38a4cd9.html (external link)

I look forward to discussing this topic further and learning more about your perspective. However, it will have to wait about a month. I leave in the morning to drive 2,000 miles to Yellowstone, to spend my hard earned money photographing all types of animals, including elk and wolves. We can pick this back up when I get home in late June.

Well I appreciate your open mindedness, which is sorely lacking on both 'sides' in such debates. I don't know as much about the situation in Montana but I know that in 2012, the year after that video was made, Wyoming elk hunters had their most successful year ever (57,000 elk hunters were 46% successful, according to the stateG&F dept) (external link), but the devil is often in the details.

Have a fun, safe trip, and please let us know whether you had more fun photographing flowers or ungulates in America's national park. :-)


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sandwedge
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Atlanta, GA
May 22, 2017 16:59 |  #15

Silver-Halide wrote in post #18360661 (external link)
Well I appreciate your open mindedness, which is sorely lacking on both 'sides' in such debates. I don't know as much about the situation in Montana but I know that in 2012, the year after that video was made, Wyoming elk hunters had their most successful year ever (57,000 elk hunters were 46% successful, according to the stateG&F dept) (external link), but the devil is often in the details.

Have a fun, safe trip, and please let us know whether you had more fun photographing flowers or ungulates in America's national park. :-)

Thanks, I'm sure it will be a great trip. I enjoy photographing just about anything. That's what's so amazing about Yellowstone - landscapes, wildlife, nightscapes, geysures, etc... there's so much to shoot.

I'll be honest with you, though. I'd trade all my elk photographs for one really good wolf shot.


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