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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Wildlife Talk
Thread started 16 Apr 2017 (Sunday) 12:04
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I'd really like to catch this dude with a real camera

 
drewhh
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Alaska
Apr 20, 2017 12:39 as a reply to post 18333078 |  #16

exactly. and there in lies the problem.

We established a timeline and motive:
-Bear eats suet
-person admits this happens every year with regularity
-person fails to completely remove "attractive nuisance"
-person asks questions in an online forum about how to photograph bear in yard
-person fails to remove the easily removable attractant...again

Don't have to be a lawyer to see how this plays out.


switched to olympus

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Pondrader
"now I'm no rocket scientist but I do get a shot or two"
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Joined Aug 2012
Minden, Ontario, Canada
Apr 20, 2017 13:47 |  #17

DreDaze wrote in post #18333056 (external link)
What is it you think he's doing? He hasn't put out bird food since the bear came, so what is he exactly baiting the bear with?

What your saying Drew is everyone with a bird feeder in Canada and the USA is in fact Illegally baiting Bear's. Your looking like a troll on Facebook. Maybe overreacting
Looks like your trying to relate bear's in an Alaskan small town to life everywhere south of Alaska. I don't think anyone on POTN is looking for a brow beating. We just share images. Just my two cent's


Jeff ........7D Mark II, 7D, 70-300L, 100-400LII
flickr (external link)

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drewhh
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Apr 20, 2017 15:17 as a reply to Pondrader's post |  #18

Thank you, Pondrader, I appreciate your two cents. Perhaps I am overreacting but that is an inaccurate overgeneralization of what I am saying.

There are appropriate times to feed birds and there are inappropriate times to feed birds. According to the law, inappropriate times are when bears will likely get it. in this situation we are well past that. Bears got it. Here's where we could do some actual science. If the feeders with the residue/scent/visual cues gets completely removed would the bears still come so close to human homes?

Forums like this one are meant to improve folk's wildlife photography and that includes getting called out when they are doing something wrong or unethical. I do the same thing when I run into someone acting inappropriately in the field. I call them out.

I would encourage people to get out of their back yards and into one of Pennsylvania's many beautiful public lands to photograph bears. The images will be a lot better and help the image of bears in their natural habitat rather than being reduced to dumpster diving, bird seed raiding, products of human negligence.

That being said I would like to hear more of his side of it. A discussion of what are his impressions of state law? I would like to hear why this is not baiting. I would love to understand the other side of it.

I am also coming at this from someone who knows the implications for that bear. A quick internet search couldn't tell me how many bears are killed in PA in a DLP scenario, correct me if I am wrong, but I bet there are quite a few. How long is before one of the bears brought in by feeders gets hit by a car? Shot by a neighbor? Breaks into someone's garage? Kills a dog? If I've seen it once I have seen it a thousand times and it rarely ends well for the bear.

The overarching question here is whether increasing the risks to that bear are worth some grainy, super high ISO, photo to be shared in some online forum?


switched to olympus

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Pondrader
"now I'm no rocket scientist but I do get a shot or two"
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Joined Aug 2012
Minden, Ontario, Canada
Post has been last edited 7 months ago by Pondrader. 2 edits done in total.
Apr 20, 2017 15:55 |  #19

drewhh wrote in post #18333218 (external link)
Thank you, Pondrader, I appreciate your two cents. Perhaps I am overreacting but that is an inaccurate overgeneralization of what I am saying.

There are appropriate times to feed birds and there are inappropriate times to feed birds. According to the law, inappropriate times are when bears will likely get it. in this situation we are well past that. Bears got it. Here's where we could do some actual science. If the feeders with the residue/scent/visual cues gets completely removed would the bears still come so close to human homes?

Forums like this one are meant to improve folk's wildlife photography and that includes getting called out when they are doing something wrong or unethical. I do the same thing when I run into someone acting inappropriately in the field. I call them out.

I would encourage people to get out of their back yards and into one of Pennsylvania's many beautiful public lands to photograph bears. The images will be a lot better and help the image of bears in their natural habitat rather than being reduced to dumpster diving, bird seed raiding, products of human negligence.

That being said I would like to hear more of his side of it. A discussion of what are his impressions of state law? I would like to hear why this is not baiting. I would love to understand the other side of it.

I am also coming at this from someone who knows the implications for that bear. A quick internet search couldn't tell me how many bears are killed in PA in a DLP scenario, correct me if I am wrong, but I bet there are quite a few. How long is before one of the bears brought in by feeders gets hit by a car? Shot by a neighbor? Breaks into someone's garage? Kills a dog? If I've seen it once I have seen it a thousand times and it rarely ends well for the bear.

The overarching question here is whether increasing the risks to that bear are worth some grainy, super high ISO, photo to be shared in some online forum?

Firstly Drew my name is Jeff. And this is a post and like or not like thread, there is a talk section that this should have been directed to except the conversations on POTN have been happening more on show and shine threads. Unless you've experienced the bear's to the south of Alaska it would be very hard to explain that they are very much different than a Bear that has not been exposed to urban life born and raised. Up there you see a much different animal then say Harrisburg PA. I don't think this is a learning forum here on the wild life thread... Its a sharing thread and most don't like to be accused of endangering wildlife without provocation. I look at your images and can make all kinds of assumptions in regard to bear proximity and point my finger but it would be all conjecture and my best guess and thats just not good enough to make someone feel like they've done something wrong. I too have spent my life in close proximity to bears and have only once had to push the bear out of my house with the barrel of a gun but I have more than once had the yard ripped to peaces by a bear on the look out for food. As far as how the bear ends up thats because of the human in power. Old fashioned ideas need to be revisited and new idea's on how to manage wildlife need to be thought through to better serve both the bear and the human living on the same land. Sorry I could go on for pages. All I can say is throw out old thinking and generate some new ideas or the human will kill everything because he can't let go of yesterdays ways of dealing with this age's old problem. BUT none of it will be solved on the pages of POTN.. Because we are photog's and we chase down wildlife so we can shoot them with our camera's not our gun's. Look up how many were run down by speeding car's and truck's .. Its a way bigger number and a huge long lasting affect on population's of wildlife and to the cost of auto insurance. Seem's if we don't kill um one way we'll kill um another. O and then look for the number's on Seed and bird house's sales in say the US alone. You can't fight that. On farther discussion's I think if you need to ask if bird seed is baiting bear the talk section would be a way better place to start.


Jeff ........7D Mark II, 7D, 70-300L, 100-400LII
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drewhh
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Apr 20, 2017 17:48 as a reply to Pondrader's post |  #20

Thanks, Jeff,
Good point. this conversation is better off the the discussions portion of the forum. I'm not sure how many people actually read them there though. I sometimes forget they are there down at the bottom of the screen.

Please do go on for pages...this is important stuff to talk about in the wildlife photography world (even if it is in the sharing section).

I like your point about about how new ideas in wildlife management are needed. So very true.

Afraid I don't quite understand what you are getting at with the cars and trucks number. As compared to photography? I don't follow. In my mind 1 bear being killed so a photographer can get a shot is too many.

As to the proximity issue, I also agree. Many of my images are easily taken out of context and or taken from what many would be considered too close of range but the fact remains they are all taken within the letter of the law and the norms in the place they were taken. The images we are talking about taking of black bear are, in my opinion, in violation of the law.

I don't think the issue is so easily broken down between north and south. I travel the world looking for bears and the same issues come up in every location where bears and humans are in proximity. Sloth bears in India. Sun bears near palm plantations in Borneo. Polar bears raiding country foods in Nunavut. Black bears breaking into garages in Tahoe. there are universal truths here. At all the bear management conferences when bear professionals get together these are some of the big issues they talk about.

I do disagree with you on the fact that nothing can be solved by things said on POTN. Obviously regulation and advice from the government is not working but perhaps other photogs reminding each other what is right will help. This is where knowledge is exchanged.


I would love to continue this discussion with input from more people but maybe we could move it to the discussions forum.

Since it is the photo sharing section and to prove my hypocrisy here is a photo I took of a 2.5 year old brown bear trying to raid a chicken coop. We used the flash to scare him off back to mom out of a homesteaders unsecured chicken coop.

IMAGE: https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1091/1399400121_2812b06fc3_z.jpg?zz=1
[IMAGE'S LINK: https://flic.kr/p/38Eh​Ui] (external link)spooky dark (external link) by Drew Hamilton (external link), on Flickr

switched to olympus

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jtmiv
THREAD ­ STARTER
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Joined Jan 2013
Harrisburg, PA
Apr 20, 2017 18:07 |  #21

drewhh wrote in post #18333218 (external link)
Thank you, Pondrader, I appreciate your two cents. Perhaps I am overreacting but that is an inaccurate overgeneralization of what I am saying.

There are appropriate times to feed birds and there are inappropriate times to feed birds. According to the law, inappropriate times are when bears will likely get it. in this situation we are well past that. Bears got it. Here's where we could do some actual science. If the feeders with the residue/scent/visual cues gets completely removed would the bears still come so close to human homes?

Forums like this one are meant to improve folk's wildlife photography and that includes getting called out when they are doing something wrong or unethical. I do the same thing when I run into someone acting inappropriately in the field. I call them out.

I would encourage people to get out of their back yards and into one of Pennsylvania's many beautiful public lands to photograph bears. The images will be a lot better and help the image of bears in their natural habitat rather than being reduced to dumpster diving, bird seed raiding, products of human negligence.

That being said I would like to hear more of his side of it. A discussion of what are his impressions of state law? I would like to hear why this is not baiting. I would love to understand the other side of it.

I am also coming at this from someone who knows the implications for that bear. A quick internet search couldn't tell me how many bears are killed in PA in a DLP scenario, correct me if I am wrong, but I bet there are quite a few. How long is before one of the bears brought in by feeders gets hit by a car? Shot by a neighbor? Breaks into someone's garage? Kills a dog? If I've seen it once I have seen it a thousand times and it rarely ends well for the bear.

The overarching question here is whether increasing the risks to that bear are worth some grainy, super high ISO, photo to be shared in some online forum?

Dear Drew,

You see this as an ethical argument and you purposely set out to be accusatory, your words not mine, and I'll admit that you have succeeded.

You presume to know a great deal about me and where I live, but in fact you know absolutely nothing at all. You encourage me to go outside and explore PA wilds lands yet you conveniently ignore the fact that my home literally borders 30,000 acres of wild lands. That may be a small patch by Alaskan standards but down here that is a pretty fair chunk of land. And I could hit an easy 9 iron onto that land. So my backyard is in fact the front yard of our local bear population. But admitting bears don't respect property lines would sort of ruin your argument.

I have lived here for 16 years and we have always had problem bears. But they are only problems for the people who don't live here. My neighbor's and I have no problem sharing the land so to speak. If the bears were as predictable as you make them out to be then it would be easy for me to simply remove my bird feeders at the prescribed time and return them in 2 weeks. But the only predictable thing about our local bears is that they will pass through every Spring and Fall during the times they leave and return to their dens. That has happened around here as early as the full moon in March and as late as the 27th of April. Fall season has been from early November to after Christmas. And you simply cannot predict it by weather. This year I thought bears would show in early March like they did in 2012, for this year my rhododendrons were budding in late February. But it turned colder and we got heavy snow in mid-March so the timing changed.

So we do what neighbors do and we talk. And when one sees the bear or bears then we pass the word. But that doesn't stop them from getting into garbage on trash day, or getting after grills kept on porches or decks. And there are older people in the neighborhood that put out food for stray cats and they get hit too. But we manage and none of us to my knowledge have lost anything of value other than a bird feeder and an occasional damaged shed where bird food and dog food was stored. No one has lost a pet or been harassed by any of the local bears and we don't expect it happen anytime soon because we respect them.

I'll apologize, though I absolutely do not think one is due, for leaving the empty feeder hanging. Next time I'll go as far as to drag the shop vac out and vacuum up the seeds that those pesky messy birds spill. It won't change anything though. The bears were going to come back, and will be back until the hills are covered in green when they will return to their summer homes. That's what our bears do, and they have been doing it like that for generations. The population is growing and will continue to grow and we will continue to manage.

I will admit that I was offended that you implied I was looking for an immediate answer to setting up remote shooting capability for that assumed I did not intend to stop feeding the birds and made it sound like my feeding the birds was merely a guise to bait bears. That hurt because you're dead wrong, but you for damn sure seem to be righteous. And that is a dangerous combination.

In closing my feeders will go up again around May 1st where they will remain until the time to bring them in during the fall migration. I'll lose no sleep over having offended your sensibilities and I suggest you find a choir more favorable to your tone for your next preaching effort because most of the folks here ain't hearing your song.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

Harrisburg, PA :-)


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Sgt.
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Cambridge,Ontario
Apr 20, 2017 18:31 as a reply to drewhh's post |  #22

Wow, your baiting with live chickens?
Shame on you:lol:


Iain
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Another minion in the Pondrader fan club

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drewhh
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Alaska
Apr 22, 2017 20:01 as a reply to Sgt.'s post |  #23

They weren't live for long.


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I'd really like to catch this dude with a real camera
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