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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk
Thread started 05 Apr 2017 (Wednesday) 15:26
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Size of gear, overrated?

 
asr10user
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Apr 05, 2017 15:26 |  #1

My main rig is my Canon 6D with few lenses. I am pretty happy with my system, but with all this talk about small systems being equal quality, I slowly starting playing with different systems to get a feel of how good they are compared to their small size. I kept my Canon, but got secondary systems to play with (Sony A6000, Fuji XE2, Sony Rx100). After a while, I realized my Canon was just fine and the size didn't actually bother me like I thought it would.

Fast forward to my new interest in videos and quad/aerial shooting. The hot quad at the moment is the DJI Mavic, due to its tiny size and full sized features. Everyone seems to want this tiny quad, so last years models are going for low prices. I ended up getting a Phantom 3 Pro at a very good deal direct from DJI. Granted, I never felt the Phantom in person, but did play with the Mavic. The Mavic is very impressive and its very small, so I was expecting the Phantom to be this huge thing...... but I was totally wrong. The Phantom is bigger, but its not THAT big. Its comparable to the current mirrorless vs dslr debate. Sure mirrorless is smaller, but dslr is not that much bigger.

I almost fell for the size hype again... Anyone else feel similar?


6D, 50mm Art
G7, 14-42mm, 25mm 1.7, 42.5mm 1.7

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Tom ­ Reichner
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Apr 05, 2017 16:42 |  #2

Having a small size is not really important to me. I regularly use lenses that are 12 pounds and a foot and a half long, so having a small, light body isn't going to help.

In fact, if a body is light it doesn't balance well with my lenses and it becomes awkward to use my gear.

And if my bodies are light they don't fit my hands well. I want my gear to fill my hands so that my hand and thumb muscles con't get cramped up. My 1D series bodies have fit my hands perfectly over the years. I have used smaller bodies, but they are a little more awkward to use unless I put a battery grip on them.

I am not really interested in having a camera and lens combo that will fit in my pocket - I just don't see how that would be any advantage to me.

I think that the "small and light" hype comes from hobbyists who want to have a camera with them even when they are doing things that are not photography-based.

For instance, say someone is a hiker and they want to have a good camera with them on their lengthy backcountry hikes so that they can take pictures of where they've been - small and light is advantageous for them.

For me, the only reason I would ever go hiking is for the photo opportunities - it's all about the photography, not the hiking. So if the only reason for me to ever be on a hiking trail is for the photography, then small and light doesn't really matter, because the photography is what it is all about anyway.

Ditto for vacations - the only vacations I have any interest in ever taking are photography trips. So of course I don't mind taking a lot of gear with me because the only purpose for the vacation is photography.

I hope I have written these thoughts out in a way that makes sense, and that explains why "small and light" means very little to me, but may mean a lot to others.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "peace of mind", NOT "piece of mind".

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chauncey
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Apr 05, 2017 18:21 |  #3

There was a time that size was important to me.


The things you do for yourself die with you, the things you do for others live forever.
A man's worth should be judged, not when he basks in the sun, but how he faces the storm.

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Wilt
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Post has been edited 6 months ago by Wilt.
Apr 05, 2017 18:48 |  #4

For a given sensor size, a particular FL lens is needed for to attain a certain 'reach'. The fact that the lens is mounted on a thinner body vs. a thicker body, a 500mm lens is a 500mm lens when the sensor is 24x36mm...the barrels might be a bit different, but it nevertheless is a 500mm FL...you can only make the lens substantially smaller and light by shortening the FL, like using 1/2 the FL for a sensor 1/2 the linear dimension.


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DreDaze
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Apr 05, 2017 19:37 |  #5

i don't really care about the size of my gear, unless i'm backpacking...interest​ing that you are talking drones though...i had been thinking of getting the phantom 3...then saw my buddy's mavic...i think the size difference there is just how portable it is when folded in...it's not the operating size...i gotta say, after seeing that thing in action, i started to lean towards spending more for it...my issue with the drone is wherever i would want to use a drone, i feel like you can't use a drone


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Bassat
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Apr 05, 2017 19:38 |  #6

When I shoot from the sidelines of HS athletic event with bridge camera, people are courteous and try to stay out of my way. With a XXD and a 18-135, they give me a bit more leeway. When I shoot with a 1Dn and a big white, they tell each other to get out of my way. Apparently, size matters to some folks.


Tom

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Scottboarding
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Apr 05, 2017 23:47 |  #7

I have two digital cameras: Canon 7D and a Ricoh GRii. The Ricoh goes with me absolutely everywhere because it fits in my pocket. If you're looking for a smaller camera, go actually small, not "smallest full frame DSLR". The 7D isn't exactly a small or light camera, but in my view all DSLR's are the same. Non of them fit in my pocket, they're all going to be relatively big no matter if it's a world record or not. If I want a light camera, I bring the Ricoh; no DSLR will every compete with that size. If I'm going to carry a DSLR, I'll carry the one that will do the job best no matter the size.


Olympus E-M1 - Mitakon 25mm f0.95 - Olympus 17mm f1.8
Nikon FM2n - Nikon Ai-s 28mm f2.8 - Nikon Ai 50mm f1.4
Ricoh GRii

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Lumens
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Apr 06, 2017 07:36 |  #8

I tried a Fuji XT-1 for its size, but now that I have a Fuji 100-400 mm lens and picked up an XT-2 with the Vertical Battery grip I'm back up to the size of a DSLR! What I've learned is the 6D still sits on the shelf, I have pulled it out a few times but there is something about the Fuji I just enjoy a great deal better. I can't pinpoint it but there is just something I like better about it.

I suppose if something just feels better to you that's what you should use.


FUJI XT1 -> XF 10-24, XF 18-55, XF 55-200, XF 27mm pancake
6D -> Canon 28mm f2.8 IS, Canon 50mm f1.4, Canon 85mm f1.8, Canon 100mm f2.8 Macro IS
Canon 24-105 f4L, Canon EF 70-200 f4L IS USM, Canon EF 100-400L IS
7D -> Canon EF-S 15-85

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airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
Joined May 2007
Oak Park, Illinois
Apr 06, 2017 08:55 |  #9

Overrated? I shoot with Leica M first because it fits the way I see and work and size is secondary but still important for what i shoot. For my personal work I do a lot of fast paced street work so size and speed of operation is very relevant. My MM doesn't even have a logo on it.

5DII and 35L/Leica MM and 35 1.4 Summilux FLE ASPH.

IMAGE: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/airfrogusmc/Cameras/IMG_5553.jpg

IMAGE: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/airfrogusmc/Cameras/IMG_5389.jpg
And it's a lot smaller than a 1Ds MkIII.



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Wilt
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Post has been last edited 6 months ago by Wilt. 4 edits done in total.
Apr 06, 2017 09:24 |  #10

Interesting little comparison here in this first link...I know which I would prefer to carry if merely walking about on holiday...

https://petapixel.com ...look-next-to-one-another/ (external link)

but for actively covering some event, size does not matter so much to me (apart from never wanting to deal with a 1D* all day long). The so-called size advantage for mirrorless does not seem to materialize when you mount same FL lens on same-size sensor mirrorless and dSLR, as can be seen here...


https://petapixel.com ...mirrorless-fatal-mistake/ (external link)

Nonetheless it is unfortunate that with motors for this that and the other thing, AF mechanisms, etc. digital cameras are so notoriously larger than what was popular for Everyman to carry in the 'golden age' of SLRs, with the Olympus OM, Canon AE-1, Pentax M*, etc.

IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/Equipment/OMv20Dv2.jpg

To be fair, there were conventional sized SLR bodies before the compact body SLR trend was started by Olympus.
Compact sized SLR, conventional sized SLR, dSLR (left to right)...
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/Equipment/Bodysize-2-8493_zps9e0761c7.jpg
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/Equipment/Bodysize-1-8491_zpsdad1bce9.jpg

And then the lenses, 135mm 135mm 100mm (left to right)...
IMAGE: http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/wiltonw/Equipment/Bodysize-3-8494_zps8a5e5e05.jpg

I have long dreamed of fitting a digital sensor back on the Olympus OM body which has the removeable film back.

I do not think the 'long-lens-on-small-body' argument (the mirrorless body FF vs. dSLR) issue is a true argument, given that one should support the combination
at the center of mass -- the lens -- with the left hand, while the right hand steadies it all and presses the shutter. You do not, after all, hold the camera like a vice in both hands leaving the lens dangling unsupported in front.

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airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
Joined May 2007
Oak Park, Illinois
Apr 06, 2017 09:54 |  #11

I do shoot a lot of events and I have absolutely no trouble covering them properly with my digital Leica Ms.




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Tom ­ Reichner
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Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
Post has been edited 6 months ago by Tom Reichner.
Apr 06, 2017 10:16 |  #12

.
I think this is so much a personal choice issue that varies greatly from one individual to another. The size comparisons that Allen and Wilt posted are cases in point:

airfrogusmc wrote in post #18320980 (external link)
5DII and 35L/Leica MM and 35 1.4 Summilux FLE ASPH.
QUOTED IMAGE

Wilt wrote in post #18321016 (external link)
QUOTED IMAGE


When I see those smaller bodies, I cringe at the thought of having to use something like that. In order for me to hold and use one of those small cameras, my fingers have to curl around more than they do when I hold and use a big DSLR. Wen my fingers have to form a tighter curl (a curl with a smaller radius), they feel awkward and cramped up, and it is very uncomfortable and awkward to keep them on the buttons that they need to be on.

Conversely, when I use a plus-sized DSLR, my fingers don't have to curl very tightly at all. They can stay more straight than they do when holding a small camera. Being able to hold my fingers in a 'more straight' position means that they maintain their dexterity, and I can move them with coordination, speed, and accuracy.

So, when my photography calls for me to react fluidly and quickly, the larger bodies are a huge advantage, simply because they are so comfortable to use. The ergonomics just work.

I've never taken a picture with a camera when it was in my pocket. Cameras are best used when held in the hands. So I want a camera that best fits my hand, not one that best fits my pocket.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "peace of mind", NOT "piece of mind".

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kf095
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Canada, Ontario, Milton
Post has been edited 6 months ago by kf095.
Apr 06, 2017 10:18 |  #13

In my earlier forties size was irrelevant. I would mule all day two DLSR rigs on me with two big zooms attached. Coming closer to fifty I started to dislike it, because I have to be close to small child and bumping full sized camera rig to children heads is not pleasing experience.
Right before turning fifty I sold my recently updated FF DSLR, sold 50L lens, gave to our first daughter fast zoom with Canon TTL flash (she takes pictures for money with 5D MKII and flash) and kept old and trusty 500D with 24mm pancake on it.

I quit from taking FF DSLR outdoors few years ago. Too large for dog leash in one hand and kid hand in another hand. Later FF DSLR rig became silly to even kept it at home for daily photography. It was so bulky and taking space. I would take it to party... wearing it was nothing but inconvenience and finding place to leave it somewhere was problematic.
And FF DSLR with fast zoom became heavy to me at the age of fifty. Now even holding it for fifteen minutes is not pleasing at all.

Also, I quit from FF DSLR and large zoom on it (17-40 L) long time ago for street photography. Switched to 500D with Olympus.Zuiko MF pancake. It was fun until I realized what I like it in BW and what film is better for BW street photography to me. My first street film camera was Olympus XA, smallest RF camera made. It was major breakthrough for me in the street photography, small photo camera and bw film. I became more creative.
Later on I switched to normal sized Bessa R and after year or so as many others I became to conclusion what best ergonomics, size and weight are on Leica side.
Just like it is expanded in the comment right above. Leica has all controls and Leica lenses have controls which allows fingers to fiddle for hours and without fatigue.

Here is my current RF herd:

IMAGE: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/gallery/57736/U57736I1490672569.SEQ.0.jpg

Any camera on this picture has weight which is close to Canon 6D weight. But prime lenses are smaller and 135 or digital rangefinder camera body has ergonomics and shape which is working best for me. With DSLR on me it is kind of bouncy, with RF it is somehow on me.

For travel photography for sometime now I'm using only one camera, it is on the left and only one lens (it is on the camera). Leica Canada M4-2 and Leica Germany Summarit-M 35 2.5.
It feels compact, I could wear it all day. No worries about battery charging overnight. And I'm getting prints I want from it. If I need digital snapshot, the Iphone is now sufficient most of the time.

If I want better digital pictures for travel, I have Panasonic Lumix P&S with great Leica zoom lens on it.


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In 2016 I went on trip where I was very limited with carry-on space. And M4-2 with little Lumix and iPhone where sufficient. Ten rolls of film are not taking much space, either.

The only serious limitations I have in IQ with this small P&S and digital Leica cameras is for low light. These days I prefer f5.6 and f8 to have everyone in focus and with these apertures it is often not enough light. So, I using very small and light Leica TTL flash. Or 500D build-in flash. I almost purchased high ISO king 6D earlier this year, but went for low ISO only M8 instead. Because 6D and pancake on it is still too bulky for me to use it without inconvenience. I don't mind to wait for Canon to make FF DLSR which will be similar to their Rebels body. I would prefer it to be similar to 135 format Rebel 300 which we still have at home. Small, light and nice SLR.

Unfortunately tiny and cute mirrorless gizmos with TV screen instead of normal optical viewfinder is not my cap of tea. I don't mind iPhone and classic digital P&S, it is fun, but for more serious photography I still trust my eye and optical viewfinder.

Old Site (external link). M-E and ME blog (external link). Film Flickr (external link). my DigitaL and AnaLog Gear.

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airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
Joined May 2007
Oak Park, Illinois
Post has been last edited 6 months ago by airfrogusmc. 4 edits done in total.
Apr 06, 2017 10:25 |  #14

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18321061 (external link)
I think this is so much a personal choice issue that varies greatly from one individual to another. The size comparisons that Allen and Wilt posted are a case in point.

When I see those smaller bodies, I cringe at the thought of having to use something like that. In order for me to hold and use one of those small cameras, my fingers have to curl around more than they do when I hold and use a big DSLR. Wen my fingers have to form a tighter curl (a curl with a smaller radius), they feel awkward and cramped up, and it is very uncomfortable and awkward to keep them on the buttons that they need to be on.

Conversely, when I use a plus-sized DSLR, my fingers don't have to curl very tightly at all. They can stay more straight than they do when holding a small camera. Being able to hold my fingers in a 'more straight' position means that they maintain their dexterity, and I can move them with coordination, speed, and accuracy.

So, when my photography calls for me to react fluidly and quickly, the larger bodies are a huge advantage, simply because they are so comfortable to use. The ergonomics just work.

I've never taken a picture with a camera when it was in my pocket. Cameras are best used when held in the hands. So I want a camera that best fits my hand, not one that best fits my pocket.

.


Tom,
I have never shot with a more comfortable camera to shoot with than a Leica M. But if you need reach and long lenses then a DSLR is the right tool but for the street and candid events and all of what I do professionally then the tool I use is far better for me and the way I work than the big DSLRs I use to have. As far as fluidity and speed just see my photographs that are in the moment. Using DoF scales and pre setting exposure means all you do is frame and shoot. There is no auto focus in the world faster than being pre focused and no auto exposure more accurate than decades of experience.
As far as fitting in my hands and I'm a big guy and there is not a camera that fits better, is more comfortably for me and can just get out of the way and let me create than my Ms.

If I needed the reach I would have certainly kept it. BTW the 200 2L is the only Canon gear I got a good return on when I sold it.

IMAGE: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/airfrogusmc/Cameras/IMG_6263_1_zps67a84fc8.jpg

Current line up almost. The only diff is I now have a 75 Summarit 2.5 instead of the 90 Cron and I also have a 24mm 2.8 Elmarit Asph.
[
IMAGE: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/airfrogusmc/Cameras/IMG_1934_zpsryrhpb3v.jpg

24 Elmarit on the left
IMAGE: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/airfrogusmc/Cameras/L1012132_zpss51hdple.jpg



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asr10user
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Apr 06, 2017 10:36 as a reply to DreDaze's post |  #15

I also really thought about saving for the Mavic. But my logic is this.... I am not sure if drones are for me and I also didnt feel comfortable buying something at retail or something just released. Getting the Phantom gives me time to see if a drone is really for me and if it is, I should be able to sell it at a small loss and hopefully the Mavic is then going for a better price. DJI is pumping new models out like GoPro, so I would give it only a year. Chances are everything will be in the Mavic body soon.

Off topic, but I flew the P3P for the first time yesterday and my buddy brought his Mavic. The P3P is clearly faster and the joy of flying (with no camera) is a big surprise to me, its awesome. I spent 30 min just flying in a figure 8 to learn the handling and not paying attention to the camera and it was very exciting.


6D, 50mm Art
G7, 14-42mm, 25mm 1.7, 42.5mm 1.7

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