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FORUMS Other Digital Cameras Fuji Digital Cameras
Thread started 06 Apr 2017 (Thursday) 23:09
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Ergonomics of X-t2 w/ EF-X500

 
AlanU
Cream of the Crop
Joined Feb 2008
Vancouver, BC
Apr 06, 2017 23:09 |  #1

Finally stopped procrastinating about not having a Fuji Flash. After testing the flash I'll have to say the "Made in China" flash actually seems to be decent. I think I'll also be buying a Metz M400 as another backup HSS flash. With my connection I got the flash substantially cheaper than US prices!! :)

Seems majority of the people on this forum seldom use flash. I still cannot believe how this is even possible as this does not maximize the use of the "fuji" tool. Recently I was out to dinner pushing the limits with my 16mm prime. Bumped into a friend in the restaurant and he asked if I could take a group shot photo. I'll have to admit ISO 6400 in low light was absolutely an EPIC fail. I've never been so ill equipped in my life as I usually have a flash in a thinktank pouch when I go out. Honestly my wife's iphone 7 with flash looked better than a $3000+ Fuji combo with no flash!!! Hence the imperative purchase of a fuji flash with bouncing capabilities.

I will say I actually dislike the feel of having this flash on my X-T2. The imbalance of a non gripped X-t2 does not feel good at all. I'll deal with this uneven weight distribution as the tiny X-T2 grip is barely adequate....no choice in this camera grip design.

The dial on the flash is an absolute dream to adjust FEC!!! The flash is also silly easy to use. A big negative I found was the Fuji's LED focus assist. This has got to be one of the biggest jokes I've ever experienced as it emits a harsh bright light in the subjects eyes before shutter actuation. Canon's red focus assist light truly assist focus incredibly well even in complete darkness. So far with my brief testing my 10-24mm lens with LED assist denied my AF (red indicator stating no AF) on occasion when aiming at low contrast dark objects. This is now an indication that I will not ever use my Fuji gear for critical events in low light. I love using the versatility of UWA lens on a dance floor with flash.

With flash photography I'll have to say the colour rendition is beautiful!! I'll add more to this thread as I put more time on this flash. I also need to incorporate my Cactus triggers with RF60 flash units.

I'm currently having a roller coaster of happiness and sadness in fuji's flagship EF-X500 flash unit. I think it'll suite my needs majority of the time.


5Dmkiv |5Dmkiii | 80D | 24LmkII | 35mm f/2 IS | 85 mkII L | 100L | EF-S 10-22 | 16-35L mkII | 24-70 f/2.8L mkii| 70-200 f/2.8 ISL mkII| 600EX-RT x2 | 580 EX II x2 | Einstein's
Fuji X-T2 w/battery booster | 16mm f/1.4 | 56 f/1.2 | 10-24 f/4.0 | 55-200 | EF-X500

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EverydayGetaway
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Post has been last edited 8 months ago by EverydayGetaway. 5 edits done in total.
Apr 08, 2017 01:31 |  #2

AlanU wrote in post #18321668 (external link)
I've never been so ill equipped in my life as I usually have a flash in a thinktank pouch when I go out. Honestly my wife's iphone 7 with flash looked better than a $3000+ Fuji combo with no flash!!! Hence the imperative purchase of a fuji flash with bouncing capabilities.

I'm sorry, but I flat out don't believe you... pics or it didn't happen!  :p

Also, there are several Fuji's with built in bounceable flash, here's an example from my old X-E2, I just used my finger to bounce the flash up the ceiling

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/2/1485/26243434280_6f776db4e7_b.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/FZ3s​GQ] (external link)DSCF6926-Edit-2.jpg (external link) by Lucas (external link), on Flickr

I've got plenty more examples of this if you'd like ;) It's actually the one feature I wish my X-Pro2 had... I would love to have my old Johnny 5 flash back!

The LED assist light is a limit of mirrorless cameras, not specific to Fuji... they didn't do it randomly, they did it because IR doesn't work with on sensor AF.

As for size concerns, why not pick up the smaller EF-20 flash for casual outings?

Personally, I wish they'd just put a wireless transmitter in the body and give us an updated EF-X20 with wireless ability... SOLD.

EDIT; Also, I suspect the reason you don't see many Fuji users using flash frequently is because a large part of the appeal of the Fuji system is the subtle, less obtrusive nature of shooting with a system like Fuji. You go much more un-noticed when shooting a small Fuji with a prime, a flash sort of defeats that advantage.

Personally, my favorite shots are the ones where the subject doesn't even know they're being photographed, or don't know until the shot is fired and that's hard to pull off when they keep seeing a flash go off every so often.

Fuji X-Pro2 // Fuji X-T1 // Fuji X-100T // XF 18mm f2 // XF 35mm f1.4 // XF 60mm f2.4 // Rokinon 12mm f2 // Rokinon 21mm f1.4 // XF 18-55mm f/2.8-4 // XF 55-200mm f3.5-4.8 // Rokinon 85mm f1.4 // Zhonghi Lensturbo ii // Various adapted MF lenses
flickr (external link) // Instagram (external link)

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AlanU
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Joined Feb 2008
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Apr 08, 2017 02:43 |  #3

EverydayGetaway wrote in post #18322462 (external link)
I'm sorry, but I flat out don't believe you... pics or it didn't happen!  :p

Also, there are several Fuji's with built in bounceable flash, here's an example from my old X-E2, I just used my finger to bounce the flash up the ceiling
QUOTED IMAGE
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/FZ3s​GQ] (external link)DSCF6926-Edit-2.jpg (external link) by Lucas (external link), on Flickr

I've got plenty more examples of this if you'd like ;) It's actually the one feature I wish my X-Pro2 had... I would love to have my old Johnny 5 flash back!

The LED assist light is a limit of mirrorless cameras, not specific to Fuji... they didn't do it randomly, they did it because IR doesn't work with on sensor AF.

As for size concerns, why not pick up the smaller EF-20 flash for casual outings?

Personally, I wish they'd just put a wireless transmitter in the body and give us an updated EF-X20 with wireless ability... SOLD.

EDIT; Also, I suspect the reason you don't see many Fuji users using flash frequently is because a large part of the appeal of the Fuji system is the subtle, less obtrusive nature of shooting with a system like Fuji. You go much more un-noticed when shooting a small Fuji with a prime, a flash sort of defeats that advantage.

Personally, my favorite shots are the ones where the subject doesn't even know they're being photographed, or don't know until the shot is fired and that's hard to pull off when they keep seeing a flash go off every so often.

I definitely need a flash that can manipulate light by bouncing. Direct flash even for casual shots is not something I can use.

As a photographer I choose the best possible solutions for light. I think a very high percentage of people lack knowledge in mastering the techniques of bouncing flash. I urge people to be adventurous in seeking max IQ by experimenting and learning new skills. I'd take a flash over making excuses wishing my photos looked better.

My story of taking photos of an indoor group shot is true. I was quite taken back that the iphone 7 plus did a great job using it's tiny flash. The small iphone sensor has much more dof that all of the people in the group shot was relatively in focus. The fuji struggled at iso 6400 using f/1.4. Yes I used the iphone 7 plus first and felt it was good enough. The fuji of course had shallow dof issues with soft blurry people in the group shot. Stopping down the aperture would have furthered the ugly image quality on my fuji. If I had my EF-X500 I would have created pro photos effortlessly.

I'll use a prime when I feel I can get away with it using available light. I'll take the "flash look" for events as the IQ will still be better than a noisy soft motion blur image. I'm a natural light shooter as well as flash. I use long prime/zooms for stealth shots with or without flash.

I'm quite happy with an HSS flash now. I felt crippled not having a capable flash with my fuji. Now I have absolutely zero excuses for lack of IQ with my fuji gear.


5Dmkiv |5Dmkiii | 80D | 24LmkII | 35mm f/2 IS | 85 mkII L | 100L | EF-S 10-22 | 16-35L mkII | 24-70 f/2.8L mkii| 70-200 f/2.8 ISL mkII| 600EX-RT x2 | 580 EX II x2 | Einstein's
Fuji X-T2 w/battery booster | 16mm f/1.4 | 56 f/1.2 | 10-24 f/4.0 | 55-200 | EF-X500

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Two ­ Hot ­ Shoes
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Post has been last edited 8 months ago by Two Hot Shoes. 6 edits done in total.
Apr 08, 2017 06:29 |  #4

HSS on Fuji is a nice addition, particularly for events so I hope the EF-X500 works out for you. I've yet to pick one up [$$$] so love to hear how you get on.

I also dig the little flash on the X-E2, such a versatile little thing even shooting direct on it works great, once you set your setting out to give the right light. Without light there is no photograph and I doubt anyone can really tell if the shot was taken on a H5D or an iPhone 5 once you print them out. As long as you light the scene correctly. I think Kevin Good did this test quite well.





The big appeal for me with using Fuji is the lack of having to bang off with a big camera & an oversized flash mounted on top. People react much differently at first when i ask them about grabbing a shot or they simply don't notice, it's just easier. I think I might have posted this already but you can clearly see the detail on his watch in this shot, taken at 12800 [1/100 @ f/1.4] so very little available light. I think it says loads about how good Fuji's new cameras are at high ISO, now I wouldn't be submitting it to a glossy mag but printed out it looks great anyway. Available light shoot can be difficult at times, trying to find the right light and all that so bringing your own is a must, even if it is a little gn20 on top of the camera for fill. I even think the EF-X8 works well once you balance it correctly.

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2877/33770942616_10b0b236a5_z.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/TsdU​Fj] (external link)SOOC Acros JPEG at 12800 ISO (external link) by Kim Farrelly (external link), on Flickr

Fuji: X-PRO2, X-T1, X-E2 | 16/1.4, 18/2, 23/1.4, 35/1.4, 56/1.2, 90/2, 16-55/2.8, 10-24/4. AD600BM, TT865F, AL-H198, ThinkTank AS2, Peli1514, Ona Bowery, Matthews Grip
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Two ­ Hot ­ Shoes
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Post has been edited 8 months ago by Two Hot Shoes.
Apr 08, 2017 06:36 |  #5

This was with the little flash that came with the X-T1 on top of the X-PRO2 perfect bit of 'pop' in his face. It's was bright though, it would be a very different look if it were dark in the café, but then I wouldn't need any HSS if it was dark enough for my my ISO to be at 6400 to expose correctly I could shoot at, say, 1/30 and flash the scene getting a nice ambient drag into the camera and a sharp well lit subject. Plenty of choice for flash in this kind of light.

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8472/29700107982_f1de6b0bd8_z.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/MfuP​nh] (external link)Alex (external link) by Kim Farrelly (external link), on Flickr


Here is one at 1/15 using my X-E1, just taken to show someone about shutter drag and flash, manual focus on my old Zeiss 35mm. Subject it lit and sharp with plenty of light in the background.

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7611/16836923029_c13a533321_z.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/rDPC​Cn] (external link)Andy (external link) by Kim Farrelly (external link), on Flickr

I'm waiting for the end of this year to re-up on lights as there are promises of full Fuji support from all the big players in the flash market including Godox, Profoto & Elinchrom. Now if only Broncolor would get on board then I could use the absolute best artificial light available to a photographer today & not some cheap flash unit.

Fuji: X-PRO2, X-T1, X-E2 | 16/1.4, 18/2, 23/1.4, 35/1.4, 56/1.2, 90/2, 16-55/2.8, 10-24/4. AD600BM, TT865F, AL-H198, ThinkTank AS2, Peli1514, Ona Bowery, Matthews Grip
flickr (external link)Instagram (external link)Blog (external link)

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AlanU
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Apr 08, 2017 10:57 |  #6

Two Hot shoes,

I'm a creature of habit and need HSS for many things I shoot. Yesterday I did a voluntary photo shoot for my kid's elementary school in the playground. The EF-X500 worked well but my gut feel is that my Canon produces more watt seconds of light in HSS vs Fuji. I was not pushing the flash that hard yet it seems I had to ride the FEC a little harder than my Canon flashes. The Jury is still in because I haven't tested the flash thoroughly enough yet.

Do I like this flash??? Yes!! it's in your face easy to navigate. I can throw on this flash and use the bright LED as a light for video if I must. Also I can see it helpful for Macro shots.

I think there's some incompatibility issues with the physical shoe for my cactus triggers. HSS does not work when it's on the shoe of my trigger when shooting TTL pass through :( I gave up trying after an hour.

I will without a doubt admit the IQ with flash is so pleasant!!! If my Canon produced this identical IQ I'd be over the moon. My work I do with Canon is more typical to me while the fuji files have something special. In my particular case my Canon still delivers 100% what I need. I've been working on making the Fuji do the same but it's just not there yet for me. However I'll incorporate my fuji alot more now :)

I got my Fuji flash for aprox $334 USD :) it's nice to have connections :) I just need to get another one for redundancy. Even though this flash is made in China the build quality is top notch. Mind you the feel of the grip on the flash is fantastic.....I think it's UGLY :)

One thing I will say is BE CAREFUL!! There is a very high chance of dropping the camera as the balance of flash and body is "MEH". The grip is very small on the X-T2 and does not give me confidence especially that I use a spider holster with no neck strap. It definitely feels like you can easily have the camera slip out of your hands.


5Dmkiv |5Dmkiii | 80D | 24LmkII | 35mm f/2 IS | 85 mkII L | 100L | EF-S 10-22 | 16-35L mkII | 24-70 f/2.8L mkii| 70-200 f/2.8 ISL mkII| 600EX-RT x2 | 580 EX II x2 | Einstein's
Fuji X-T2 w/battery booster | 16mm f/1.4 | 56 f/1.2 | 10-24 f/4.0 | 55-200 | EF-X500

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EverydayGetaway
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Apr 08, 2017 19:41 |  #7

AlanU wrote in post #18322471 (external link)
I definitely need a flash that can manipulate light by bouncing. Direct flash even for casual shots is not something I can use.

That's kind of my point about a wireless EF-X20, I'd then be able to just hold it off camera and bounce it wherever I want. The current EF-X20 can be used in this manor but only as a slave to another flash (like the on board flash) which isn't always ideal.

Also, you skipped over the fact that I said the X-E2 flash IS bounce able, something I used it for all the time.


As a photographer I choose the best possible solutions for light. I think a very high percentage of people lack knowledge in mastering the techniques of bouncing flash. I urge people to be adventurous in seeking max IQ by experimenting and learning new skills. I'd take a flash over making excuses wishing my photos looked better.

With all do respect, someone could say the exact same thing in regards to someone who claims natural light shots can't be done to the same pedigree. To me subject and content of a photo will always trump technical IQ, as I pointed out before my (and many others) style of photography is often not conducive to using flash.

My story of taking photos of an indoor group shot is true. I was quite taken back that the iphone 7 plus did a great job using it's tiny flash. The small iphone sensor has much more dof that all of the people in the group shot was relatively in focus. The fuji struggled at iso 6400 using f/1.4. Yes I used the iphone 7 plus first and felt it was good enough. The fuji of course had shallow dof issues with soft blurry people in the group shot. Stopping down the aperture would have furthered the ugly image quality on my fuji. If I had my EF-X500 I would have created pro photos effortlessly.

Again, would love to see those examples ;)

I'll use a prime when I feel I can get away with it using available light. I'll take the "flash look" for events as the IQ will still be better than a noisy soft motion blur image. I'm a natural light shooter as well as flash. I use long prime/zooms for stealth shots with or without flash.

As I pointed out above, this isn't always the ideal solution. What if you want a wide shot up close of a subject with out attracting their attention? Just one example.

I'm quite happy with an HSS flash now. I felt crippled not having a capable flash with my fuji. Now I have absolutely zero excuses for lack of IQ with my fuji gear.

My response in bold.


Fuji X-Pro2 // Fuji X-T1 // Fuji X-100T // XF 18mm f2 // XF 35mm f1.4 // XF 60mm f2.4 // Rokinon 12mm f2 // Rokinon 21mm f1.4 // XF 18-55mm f/2.8-4 // XF 55-200mm f3.5-4.8 // Rokinon 85mm f1.4 // Zhonghi Lensturbo ii // Various adapted MF lenses
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Talley
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Apr 08, 2017 20:15 |  #8

I never in a minute would think a good decently powered speedlight would ever balance good on a fuji. My one and only hangup for the fuji system. When I want to bounceflash I'll grab the 5D.


5D4 |12mm 2.8 FE | 16-35L 2.8 III | Σ 35A | Σ 50A | Σ 85A | 200 F2 IS | 1.4xIII
X-T20 | X-E3 | 18/2 | 35/1.4 | 56/1.2 | 18-135
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AlanU
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Apr 09, 2017 04:40 |  #9

Everyday,

The X-E2 is capable of bouncing flash but only straight up. This to me is better than direct flash but this does not create dynamic lighting. Using a Foam sheet, spinlight 360, joe demb flip it, Rogue flash bender is miles better than a tiny onboard flash pointing upwards. The products I mentioned can point the external flash anywhere as well as pointing up. This way you can have directional light sideways. Since your prepping to shoot a wedding I'd urge you to learn how to bounce light. Read the website "Tangents"

http://neilvn.com/tang​ents/ (external link)

Certainly a Master of bouncing flash is something that becomes second nature.

What I notice a lot is black/white photos can be used as a crutch to hide improper white balance issues or when improper exposure (lost details due to blown highlights etc) was used when the photo was taken. If the photo has a lot of grain due to a sensor limitation using black/white can help hide what the "non photographer" is familiar in critiquing a coloured photo. Also there are gifted photographer's that simply use black/white as their work flow (Jeff Ascough).

Here's an example of b/w from my wife's iphone 7. Due to the deeper dof and b/w you can have more in focus. The iphone 7 photo using 5x7 would probably look better than my imperfect fuji image i took.

The $3000+ fuji combo at 1/40 SS and iso 6400, no flash cannot get details back do to less dof. I guess I should have shot this photo at 12800 but that to me is already a written off image due to poor quality.

If I had a fuji flash in the first place a simple group shot like this would be a perfect simple tack sharp group shot. The fact that I used no flash with my fuji and the low light situation I had no choice but to use shallower dof softening some people. I actually used my wife's iphone 7 first seeing the "barely good enough results". I used the fuji afterwards for the sake of experimentation seeing how far I can go with iso 6400.


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Shooting available light during a reception may raise some brows as I'd be certain issues with lost details due to extremely high iso images. People look at the end product with no photographer whispering why the photos did not turn out that great ;)

As I mentioned many people lack bounced flash technique. As you can see many people use Fong lightsphere's and stofen caps thinking it softens light. This is a perfect example of lacking bounced flash technique and knowledge.

The photographer's responsibility is to capture emotional content and composition. During this time also concentrating on producing fantastic image quality better than Uncle Bob with a Nikon D810, Sony A7Rmk2, Canon 5dmk4 etc. Having capable gear is one thing but also capturing a moment is crucial.

I will say I now can use my fuji X-T2 with even a cheap mediocre EF-42 with joe demb flipit (rogue flash bender or even black or white foam sheet) in low light taking photos of a large group. With flash it will be 100% better than any X-pro2/X-T2 shooting "natural light" at a high iso at f/5.6 (more dof for group shot). As a paid photographer not using a flash would be extremely unprofessional as you would not be assuring your clients a high standard of quality.

Photo journalistic style / stealth shooting using no flash is obviously ideal. However if your an events photographer this is not your bulk of your job of documenting an event.

I've had alot of discussion with friends that shoot natural light. I love shooting natural light but I cannot kid myself thinking I can shoot an event with a decent performing high iso fuji body with no flash. Shooting fast primes with shallow dof with high iso will blur and miss the surroundings providing less story telling to some degree. Stopping down aperture and shallow dof is a balance of different flavours in "look" while story telling. Also concentrating on proper exposure of human subject can easily blow out the highlights/details in the background. Balancing flash you can get intentional background detail as well as proper exposure of the subject. This is where a natural light shooter cannot control both subject and background exposure at the same time.

Getting back to ergonomics of the EF-X500. The X-T2 body with this flash is imbalanced. The flash is top heavy and the tiny grip of the X-T2 does not feel secure. I must get use to this setup but now I will probably use my fuji with neck strap rather than shooting tetherless with my spider holster.

My Canon 80D with Cactus V6 on shoe and 580EXii feels more balanced than my X-T2 with EF-X500.

5Dmkiv |5Dmkiii | 80D | 24LmkII | 35mm f/2 IS | 85 mkII L | 100L | EF-S 10-22 | 16-35L mkII | 24-70 f/2.8L mkii| 70-200 f/2.8 ISL mkII| 600EX-RT x2 | 580 EX II x2 | Einstein's
Fuji X-T2 w/battery booster | 16mm f/1.4 | 56 f/1.2 | 10-24 f/4.0 | 55-200 | EF-X500

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Talley
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Apr 09, 2017 09:01 |  #10

AlanU wrote in post #18323229 (external link)
I've had alot of discussion with friends that shoot natural light. I love shooting natural light but I cannot kid myself thinking I can shoot an event with a decent performing high iso fuji body with no flash. Shooting fast primes with shallow dof with high iso will blur and miss the surroundings providing less story telling to some degree. Stopping down aperture and shallow dof is a balance of different flavours in "look" while story telling. Also concentrating on proper exposure of human subject can easily blow out the highlights/details in the background. Balancing flash you can get intentional background detail as well as proper exposure of the subject. This is where a natural light shooter cannot control both subject and background exposure at the same time.

I hate the mass "moms" that get cameras and are now natural light photographers and they slam some presets on the images and some fake sunset blowouts and such yet I see alot of poor white balance and blown highlights....

it's getting old really.


5D4 |12mm 2.8 FE | 16-35L 2.8 III | Σ 35A | Σ 50A | Σ 85A | 200 F2 IS | 1.4xIII
X-T20 | X-E3 | 18/2 | 35/1.4 | 56/1.2 | 18-135
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EverydayGetaway
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Post has been last edited 8 months ago by EverydayGetaway. 3 edits done in total.
Apr 09, 2017 12:51 |  #11

[QUOTE=AlanU;18323229]​Everyday,

The X-E2 is capable of bouncing flash but only straight up. This to me is better than direct flash but this does not create dynamic lighting. Using a Foam sheet, spinlight 360, joe demb flip it, Rogue flash bender is miles better than a tiny onboard flash pointing upwards. The products I mentioned can point the external flash anywhere as well as pointing up. This way you can have directional light sideways. Since your prepping to shoot a wedding I'd urge you to learn how to bounce light. Read the website "Tangents"

I never claimed the X-E2's flash was an excellent solution, I pointed out that it's a very useful and often underappreciated tool... which it is. You can also bounce it off walls by shooting in portrait mode, as I did with it frequently.

http://neilvn.com/tang​ents/ (external link)

Certainly a Master of bouncing flash is something that becomes second nature.

What I notice a lot is black/white photos can be used as a crutch to hide improper white balance issues or when improper exposure (lost details due to blown highlights etc) was used when the photo was taken. If the photo has a lot of grain due to a sensor limitation using black/white can help hide what the "non photographer" is familiar in critiquing a coloured photo. Also there are gifted photographer's that simply use black/white as their work flow (Jeff Ascough).

Here's an example of b/w from my wife's iphone 7. Due to the deeper dof and b/w you can have more in focus. The iphone 7 photo using 5x7 would probably look better than my imperfect fuji image i took.

The $3000+ fuji combo at 1/40 SS and iso 6400, no flash cannot get details back do to less dof. I guess I should have shot this photo at 12800 but that to me is already a written off image due to poor quality.

If I had a fuji flash in the first place a simple group shot like this would be a perfect simple tack sharp group shot. The fact that I used no flash with my fuji and the low light situation I had no choice but to use shallower dof softening some people. I actually used my wife's iphone 7 first seeing the "barely good enough results". I used the fuji afterwards for the sake of experimentation seeing how far I can go with iso 6400.


thumbnailHosted photo: posted by AlanU in
./showthread.php?p=183​23229&i=i14339954
forum: Fuji Digital Cameras

thumbnailHosted photo: posted by AlanU in
./showthread.php?p=183​23229&i=i198874473
forum: Fuji Digital Cameras


OK, so if the only reason the iPhone shot was better was due to the flash, why would you not just use the iPhone's flash (which is just an LED flash light) to light the Fuji shot? I've used my phone's "flash" to light shots from my main camera while out and about on several occasions... a perfect example of understanding the tools you have access to. Here's an example from my friends out on Halloween with me, I just held my cameras "flash" off camera to the right

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5811/22099171463_deffc6897d_b.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/zEQ2​KD] (external link)DSC08441.jpg (external link) by Lucas (external link), on Flickr

Shooting available light during a reception may raise some brows as I'd be certain issues with lost details due to extremely high iso images. People look at the end product with no photographer whispering why the photos did not turn out that great ;)

People can whisper all they want, in the end if the client is happy, then I am happy. There are plenty of great wedding photographer's who seldom use flash, Kevin Mullins is a great example of this. Moreover, I NEVER said I don't think flash is important... I use it frequently, but it's one tool in my bag and not a necessity for every shot (as you seem to be claiming).


As I mentioned many people lack bounced flash technique. As you can see many people use Fong lightsphere's and stofen caps thinking it softens light. This is a perfect example of lacking bounced flash technique and knowledge.

You keep bringing up this bounced flash technique as though you're suggesting that I don't know how to bounce flash... I'm not sure if you're being intentionally condescending or what, but I use bounce flash and off camera flash all the time... so I'm not sure what you're really getting at.

The photographer's responsibility is to capture emotional content and composition. During this time also concentrating on producing fantastic image quality better than Uncle Bob with a Nikon D810, Sony A7Rmk2, Canon 5dmk4 etc. Having capable gear is one thing but also capturing a moment is crucial.

I underlined the first and last sentence because I agree, those are what's crucial. Which has been my point from the beginning... very often a flash is not conducive to capturing the moments and subject matter that I want and I think that's the case for many people who have adopted a mirrorless system. Also, to suggest that you can't possibly have better IQ than an average Joe with a nice DLSR by not using flash is laughable to me. I've been to MANY different events and brought only my X-E2,
X-E1, X100T or even my old EOS M and turned out having more requests and more features of my shots than any of the other people who went to those same events with their FF DSLRs. Understanding your gear and knowing how to capture the moment in the most effective way are for more important than what gear you're actually using.


I will say I now can use my fuji X-T2 with even a cheap mediocre EF-42 with joe demb flipit (rogue flash bender or even black or white foam sheet) in low light taking photos of a large group. With flash it will be 100% better than any X-pro2/X-T2 shooting "natural light" at a high iso at f/5.6 (more dof for group shot). As a paid photographer not using a flash would be extremely unprofessional as you would not be assuring your clients a high standard of quality.

What's interesting to me is that almost (possibly not even almost, possibly every) example you've given has been for a group shot... of course flash is better for a group shot... who even ever suggested it wouldn't be?

And here we go again with the back-handed comment about professionalism... my client chose me as their photographer after viewing an extensive portfolio, in fact they asked for me specifically through a friend because they liked my work. So tell me again how it's "extremely unprofessional" to give them the exact quality that they hired me for?


Photo journalistic style / stealth shooting using no flash is obviously ideal. However if your an events photographer this is not your bulk of your job of documenting an event.

According to who? This depends entirely on what the client and what the photographer are looking for. Who hires or takes a job without knowing the details of what is expected or the style of the photographer who's doing the job? This fault would lie on the client who hired the photographer more than it would the photographer in my opinion.

I've had alot of discussion with friends that shoot natural light. I love shooting natural light but I cannot kid myself thinking I can shoot an event with a decent performing high iso fuji body with no flash. Shooting fast primes with shallow dof with high iso will blur and miss the surroundings providing less story telling to some degree. Stopping down aperture and shallow dof is a balance of different flavours in "look" while story telling. Also concentrating on proper exposure of human subject can easily blow out the highlights/details in the background. Balancing flash you can get intentional background detail as well as proper exposure of the subject. This is where a natural light shooter cannot control both subject and background exposure at the same time.

Again, where does this assumption that it has to be one extreme or the other even come from? I'll have multiple flashes with me for event coverage, doesn't mean I'll use them or need them for a majority of my shots. For the vast majority of shots that I take, flash isn't necessary because it doesn't fit in with my style of shooting.

My Canon 80D with Cactus V6 on shoe and 580EXii feels more balanced than my X-T2 with EF-X500.

Again, I just don't get the "balance" argument, clearly subjective and if it bothers you then it bothers you, but I used my X-Pro2 with XF 35/1.4 and a YN560iii with a Rouge Flashbender for a few hours when I shot my mom and step dad's 10 year anniversary party and not once did the "balance" bother me. In fact the only thing that bothered me was the extra attention and gaze I gathered by having such a noticeably large flash/camera setup than my naked X-Pro2, made it much harder to capture people being natural.

My responses again in bold.

Talley wrote in post #18323320 (external link)
I hate the mass "moms" that get cameras and are now natural light photographers and they slam some presets on the images and some fake sunset blowouts and such yet I see alot of poor white balance and blown highlights....

it's getting old really.

Why do you "hate" that? So because they want to make an attempt at getting shots they like of their kids they're somehow beneath the rest of us? People like that only bother me when they make the assumption that they can now charge people for their shots (which is rare) or when they don't understand that there's more to it than the camera they choose. As a coach I know lots of the moms that you're referring to and every one of them acknowledges that there's much more to it than the camera and often ask me for advice on how to improve their shots.


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AlanU
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Apr 09, 2017 13:29 |  #12

Everyday,

I've seen natural light shooters work where they attempt to shoot an entire large group without flash. These are self-proclaimed natural light shooters that are shooting professionally locally to me. This is where my subjective critique finds these no flash photos amateur. I'll admit the only photo that turn out well for them is the fast primes limiting small number of people in the photo.

It is unprofessional to have blurry images or misfocused subjects in a group shot. I push the limits of my Fuji in terrible conditions and I failed as I should've used and higher ISO but produce soft and unprofessional looking photos that uncle Bob could've taken with expensive smaller sensor point and shoot. As you can see on print the black and white iPhone photo would look better than my Fuji combo with no flash. You probably thought I wouldn't post the photos LOL ! Clearly the iPhone photo was more useable which my wife with no experience in photography could've easily taken.

So how is a self proclaimed natural light shooter supposed to get group shots without using flash? Not my concern as I never have issues like this as I always incorporate flash when I need to.

I continually analyze my photos and regardless of casual or professional they are always tack sharp and in focus with the composition "my style ". Every photo I ever post will always be up to my standards as this is a visual representation of my work. This is the reason why I needed the flash for my Fuji system to a sure more universal application to my secondary system.

A friend of mine that shoots weddings was laughing saying how well an iPhone 7 can capture a candid moments. This day and age anyone shooting professional he has to step up their game to assure that they capture both emotion and extremely high-quality image quality that is not blurry or soft.

This is not a debate as it is not my concern how other photographers gain
their clients.


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Talley
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Apr 09, 2017 14:01 |  #13

[QUOTE=EverydayGetaway​;18323472][QUOTE=AlanU​;18323229]Everyday,

The X-E2 is capable of bouncing flash but only straight up. This to me is better than direct flash but this does not create dynamic lighting. Using a Foam sheet, spinlight 360, joe demb flip it, Rogue flash bender is miles better than a tiny onboard flash pointing upwards. The products I mentioned can point the external flash anywhere as well as pointing up. This way you can have directional light sideways. Since your prepping to shoot a wedding I'd urge you to learn how to bounce light. Read the website "Tangents"

I never claimed the X-E2's flash was an excellent solution, I pointed out that it's a very useful and often underappreciated tool... which it is. You can also bounce it off walls by shooting in portrait mode, as I did with it frequently.

http://neilvn.com/tang​ents/ (external link)

Certainly a Master of bouncing flash is something that becomes second nature.

What I notice a lot is black/white photos can be used as a crutch to hide improper white balance issues or when improper exposure (lost details due to blown highlights etc) was used when the photo was taken. If the photo has a lot of grain due to a sensor limitation using black/white can help hide what the "non photographer" is familiar in critiquing a coloured photo. Also there are gifted photographer's that simply use black/white as their work flow (Jeff Ascough).

Here's an example of b/w from my wife's iphone 7. Due to the deeper dof and b/w you can have more in focus. The iphone 7 photo using 5x7 would probably look better than my imperfect fuji image i took.

The $3000+ fuji combo at 1/40 SS and iso 6400, no flash cannot get details back do to less dof. I guess I should have shot this photo at 12800 but that to me is already a written off image due to poor quality.

If I had a fuji flash in the first place a simple group shot like this would be a perfect simple tack sharp group shot. The fact that I used no flash with my fuji and the low light situation I had no choice but to use shallower dof softening some people. I actually used my wife's iphone 7 first seeing the "barely good enough results". I used the fuji afterwards for the sake of experimentation seeing how far I can go with iso 6400.

thumbnailHosted photo: posted by AlanU in
./showthread.php?p=183​23229&i=i14339954
forum: Fuji Digital Cameras

thumbnailHosted photo: posted by AlanU in
./showthread.php?p=183​23229&i=i198874473
forum: Fuji Digital Cameras


OK, so if the only reason the iPhone shot was better was due to the flash, why would you not just use the iPhone's flash (which is just an LED flash light) to light the Fuji shot? I've used my phone's "flash" to light shots from my main camera while out and about on several occasions... a perfect example of understanding the tools you have access to. Here's an example from my friends out on Halloween with me, I just held my cameras "flash" off camera to the right

IMAGE: https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5811/22099171463_deffc6897d_b.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/zEQ2​KD] (external link)DSC08441.jpg (external link) by Lucas (external link), on Flickr

Shooting available light during a reception may raise some brows as I'd be certain issues with lost details due to extremely high iso images. People look at the end product with no photographer whispering why the photos did not turn out that great ;)

People can whisper all they want, in the end if the client is happy, then I am happy. There are plenty of great wedding photographer's who seldom use flash, Kevin Mullins is a great example of this. Moreover, I NEVER said I don't think flash is important... I use it frequently, but it's one tool in my bag and not a necessity for every shot (as you seem to be claiming).


As I mentioned many people lack bounced flash technique. As you can see many people use Fong lightsphere's and stofen caps thinking it softens light. This is a perfect example of lacking bounced flash technique and knowledge.

You keep bringing up this bounced flash technique as though you're suggesting that I don't know how to bounce flash... I'm not sure if you're being intentionally condescending or what, but I use bounce flash and off camera flash all the time... so I'm not sure what you're really getting at.

The photographer's responsibility is to capture emotional content and composition. During this time also concentrating on producing fantastic image quality better than Uncle Bob with a Nikon D810, Sony A7Rmk2, Canon 5dmk4 etc. Having capable gear is one thing but also capturing a moment is crucial.

I underlined the first and last sentence because I agree, those are what's crucial. Which has been my point from the beginning... very often a flash is not conducive to capturing the moments and subject matter that I want and I think that's the case for many people who have adopted a mirrorless system. Also, to suggest that you can't possibly have better IQ than an average Joe with a nice DLSR by not using flash is laughable to me. I've been to MANY different events and brought only my X-E2,
X-E1, X100T or even my old EOS M and turned out having more requests and more features of my shots than any of the other people who went to those same events with their FF DSLRs. Understanding your gear and knowing how to capture the moment in the most effective way are for more important than what gear you're actually using.


I will say I now can use my fuji X-T2 with even a cheap mediocre EF-42 with joe demb flipit (rogue flash bender or even black or white foam sheet) in low light taking photos of a large group. With flash it will be 100% better than any X-pro2/X-T2 shooting "natural light" at a high iso at f/5.6 (more dof for group shot). As a paid photographer not using a flash would be extremely unprofessional as you would not be assuring your clients a high standard of quality.

What's interesting to me is that almost (possibly not even almost, possibly every) example you've given has been for a group shot... of course flash is better for a group shot... who even ever suggested it wouldn't be?

And here we go again with the back-handed comment about professionalism... my client chose me as their photographer after viewing an extensive portfolio, in fact they asked for me specifically through a friend because they liked my work. So tell me again how it's "extremely unprofessional" to give them the exact quality that they hired me for?


Photo journalistic style / stealth shooting using no flash is obviously ideal. However if your an events photographer this is not your bulk of your job of documenting an event.

According to who? This depends entirely on what the client and what the photographer are looking for. Who hires or takes a job without knowing the details of what is expected or the style of the photographer who's doing the job? This fault would lie on the client who hired the photographer more than it would the photographer in my opinion.

I've had alot of discussion with friends that shoot natural light. I love shooting natural light but I cannot kid myself thinking I can shoot an event with a decent performing high iso fuji body with no flash. Shooting fast primes with shallow dof with high iso will blur and miss the surroundings providing less story telling to some degree. Stopping down aperture and shallow dof is a balance of different flavours in "look" while story telling. Also concentrating on proper exposure of human subject can easily blow out the highlights/details in the background. Balancing flash you can get intentional background detail as well as proper exposure of the subject. This is where a natural light shooter cannot control both subject and background exposure at the same time.

Again, where does this assumption that it has to be one extreme or the other even come from? I'll have multiple flashes with me for event coverage, doesn't mean I'll use them or need them for a majority of my shots. For the vast majority of shots that I take, flash isn't necessary because it doesn't fit in with my style of shooting.

My Canon 80D with Cactus V6 on shoe and 580EXii feels more balanced than my X-T2 with EF-X500.

Again, I just don't get the "balance" argument, clearly subjective and if it bothers you then it bothers you, but I used my X-Pro2 with XF 35/1.4 and a YN560iii with a Rouge Flashbender for a few hours when I shot my mom and step dad's 10 year anniversary party and not once did the "balance" bother me. In fact the only thing that bothered me was the extra attention and gaze I gathered by having such a noticeably large flash/camera setup than my naked X-Pro2, made it much harder to capture people being natural.

My responses again in bold.

Why do you "hate" that? So because they want to make an attempt at getting shots they like of their kids they're somehow beneath the rest of us? People like that only bother me when they make the assumption that they can now charge people for their shots (which is rare) or when they don't understand that there's more to it than the camera they choose. As a coach I know lots of the moms that you're referring to and every one of them acknowledges that there's much more to it than the camera and often ask me for advice on how to improve their shots.

What I meant by my comment was moms who start taking photos and charge like a pro but do not have one sense of knowledge of flashing techniques

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EverydayGetaway
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Joined Oct 2012
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Post has been edited 8 months ago by EverydayGetaway.
Apr 09, 2017 14:06 |  #14

[QUOTE=AlanU;18323504]​Everyday,

I've seen natural light shooters work where they attempt to shoot an entire large group without flash. These are self-proclaimed natural light shooters that are shooting professionally locally to me. This is where my subjective critique finds these no flash photos amateur. I'll admit the only photo that turn out well for them is the fast primes limiting small number of people in the photo.

It is unprofessional to have blurry images or misfocused subjects in a group shot. I push the limits of my Fuji in terrible conditions and I failed as I should've used and higher ISO but produce soft and unprofessional looking photos that uncle Bob could've taken with expensive smaller sensor point and shoot. As you can see on print the black and white iPhone photo would look better than my Fuji combo with no flash. You probably thought I wouldn't post the photos LOL ! Clearly the iPhone photo was more useable which my wife with no experience in photography could've easily taken.

Again... who's debating group shots in this thread? I hoped you would post the photos so I could see the differences myself, and as I suspected the iPhone shot isn't much (if any) better than the Fuji shot to my eyes, and again, I fail to see why you couldn't have gotten the better shot with the Fuji by stopping down a bit and using higher ISO or using the iPhone's light as a flash for your Fuji, this isn't an example of Fuji's failure in my opinion...

As for iPhones with flashes being better than a Fuji without flash... I don't buy it. Nor did any of the other coaches who took this same shot using their phones and then asked me to grab my X-E2 out of my locker


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[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/PDDq​UQ] (external link)DSCF8373.jpg (external link) by Lucas (external link), on Flickr

So how is a self proclaimed natural light shooter supposed to get group shots without using flash? Not my concern as I never have issues like this as I always incorporate flash when I need to.

As do I... again, this was never even part of the discussion until you injected it into it...

I continually analyze my photos and regardless of casual or professional they are always tack sharp and in focus with the composition "my style ". Every photo I ever post will always be up to my standards as this is a visual representation of my work. This is the reason why I needed the flash for my Fuji system to a sure more universal application to my secondary system.

A friend of mine that shoots weddings was laughing saying how well an iPhone 7 can capture a candid moments. This day and age anyone shooting professional he has to step up their game to assure that they capture both emotion and extremely high-quality image quality that is not blurry or soft.

I agree, and a Fuji with or without flash is perfectly capable of both...


This is not a debate as it is not my concern how other photographers gain
their clients.

It wasn't a debate about that until you implied that I would be doing a disservice to my clients by not shooting what you consider to be necessary (even though I never even said anything about how I'd be shooting my upcoming event). Originally all I said was that you don't see flash often on the Fuji forums because many people buy into the Fuji system to shoot candid/documentary style shots where flash isn't always conducive. You seem to be implying that it's because they're too amateur or some such nonsense and I totally disagree.


My responses again in bold.

Fuji X-Pro2 // Fuji X-T1 // Fuji X-100T // XF 18mm f2 // XF 35mm f1.4 // XF 60mm f2.4 // Rokinon 12mm f2 // Rokinon 21mm f1.4 // XF 18-55mm f/2.8-4 // XF 55-200mm f3.5-4.8 // Rokinon 85mm f1.4 // Zhonghi Lensturbo ii // Various adapted MF lenses
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EverydayGetaway
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Post has been edited 8 months ago by EverydayGetaway.
Apr 09, 2017 14:10 |  #15

[QUOTE=Talley;18323527​]

EverydayGetaway wrote in post #18323472 (external link)
What I meant by my comment was moms who start taking photos and charge like a pro but do not have one sense of knowledge of flashing techniques

On that we can agree! Just the other day I was frustrated in my boss' decision to hire a team parent as the photographer for an upcoming Acro meet in our gym... I've seen his shots before, it won't go well. Unfortunately I'll be busy that weekend though, so oh well.

EDIT; lol, weird... looks like we broke the quoting system! :eek:


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